Not to really defend Microsoft here - because I've had my own run-ins with their system and agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense.
But this isn't an only-Microsoft problem. Pretty much every big-name mail service provider will employ similar tactics in some capacity. I get it... Microsoft and these big-name mail service providers have a lot of users and a lot of users that complain about spam. But they don't exactly do themselves any favors by working with entities that really want to reduce the abuse on their servers and networks. I fear that eventually the day will come where external mail really won't work... have a gmail address and you want to write somebody at a hotmail address? Tough luck! If you want to send an email to a hotmail address you'll have to sign up for a hotmail address and send your message from your own hotmail address. Etc, etc. If you ask me, it's high-time for a replacement for SMTP to come forward. The replacement can largely operate just like SMTP, but instead of having a who's who of meaningless authentication protocols (SPF, DKIM, DMARC) have some type of standard authentication that all of these SMTP-replacement servers have to follow. I won't pretend to know what all of this might entail. But there's got to be some way we can move forward with all of this. There are just way too many instances of IPs and servers being blocked/blacklisted with no way to challenge those listings and no way to be informed of such listings. Often times it seems like these big-name mail service providers can just block/blacklist IPs on a whim, because who is going to challenge them? On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 12:45 PM André Peters via mailop <[email protected]> wrote: > What is this crap good for when it sends one out of 1000? There was not a > single spam mail that left our system. It was an unwanted mail, not spam > but just a message they did not like. We have hard rate limits and a no > mass mail policy. We also check ridiculously detailed for patterns of spam. > > It's just one of the most stupid systems on this planet that is NOT > working because you MS guys are so clever, no, it's still working because > of its size. No matter who is responsible. That's sad. Really sad. > > > > Am 11.05.2021 um 19:39 schrieb Michael Wise via mailop <[email protected] > >: > > > > > > JMRP doesn’t send every email reported as spam to the sender. > > Last I heard, it was 1 in 1,000 or some such. > > This is to prevent listwashing, as should be obvious. > > > > And just ONE mail sent to the wrong address … well … that can get a whole > lot of IPs blocked if it looks suspicious in the eyes of the investigator. > > > > Aloha, > > Michael. > > -- > > *Michael J Wise* > Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis > > "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." > > Open a ticket for Hotmail <http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkID=614866> > ? > > > > *From:* mailop <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *André Peters > via mailop > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 11, 2021 5:38 AM > *To:* mailop <[email protected]> > *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [mailop] Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - > blacklisted without feedback received > > > > IMO it's a totally useless system. > > > > We have had ASNs blocked without a single complaint prior to it. Not a > single one. > > > > Once every 2-3 month we get a complaint and contact the complaining > person. Out of ~10 times it was only ONCE a mail, that the rcpt did not > want to receive. > > > > If you want to receive mail, don't register with MS. I cannot say this > often enough. > > > > To add a small hint: Try to send ~the same mail volume and don't cause > peaks. Do not send to too many recipients in one session. > > > > Funny enough we receive a lot of spam from MS at the moment... > > > > ------ Originalnachricht ------ > > Von: "Laura Atkins via mailop" <[email protected]> > > An: "mailop" <[email protected]> > > Gesendet: 11.05.2021 14:25:11 > > Betreff: Re: [mailop] Registered @ Microsoft JMRP - blacklisted without > feedback received > > > > Given you are the service provider, the best place to look is in your > abuse queue. Look for complaints about mail from that IP (and surrounding > IPs) going back for a while. Typically, the consumer ISPs will put mail in > the bulk folder for a while before escalating to a block. When the mail is > going to bulk you will not see complaints as users cannot send FBL messages > related to mail in the bulk folder. This means low complaint rates > immediately before a block Do Not Mean that the mail is fine. In fact, it > often means that the mail is already identified as spam. You need to go > back further, to before MS was putting the messages in the bulk folder, in > order to see complaints about it. > > > > Going back over time will give you some information about what customer > and what mail streams were causing problems. That should give you some > insight into which customers you need to address to get the block lifted. > > > > The other place to look is your outbound logs. What are your customers > doing and what types of mail are they sending? Did any customer have an > unexpected spike in volume? This can often indicate a system may have been > compromised and being used to send spam / malware. Sometimes it just means > someone got the idea that sending ‘cold outreach mail’ was a good idea. > > > > Those are the two places I’d start my investigation in your situation. > > > > laura > > > > > > > > On 11 May 2021, at 12:54, Benoit Panizzon via mailop <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > Dear List > > One of our main smtp outbound ip addresses is blocked by microsoft. > > host outlook-com.olc.protection.outlook.com > <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Foutlook-com.olc.protection.outlook.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Ce227ac275eee46e3750c08d9147b3783%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637563341727458285%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=T3kyL8zqeRWlnyExY9AN8jl0dCUwI8a7hUlvCWuU3g0%3D&reserved=0>[104.47.10.33] > said: 550 5.7.1 > Unfortunately, messages from [157.161.12.84] weren't sent. Please > contact > your Internet service provider since part of their network is on our > block > list (S3150). You can also refer your provider to > http://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx#errors > <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmail.live.com%2Fmail%2Ftroubleshooting.aspx%23errors&data=04%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Ce227ac275eee46e3750c08d9147b3783%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637563341727468246%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=zwfCsr1Qy%2F6bP8IYB5llyLQ9YmG5q8l5KNd0yu%2BQavo%3D&reserved=0> > . > [DB5EUR03FT006.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com > <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Feop-eur03.prod.protection.outlook.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Ce227ac275eee46e3750c08d9147b3783%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637563341727468246%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=S2gfOqxJ2QDfCq8jCfVsCCsn9eqP3AHbYG722Z%2FbQLk%3D&reserved=0>] > (in reply to MAIL > FROM command) > > I checked our JMRP entries. This IP is listed as one of our > mailservers. The complaint rate is < 0.1% but it had 2 'trap' hits and > is in status red. > > Our abuse desk email address is registered for the ARF feedback loop > for the ip range in question. > > We usually get a lot of feedback loop emails, mostly false positives of > Mirosoft users mixing up 'junk' with their trash folder or similar, or > moving all their old mail to 'junk' causing an avalanche of complaints > being sent. I opened several cases with Microsoft about this, but never > got any solution offered (as a sidenote rant) > > But no, there were no complaints about: 157.161.12.84 received. > > Does anyone know, how to get hold of the emails that caused this > blocking? > > Mit freundlichen Grüssen > > -Benoît Panizzon- > -- > I m p r o W a r e A G - Leiter Commerce Kunden > ______________________________________________________ > > Zurlindenstrasse 29 Tel +41 61 826 93 00 > CH-4133 Pratteln Fax +41 61 826 93 01 > Schweiz Web http://www.imp.ch > <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imp.ch%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Ce227ac275eee46e3750c08d9147b3783%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637563341727478200%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=xU6D7x4Drl6QB1kaP7HYK2xFBNjQCm4poIObqt0%2BsBg%3D&reserved=0> > ______________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > mailop mailing list > [email protected] > https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop > <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist.mailop.org%2Flistinfo%2Fmailop&data=04%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Ce227ac275eee46e3750c08d9147b3783%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637563341727478200%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=mZsHDzV%2FhJDEqqEjZQNV4Ml4t9XrfmKFLvBKq%2FNXc8Y%3D&reserved=0> > > > > -- > > Having an Email Crisis? We can help! 800 823-9674 > > > > Laura Atkins > > Word to the Wise > > [email protected] > > (650) 437-0741 > > > > Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog > <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwordtothewise.com%2Fblog&data=04%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Ce227ac275eee46e3750c08d9147b3783%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C0%7C0%7C637563341727488162%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=MkkTAJdodsaWRL3WN5UFr8bjfU%2FXTXKNWaCuggfJUNU%3D&reserved=0> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > mailop mailing list > [email protected] > https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop > > _______________________________________________ > mailop mailing list > [email protected] > https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop >
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