Larry Swain scripsit:
 
AMen.  One of the reasons I use Tolkien in a course
 
that deals in European epic literature is because he
 
drew so much from Vergil and Homer.  If I recall
 
correctly, Classical Language and Literature was his
 
first "major" before!  he switched to philology under
 
Sisam.
 
 
 
   Et, mehercules, categoriae histo
riae aliquantum hic
strident:
 
horresco referens monstrum istud quod �European epic
literature� appellas!
 
Europaeae litterae nec revera sunt nec, si vestro
iudicio sint, tamen eundem vultum exhibent et
temporibus et locis. Tolkien animum applicat
philologiae impulsore Sisam ! Sed id quod tu
philologiam vocas rectius philologia Anglorum ad
Medium Aevum pertinens appell! 
 
 
I'll only make a few brief comments to this diatribe. 
First, I used philology in the sense that it was used
in British universities before World War I. 
"Philol
ogy" at that period was used to describe the
nascent field undertaken in English departments by and
large of Indo-European linguistics.  This of course
has changed drastically over the century, but in 1912,
that's the way it was.  I also didn't say "impulsore
Sisam", I said under Sisam.  Kenneth Sisam was
Tolkien's tutor in 1912 and it was during this time
that he migrated from the Classical faculty to the
English faculty.
 
Most of the rest of the message is beside the point. 
Tolkien et al came from a period in which all of
European literature was seen as a continuum, two of
the great works that this generation produced was
Auerbach's Mimesis covering material from the ancient
to the modern world, and Curtius' magnum opus,
European Literature in the Latin Middle Ages which
assumed a continuity between the Classical past and
Medieval literature.  That Tolkien also participated
in this view is apparent to anyone who has read any of
his scholarly  pieces.  That his fiction is influenced
by his scholarly life is also quite well known.  That
he was embued with the Latin and Greek classics is
plain as day.  That the classics, as well as other
sources, influenced his work is easily demonstrated.
 
 
 
 
 
   Si ergo tam multiplex implicatumque est quod
Vergilius Graecis debet, ut qui duas tantum litteras
(latinas et Graecas) docent persaepe Vergilium ab
Homero disiunctum teneant, quo se res habet cum ad
Tolkenium fuga temporum locorumque ducit?
 
So the epic hero died with Vergil eh?  And epic themes
were never dealt with in any subsequent literature? 
And our great epics didn't influence later writers to
mimetic works and scenes?  Please, spare us.
 
An impassioned plea to not do comparative literature
or to engage in studies that cross our dearly held
boundaries.  I'm afraid I'm not going to try and
defend interdisciplinary studies, or interperiod
studies and comparative literature against the fear
that by doing so we have somehow devalued the context
of Vergil or of the study of that context.  The best I
can do at the moment is to invite you to come and sit
in on my class,  perhaps you'll learn something.
 

Larry Swain scripsit:

Most of the rest of the message (scilicet of V. Crupi)is beside the point. 
Tolkien et al came from a period in which all of
European literature was seen as a continuum, two of
the great works that this generation produced was
Auerbach's Mimesis covering material from the ancient
to the modern world, and Curtius' magnum opus,
European Literature in the Latin Middle Ages which
assumed a continuity between the Classical past and
Medieval literature.  That Tolkien also participated
in this view is apparent to anyone who has read any of
his scholarly  pieces.  That his fiction is influenced
by his scholarly life is also quite well known.  That
he was embued with the Latin and Greek classics is
plain as day.  That the classics, as well as other
sources, influenced his work is easily demonstrated.
 

Veritas certissima in istis verbis! Auerbachii Curtiique opera perlegi ego quoque admodum tunc adulescens , nec  Americae tantum ea �incolae sunt� (ut callidissima fraudem iunctura Leofrancum nostrum!). Tolkien certe iis temporibus vixit: sed hoc docendum cui docenda Vergilii opera sunt? Cum haec discipuli noverint, tanta adrogantia  a Magistris imbuti, non modo   quo �Imperium� a �Re publica�secernant carent, sed quamobrem legissent  nesciunt nisi quia in aula tanti magistri sederent cumque tanto sub magistro subeundum iis foret periculum! A quo  �divom pater atque hominum rex� me sevocavit!  Vae iis qui cum Auerbach et Curtius non sunt, tamquam essent vivunt! Dubito quin Auerbach Tolkien cum Vergilio miscuisset si umquam Vergilium legisset.  Historia litterarum fraudati discipuli ad historiam litterarum in insignibus operibus legendis, per semitas tam angustas coguntur et tortuosas  , sine instrumento, sine possessione sermonis quoque auctoris? Haec schola tua!  Quianam legerent discipuli textus ergo, ut istas tam manifestas �veritates� inveniant? Ut Tolkien iste, scilicet staturae maximae auctor, apud Vergilium ponatur, scilicet tam magnae staturae ut sine eo Litterae non stent!

   Revera Tolkien iste vester mediocris philologus et scriptor simul fuit, ita ut nec tam irrita philologia eius operas insulsas et falsas sustineat, nec operae tam insulsae ( quae nulli placere possunt nisi adolescentibus seu istis pilosis ministris et scribis et  �professional�, ut bene ais!) tam vanam iustificent philologiam! Hoc sensus omnis sermonis mei.

 Post Maximos et veneratos Lindsay et Wilson haec philologia Britannica abutitur lingua?  Quia non tibi proponis cum Walt Disney quoque dramatum personis legere Vergilium? Utinam ussissent Varius et Tucca Aeneidem antequam tam insulsi �professional� Nonio Marcello digni divina sua legerent verba, ut �insolenter solent�!

   Diversi nobis sunt sermones, non quia mihi italorum barbarumque adrogantium tibi; sed quia  tam comprehensus temeritate adrogantiaque es ut ante te Latine dici non possit, nec de meo sermone tam horribili et mediocri loquor, sed de eo sublimi et Augusto poetarum  quos legere simulas.

   Etsi tibi nihil scribam ultro, tamen legam et inteligentia gaudebo quom eminebit et mediocritatem  mecum verberabo tuam et aliorum. Textus Vergilii quem legis et te leget et insipientiam  non fert. Non ferant in aeternum discipuli quoque.

    Nec credo tibi  cum de historia deque philologia loqueris et gloriaris. Fabellae tolkienianae istae cum Vergilio ridicule confusae te arguunt, et tecum certe totius americanae artis explanandi!

Nisi legisti, posito horribili Tolkenio, lege Petrarcam, ab "De sui ipsius et multorum ignorantia" incipiens!  



>From: Larry Swain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
>Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:14:56 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>--- vincenzo crupi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
>
>Larry Swain scripsit:
>
>AMen.  One of the reasons I use Tolkien in a course
>
>that deals in European epic literature is because he
>
>drew so much from Vergil and Homer.  If I recall
>
>correctly, Classical Language and Literature was his
>
>first "major" before!  he switched to philology under
>
>Sisam.
>
>
>
>    Et, mehercules, categoriae historiae aliquantum hic
>strident:
>
>horresco referens monstrum istud quod �European epic
>literature� appellas!
>
>Europaeae litterae nec revera sunt nec, si vestro
>iudicio sint, tamen eundem vultum exhibent et
>temporibus et locis. Tolkien animum applicat
>philologiae impulsore Sisam ! Sed id quod tu
>philologiam vocas rectius philologia Anglorum ad
>Medium Aevum pertinens appell!
>
>
>I'll only make a few brief comments to this diatribe.
>First, I used philology in the sense that it was used
>in British universities before World War I.
>"Philology" at that period was used to describe the
>nascent field undertaken in English departments by and
>large of Indo-European linguistics.  This of course
>has changed drastically over the century, but in 1912,
>that's the way it was.  I also didn't say "impulsore
>Sisam", I said under Sisam.  Kenneth Sisam was
>Tolkien's tutor in 1912 and it was during this time
>that he migrated from the Classical faculty to the
>English faculty.
>
>Most of the rest of the message is beside the point.
>Tolkien et al came from a period in which all of
>European literature was seen as a continuum, two of
>the great works that this generation produced was
>Auerbach's Mimesis covering material from the ancient
>to the modern world, and Curtius' magnum opus,
>European Literature in the Latin Middle Ages which
>assumed a continuity between the Classical past and
>Medieval literature.  That Tolkien also participated
>in this view is apparent to anyone who has read any of
>his scholarly  pieces.  That his fiction is influenced
>by his scholarly life is also quite well known.  That
>he was embued with the Latin and Greek classics is
>plain as day.  That the classics, as well as other
>sources, influenced his work is easily demonstrated.
>
>
>
>
>
>    Si ergo tam multiplex implicatumque est quod
>Vergilius Graecis debet, ut qui duas tantum litteras
>(latinas et Graecas) docent persaepe Vergilium ab
>Homero disiunctum teneant, quo se res habet cum ad
>Tolkenium fuga temporum locorumque ducit?
>
>So the epic hero died with Vergil eh?  And epic themes
>were never dealt with in any subsequent literature?
>And our great epics didn't influence later writers to
>mimetic works and scenes?  Please, spare us.
>
>An impassioned plea to not do comparative literature
>or to engage in studies that cross our dearly held
>boundaries.  I'm afraid I'm not going to try and
>defend interdisciplinary studies, or interperiod
>studies and comparative literature against the fear
>that by doing so we have somehow devalued the context
>of Vergil or of the study of that context.  The best I
>can do at the moment is to invite you to come and sit
>in on my class,  perhaps you'll learn something.
>
>ljs
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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