Adrian, You seem to specialize in difficult questions! I know nothing about this stuff, but here goes.
Cameron, it seems to me, succeeds quite brilliantly in proving that the many long historical epics we (or at least I, � la Ziegler) thought were being churned out in the 4th and 3rd centuries BC never actually existed. So the background to the Aetia prologue must be radically reassessed. Cameron goes on from this to argue that the Aetia prologue has absolutely nothing to do with epic; its about different kinds of elegy, he says. Here, in my opinion, he's (probably) wrong; the Aetia prologue is (among other things) dealing with the problem of narrative (how do you do it?) and so it must relate to both epic and elegy (and historiography?). And here I think Parthenius' Erotika Pathemata is important, esp. when he says that the stories he has collected can be used either in elegies or in "epos" - which can only refer to the genre we call epyllion; on which there are very sensible remarks in the introductions to the Hecale of A. Hollis. Yes, it did exist!! But the rpoblems start when you fix a definition and then go looking for something that fits the definition. Cameron of course argues that the epyllion has nothing to do with Callimachus, and that it is a later invention. Here too he hits on something important. Callimachus' Hecale, Moschus' Europa and Catullus 64 (and here our/my ignorance is great; waht about titles such as Hermes/have some things in common, but also important differences, not least in length. Catullus 64 with its bizarre juxtapositions and uses of narrative techniques owe much to the elegiac Aetia - and that's not an epyllion. And here I start to go in circles. And another point: if Cameron is right (and he is) that that when we are told that some fourth-third century writer is an 'epopoios' we must think not of multi-book epics but of hexameter panegyrics of a few hundred lines � la Claudian, how do these relatively short hexameter narratives relate to the things we usually describe as epyllia? You will appreciate that I am quite incapable of answering you question satisfactorily. Did you say you were discussing this in Warwick? Andrew Laird will have the truth at his fingertips. Damien ---------- >From: Adrian Pay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: RE: VIRGIL: epic and epyllion >Date: Wed, Dec 9, 1998, 20:25 > >Damien, > >Thanks. I remember skim reading Cameron very shortly before finals but not >taking much of it in. I'd be very grateful if you could summarize his >standpoint for me, as I don't have access to a library at the moment. > >Also I think the question should be analysed in distinct parts. Whatever >the Callimachean aesthetic actually was (if there is such a well-defined >thing), is that the same thing that the Romans thought (or stated) >Callimachus stood for. There's something to be said for the inference that >some of the Roman poets did not actually know their Callimachus et al. all >that well, only certain favorite passages (e.g. Aetia Fr 1 and Frrs 67-75); >Parthenius' Erotica Pathemata is, perhaps, some evidence of how some Roman >poets approached the Hellenistic poets. It's only really Vergil who does >serious "number-crunching" on the Hellenistic poets (and subsequently >Ovid?). > >Interesting example... at the beginning of Georgics IV, in amongst several >examples of what we can assume are fairly hackneyed Hellenistic themes, >Vergil asks "quis... inlaudati nescit Busiridis aras?" referring to a bit >at the end of Aetia 2. I'd be willing to bet that the answer among most >Romans would be "I don't" (there's nothing that sugggests that this theme >had ever been treated in Latin). Then when Ovid refers to Busiris in AA 1, >he's answering Vergil "I do" (I think Ovid does this quite alot - >particularly Metamorphoses I in relation to Eclogue VI and Fasti V (Anna >Perenna episode) in relation to Aen. IV). > >What are your own views on epic and epyllion? > >Adrian > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dr D P Nelis [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 12:52 PM >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: VIRGIL: epic and epyllion > >Dear Adrian (if I may) >You will find criticisms of almost evry aspect of the picture you draw in >Cameron's book. He is very severe! Not that I agree with all he says, but >future discussions of the epic tradition will have to tackle his work; all >Vergilians will have to read Callimachus and his Critics. Bon courage! >Damien >---------- >>From: Adrian Pay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>Subject: RE: VIRGIL: epic and epyllion >>Date: Mon, Dec 7, 1998, 21:17 >> > >>I think one of the most important factors in the development of the >>epyllion is the number of extremely _bad_ epics that get produced both in >>the Hellenistic era and the Augustan and (pre-Augustan era); this is what >>Callimachus (+others) are concerned to distance themselves from passim. >> >>However, what Callimachus etc. are distancing themselves from is not >Homer. >>Homer and Hesiod retain sublime status. The Hellenistic epyllions >>(Callimachus' Hecale; Moschus' Europa; Theocritus) are stuffed full of >>recondite Homeric / Hesiodic scholarship. The Callimachean hymn to Apollo >>is a good statement of the Callimachean aesthetic - I think you can read >it >>as laying down the propositions I've just outlined. Aetia 1 has been >>supposed to refer to an aethetic dispute between Apollonius of Rhodes and >>Callimachus; I find that surprising - I think the Argonautica is a lot >>closer to the Callimachean aesthetic than it is to the tired panegyrics >>that I think Callimachus is distancing himself from. >> >>The same thing happens in Rome, broadly speaking. Ennius acquires >something >>of the sublime status of Homer, but the trendy poets (i.e. Catullus; and >>probably Calvus and Cinna) disparage the big book and are at pains to >>identify themselves with the Callimachean aesthetic. >> >>The antithesis becomes more acute among the Augustans. I think >considerable >>pressure can be detected on the Augustan poets to write an epic for >>Augustus. The Augustan poets take a hint from Aetia 1 and adapt this into >a >>form of wittily saying no, I don't want to write this poem - the statement >>becomes not just aesthetic but anti-propagandist. >> >>It is in this context that the decision to write the Aeneid must be vie >wed. >>Vergil, where other artists refused to "compromise their artistic >>integrity", decided to take up the challenge - this was a big risk in >>poetic terms. Interesting to note that Augustus is at pains to get one of >>the best poets to write this poem (see Horace Epistles 2); in Page's >>Fragmenta Poetarum Graecorum there's a dozen-odd hexameters of the sort of >>empty panegyric Augustus could have been content with. >> >>Augustus is v. happy with what he gets. Whether he is right to so be is >>another question altogether. >> >>That's all fairly general:- there are interesting specific points of >>discussion: the structure of the epyllion (in particular the "ekphrasis" >>device); where does the epyllion start? Callimachus? Philetas? (related >>question - is there a tradition of narrative elegy?); what's the >>relationship to, say, Stesichorus? The focus on "human" aspects? Humour? >>Imitation of Homeric devices. >> >>Adrian Pay >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Dr D P Nelis [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>Sent: Saturday, December 05, 1998 12:14 PM >>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>Subject: Re: VIRGIL: epic and epyllion >> >>Alan Cameron has a chapter on the epyllion in his 1995 Callimachus and his >>Critics, and one on Vergil and the recusatio. >>D. Nelis >>---------- >>>From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>Subject: VIRGIL: epic and epyllion >>>Date: Sat, Dec 5, 1998, 0:51 >>> >> >>>Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 16:27:57 -0800 >>>From: MISS C L DAVIES <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> >>>Hi there, I'm new to this but am currently participating in an >>>interesting discussion with my colleague about the difference between >>>epic and epyllion. What are your thoughts? >>> >>> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >>>Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >>>"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >>>can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub >>> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >>Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >>"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >>can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >>Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >>"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >>can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub >> >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
