<x-html>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I did get your message, thanks. I was hoping you might have found more by now. No one else has had anything to say about "pauit qui genuit." Can you tell me which concordances would be useful to me and are free on the Internet, and which ones I should try to have my university library obtain?</font> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Thanks,</font> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Randi Eldevik</font> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Associate Professor of English</font> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Oklahoma State University</font> <br> <br> <br> <table width=100%> <tr valign=top> <td> <td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]></b></font> <br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]</font> <p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">03/13/00 07:00 PM</font> <br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to mantovano</font> <br> <td><font size=1 face="Arial"> </font> <br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]</font> <br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> cc: (bcc: Randi C Eldevik/engl/cas/Okstate)</font> <br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Picture of Vergilius: Mosaik in Bardo-Museum, Tunis</font></table> <br> <br><font size=2 face="Courier New">In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,<br> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes<br> >This is a test to see if I am able to post to Mantovano free of gibberish. <br> <br> Yes you are. I take it you got your separate personal copy of my<br> posting; did anyone find pauit qui genuit for you?<br> <br> I'm off between 15 and 29 March, by the way?<br> <br> Leofranc<br> *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*<br> <br> Leofranc Holford-Strevens<br> 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone<br> Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter?<br> OX2 6EJ<br> <br> tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237<br> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work)<br> <br> *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*<br> -----------------------------------------------------------------------<br> To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply.<br> Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message<br> "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You<br> can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub<br> </font> <br> <br></x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Jun 14 14:42:43 2000 X-Persona: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >From mantovano-returns Tue Mar 14 08:25:52 2000 Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA26354; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:25:52 -0800 (PST) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Picture of Vergilius: Mosaik in Bardo-Museum, Tunis X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.1a August 17, 1999 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:25:06 -0600 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on osu-ns01/Okstate(Release 5.0.2c |February 2, 2000) at 03/14/2000 10:25:52 AM, Serialize complete at 03/14/2000 10:25:52 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 005A2FEF862568A2_=" Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-UIDL: f657da47d3ea99dc64211ec8a52a17bb <x-html> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Dear Hans,</font> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"> There is nothing wrong with your message. I have just been having computer problems. Your message happened to be the first from Mantovano that I could use for purposes of this test. I do appreciate the picture of Virgil.</font> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Thanks,</font> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Randi Eldevik</font> <br> <br> <br> <table width=100%> <tr valign=top> <td> <td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Zimmermann)</b></font> <br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]</font> <p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">03/14/00 04:13 AM</font> <br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to mantovano</font> <br> <td><font size=1 face="Arial"> </font> <br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]</font> <br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> cc: (bcc: Randi C Eldevik/engl/cas/Okstate)</font> <br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Picture of Vergilius: Mosaik in Bardo-Museum, Tunis</font></table> <br> <br><font size=2 face="Courier New">hello Randi - shall that be an answer? something wrong in my letter?<br> grusz, hansz<br> <br> [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:<br> > This is a test to see if I am able to post to Mantovano free of gibberish. <br> > (Thanks, David, for your help so far.)<br> > Randi Eldevik<br> > Oklahoma State University<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> ><br> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Zimmermann)<br> > Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<br> > 03/12/00 01:09 PM<br> > Please respond to mantovano<br> ><br> > <br> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<br> > cc: (bcc: Randi C Eldevik/engl/cas/Okstate)<br> > Subject: VIRGIL: Picture of Vergilius: Mosaik in Bardo-Museum,<br> > Tunis<br> ><br> > the famous portrait of Vergilius sitting between the two muses of <br> > historiography <br> > and tragedy is to be seen in the galery: <br> ><br> > http://www.sn.schule.de/~latein/mosaiken.html<br> ><br> > for some time (not forever). <br> ><br> > viel Spa� beim Anschauen (die Bilder leuchten auf dem Bildschirm, sie sind <br> > fast <br> > sch�ner als die Originale...)<br> > grusz, hansz<br> ><br> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------<br> > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply.<br> > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message<br> > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You<br> > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub<br> ><br> ><br> ><br> <br> -----------------------------------------------------------------------<br> To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply.<br> Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message<br> "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You<br> can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub<br> </font> <br> <br></x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Mar 14 17:28:13 2000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:39:59 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:39:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id KAA19250; Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:16:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 18:00:41 +0000 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Picture of Vergilius: Mosaik in Bardo-Museum, Tunis In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes >I did get your message, thanks. I was hoping you might have found more by >now. Sorry, I have been rushing to finish various bits of business before going on holiday tomorrow. > No one else has had anything to say about "pauit qui genuit." Can >you tell me which concordances would be useful to me and are free on the >Internet, and which ones I should try to have my university library >obtain? The databases I used are all CD-Roms available in the Bodleian Library; when I get back at the end of the month I can try to find out more. Best wishes Leofranc *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Mar 15 13:10:29 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 15 Mar 2000 11:06:27 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 15 Mar 2000 11:06:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id HAA00215; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 07:31:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:34:24 -0600 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aetna In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 05:11 AM 3/13/00 -0800, you wrote: >I am student of classic letter University of Messina >(Sicily - Italy), it is possible for me information >on book "Aetna of Appendix Virgiliane" for master >in classic letter, in internet o for e-mail? I don't know much about the "Aetna," beyond the fact that the poem is mentioned in the Life by Suetonius/Donatus, and that there is a text associated with the poem. Whether the text we have is the poem Virgil wrote is another question altogether. One place to start looking for more information (and this applies to most questions about Virgil) is the _Enciclopedia virgiliana_, 5 vols. in 6 (1984-1991). I know it has an article on the _Appendix vergiliana_; I don't recall if it has a separate article on the "Aetna." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://geoffreychaucer.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Chaucer: An Annotated Guide to Online Resources ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Mar 16 09:57:30 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 15 Mar 2000 22:50:06 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 15 Mar 2000 22:50:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id TAA17696; Wed, 15 Mar 2000 19:36:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 09:34:24 -0600 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aetna In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host lobosuelto.arnet.com.ar [200.45.0.2] claimed to be mx1.arnet.com.ar Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 05:11 AM 3/13/00 -0800, you wrote: >I am student of classic letter University of Messina >(Sicily - Italy), it is possible for me information >on book "Aetna of Appendix Virgiliane" for master >in classic letter, in internet o for e-mail? I don't know much about the "Aetna," beyond the fact that the poem is mentioned in the Life by Suetonius/Donatus, and that there is a text associated with the poem. Whether the text we have is the poem Virgil wrote is another question altogether. One place to start looking for more information (and this applies to most questions about Virgil) is the _Enciclopedia virgiliana_, 5 vols. in 6 (1984-1991). I know it has an article on the _Appendix vergiliana_; I don't recall if it has a separate article on the "Aetna." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://geoffreychaucer.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Chaucer: An Annotated Guide to Online Resources ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Mar 18 17:01:47 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 18 Mar 2000 14:39:44 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 18 Mar 2000 14:39:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id LAA11031; Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:39:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:41:37 -0800 From: Neven Jovanovic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Vergil's Joint (A. 6,13-19) Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear all, while reading the beginning of Aen. 6, our class encountered a problem regarding mythological education of Vergil's Roman public, and Vergil's _cut up_ technique. The problem lies in the _joint_ at A. 6,13-14: iam subeunt Triuiae lucos atque aurea tecta. Daedalus, ut fama est, fugiens Minoia regna, etc. Now, the sketch of Daedalus' travels goes on for four verses before the reader can get some clue on why is Vergil telling this story at this moment. The explanation comes first at A.6,18-19: Redditus his primum terris tibi, Phoebe, sacrauit remigium alarum posuitque immania templa. Now, the change of subject at A. 6,13-14 comes to _this_ reader as a surprise. But the class does not think so. They feel that Vergil's public would naturally (because of their common educational background) connect the talk about Daedalus with the _aurea tecta_ of A. 6,13. How do the listmembers feel reading A. 6,13-19? Neven ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Mar 21 11:03:09 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 20 Mar 2000 16:48:06 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 20 Mar 2000 16:48:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id NAA07843; Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:40:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 21:40:31 +0000 From: "Dr. Helen Conrad-O'Briain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Re: VIRGIL's Tomb In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.0 (1513) Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear List, To return to an earlier query on Vergil's tomb. I happened to pick up today a copy of Amedeo Maiuri, the Plegraean Fields from Virgil's Tomb to the Grotto of the Cumaean Sibyl, 4th ed., trans. V. Priestly published by the Ministero della Publica Istruzione Rome, 1959. I had never heard of the series published by the Italian government - and I have no idea if they still do publish them, but if they do not it is a pity. While there are only reproductions of two 18th century engravings of the putative tomb, the text gives a good introduction to the site and its history - the rest of the guidebook gives far more information than even the present Blue Guide type and would be useful to anyone who is not a specialist in either the archaeology of the area or in the question of Virgil's tomb and is nicely illustrated with black and white photos. Helen COB ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Mar 23 09:39:04 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:30:51 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:30:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id TAA23283; Wed, 22 Mar 2000 19:44:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 22:44:07 -0500 (EST) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Re: VIRGIL's Tomb Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 68 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 3/20/00 5:45:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << the rest of the guidebook gives far more information than even the present Blue Guide type and would be useful to anyone who is not a specialist in either the archaeology of the area or in the question of Virgil's tomb and is nicely illustrated with black and white photos. >> I am curious.....top what extent do you think that Virgil is still alive? Yes, it is a Moses like quest; it is about duty; about duty being more important hearth values- Dido that is; it is somewhat reminiscent of Kipling ......but Kipling is in his grave very much so. By the way what about the Eclogues do you think they say more more less ....in a meaningful way? Put differently, an interesting oddity much like the Triangle building in Manhattan? dick sincerely..... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Mar 24 17:22:22 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:29:10 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:29:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id NAA10248; Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:10:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 21:09:19 +0000 (GMT) From: M W Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Emotions In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Feeney (Gods, pp.168-71) does indeed provide an excellent analysis (I'm a cat looking at a king here), particularly of the Allecto/Amata/Turnus scenes in Book VII. Jenkyns (Virgil's Experience, p.510) comments that Feeney pays a price by regarding Turnus as a character not really characterised (not J's words) - F makes him simply the victim of supernatural force. I would approach this question by referring to M.R. James' remark, in the Intro. to his Collected Ghost Stories, that the tension of a supernatural narrative is maintained by holding the door open, not very wide, to a natural explanation - also to Henry James' description of his famous ghost story 'Turn of the Screw' as an 'amusette to catch those not easily caught'. V too wants to sustain the tension of his narrative and to construct an amusette to catch his readers. I'd suggest that the clue lies in the minor stroke of genius, whereby V plausibly puts the idea that 'our gods may be our overpowering emotions' into the mouth of the militaristic Nisus, who can have little time for philosophy or poetry. This philosophical idea must, if he is the spokesman for it, it must have some foundation in common sense. Conversely, Nisus is not a successful problem-solver. His methods work at first and then fail, which is the natural way with simple methods used on a well-made amusette. So we should expect there to be a plausible - at least approximately plausible - 'natural' explanation for each divine intervention considered by itself. This is dramatically important, especially for fitting the actions of individuals into the political context where they operate. (I suggested that Mercury at Carthage is in a way making Aeneas appreciate the sheer extent of racial tension between Tyrian and Trojan. I'll risk suggesting that Allecto's choice to look like Calybe presumably reflects the fact that the real Calybe has a lot more influence over Turnus than he likes to admit and that she is an old lady of very strong will, who has already begun (as Turnus really knows) to speak vigorously for an important nationalist faction.) On the other hand, relentless demand for natural explanations at every point becomes implausible and exhausting, substituting mere intellectual ingenuity for the proper response to poetry. V uses Epicureanism constantly, but in order to subvert it. He gives it rope to hang itself. - Martin Hughes On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Jim O'Hara wrote: > >M W Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >>... Aeneas' experience is presented in > >>terms of divine intervention, but in V divine intervention can always be > >>explained - at least approximately! - in naturalistic terms. (V all but > >>comments on this feature of his narrative at IX, 185. > > > >Very strong arguments against this claim in Denis Feeney, Gods in Epic, V. > >chapter and elsewhere. V. plays with the idea in Nisus' words at 9.185. > >but does hand us the answer. > > > oops, for "does hand us the answer" read "does not hand us the answer" > > > > James J. O'Hara Jim O'Hara > Professor of Classical Studies and Chair Classical Studies > Dept. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University > 860/685-2066 Middletown CT 06459-0146 > fax: 860/685-2089 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Mar 28 11:22:45 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:17:29 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:17:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA04649; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:06:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:47:29 -0600 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Roman achievement vs. victims of it Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] << message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >> From: "Emikomary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Organization: University of Leeds Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:19:38 GMT At the moment I am studying whether or not Virgil gives equal sympathy to the victims of the Roman Achievement (Dido, Turnus...) as he does to praise of the whole Roman Achievement. The thing that is bothering me is that surely the Roman Achievement equates to Fate, because in the Aeneid, the foundation of Rome is fated to happen. THerefore, Dido and Turnus are ultimately victims of fate rather that the roman achievement. But then this does not take into account the ending of the epic, which is surely not praising Aeneas' behaviour but showing that there is as dark side to every victory. I have read various articles which suggest that Virgil was not totally gung-ho about Augustus' regime, although he did genuinely admire him, but then Book 6 and Book 8 are so 'Roman' that it is hard to reconcile them to the ending of the epic. I would be interested to hear whether other people think that I am totally oversimplifying, or if Fate=roman achievement? Thanks, Emiko Priest ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Mar 31 17:46:35 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:22:53 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:22:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id OAA27762; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:04:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:03:15 -0600 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Reception of Texts Database Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] This item from today's Scout Report is not, strictly speaking, a Virgil item, but since many and perhaps most of us are interested in reception, I pass it on. - dswo ======== The Scout Report == ======== March 31, 2000 ==== ======== Volume 6, Number 45 ====== ====== Internet Scout Project ======== ==== University of Wisconsin ======== == Department of Computer Sciences ======== == I N T H E S C O U T R E P O R T T H I S W E E K ======== 6. Reception of Texts Database http://www2.open.ac.uk/ClassicalStudies/GreekPlays/welcom.html Reception of Texts Project, Department of Classical Studies The Open University http://www2.open.ac.uk/ClassicalStudies/GreekPlays/ Created by the Reception of Texts Project at the Open University, this pilot database is designed to help practitioners of reception studies "address issues of performance with the same degree of rigour and attention to evidence which is expected in textual studies and to develop ways of documenting performance which recognise its cross disciplinary and creative dimensions." To that end, academics and students in classical studies, literature, theater studies, and related fields can use this database to search for information on the performances of Greek plays in the original and in adaptations, versions and translations in English from c.1970 to the present, and in the future, poetry in English which draws on Greek texts, myths, and images. The database offers nine search categories, each with a slightly different search format, some offering only a simple keyword search, others with multiple modifiers, and others with pull-down menus for browsing. With the exception of the Critical Works category, searches ultimately return a Production Details page which generally includes modern and original title, year, theater, dates of performance, company, and music, design, and general notes. A useful feature throughout the database is a Missing Information form, which allows users to submit additional or missing information about specific entries. [MD] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://geoffreychaucer.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Chaucer: An Annotated Guide to Online Resources ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Apr 01 09:15:25 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 1 Apr 2000 09:11:48 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 01 Apr 2000 09:11:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id GAA12619; Sat, 01 Apr 2000 06:30:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 08:28:24 -0600 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: status of servants Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] << message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >> From: "ddavis-henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 21:21:10 -0500 Dear Mantovanians: In Aeneid IV, 664 + 665, Dido's "comites " watch her fall upon her sword, see her weapon frothing with blood and her spattered hands. It seems odd that, after Dido goes to the trouble of sending Barce from the room for Anna and thereby arranging to be alone to take her life, she does do this with witnesses. Is this an instance of servants as nothing more than bits of furniture in a royal residence? Please comment. Thanks, Denise D-Henry, Columbus, Ohio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Apr 04 15:13:07 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 4 Apr 2000 14:05:26 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 04 Apr 2000 14:04:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id LAA28294; Tue, 04 Apr 2000 11:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 12:21:22 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] This morning I have been trying (with some success) to study myself into an appreciation of Ben Jonson's poetry, which I can then confer upon some of my students tomorrow. In doing so, I have been reading an old piece (1955) by Patrick Cruttwell on the classical line in 17C poetry, in which he comments that the canon of Augustan poetry on which the English Augustans actually drew was itself somewhat circumscribed: "certain adjustments, no doubt unconscious, had to be made: the 'rebels' and individualists of Roman poetry, such as Catullus and Lucretius, were comparatively depreciated; the equivocal aspects of Horace--his irony and cynicism--and of Virgil--his deep melancholy--were little dwelt on, if indeed they were felt at all." The nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, by contrast, loved to talk about Virgil's melancholy. We don't, for some reason, perhaps because we now talk about Virgil's "pessimism" instead. I am wondering, though, how much difference there really is. Adam Perry's famous essay "The Two Voices" did, after all, take its title from a poem of the same name by...Tennyson. Is it merely that Virgil's Victorian melancholy now carries a political inflection, or does the difference run deeper? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://geoffreychaucer.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Chaucer: An Annotated Guide to Online Resources ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Apr 04 16:02:33 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:47:06 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 04 Apr 2000 15:47:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id NAA19372; Tue, 04 Apr 2000 13:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 21:15:54 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >Is it merely that Virgil's Victorian melancholy now carries a political >inflection, or does the difference run deeper? > The Victorians, by quoting 'sunt lacrimae rerum' out of context--always without the preceding and often without the following words--made it mean 'there are tears at the heart of the universe'; this is hardly susceptible of a scientific or prosaic explication, but seems to reflect the anguish of those who could no longer believe in their inherited religion at a time when the world it might once have explained was being changed, not by themselves, in ways that were bringing great benefit to great numbers of people but not principally to themselves. The anguished agnostic/atheist isn't so prominent in our society: those who don't believe simply don't believe, and concentrate on the good or evil of this world. The anguished intellectual is rather the political dissident who has found that the majority simply won't buy his dissent. Vergil is thus made into a political dissident because political dissent is the only form of discontent, beyond the purely personal, that the modern mind can understand; we reject the tears at the heart of the universe, not only because the grammarians have taught us to relate the verse to 'sunt hic etiam' as a statement about Carthage, but because we don't understand what such tears might be. More seriously (this is also said in answer to Emiko Priest), our party-political approach, in which truth is a zero-sum game, makes it hard for us both to cheer the victor and to recognize that 'there is a dark side to every victory'; to admire the Roman Achievement and at the same time to have sympathy for the victims. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Apr 04 22:35:09 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:08:13 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 04 Apr 2000 19:08:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id QAA23598; Tue, 04 Apr 2000 16:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 00:46:18 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Emotions In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <Pine.GSO.3.95-960729.1000322205017.13531D- [EMAIL PROTECTED]>, M W Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >Feeney (Gods, pp.168-71) does indeed provide an excellent analysis (I'm a >cat looking at a king here), particularly of the Allecto/Amata/Turnus >scenes in Book VII. Jenkyns (Virgil's Experience, p.510) comments that >Feeney pays a price by regarding Turnus as a character not really >characterised (not J's words) - F makes him simply the victim of >supernatural force. Think of the Homeric gods, who are undoubtedly real, yet who put into heroes' minds the (not always wise) thoughts or second thoughts that one might expect them to have. It is a problem in our mind-set, going back to the Sophistic period, that, if the gods or fate ordain, then it is not the human agent's fault (or merit). This was always a useful exculpation, but in the archaic world it is not true: when Agamemnon tells Achilles, on the latter's relenting from his wrath, that it was not he who had been to blame, but Zeus and Fate and the Erinys that wanders unseen, this is no more than a diplomatic way for both men to clear the topic out of the way. Vergil was always free to adopt the Homeric standpoint when he wished, without excluding others; but he is no more writing a tractate on freewill, determinism, and moral responsibility than a philosophical exposition of the afterlife or (pace Macrobii) a Neoplatonic demonstration that all gods are one. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Apr 05 08:28:00 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 4 Apr 2000 21:56:41 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 04 Apr 2000 21:56:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id TAA22248; Tue, 04 Apr 2000 19:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 21:30:13 -0700 From: michael feagler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Cfckf9q9t6hV8lpHJHivRA)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type> <META content="MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=2>That's a very curious comment, and, by coincidence, I've been wondering much the same, not concerning Virgil's melancholy, which has at least been acknowledge by previous generations, as you mention, but concerning Cicero, in whose philosophical dialogues, namely de Senectute, there runs a deep current of melancholia from beginning to end, which surfaces periodically in his letters of that time, too. It's another aspect of Cicero that tends to be downplayed, at least to my knowledge--but I'm no longer in the thick of things Roman--and offset by commentators' focus on Cicero pater patriae et al. Cicero's concerns in de Senectute cannot so easily be sublimated or substituted for those of the state. They run deep in pectore, as he says, and lend a greater depth, in my opinion, to the philosophical dialogues, de Senectute in particular. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>I'll have to read Perry's "Two Voices," and thanks for pointing it out.</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED]>David Wilson-Okamura</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]"; [EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 04, 2000 10:21 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>This morning I have been trying (with some success) to study myself into an<BR>appreciation of Ben Jonson's poetry, which I can then confer upon some of<BR>my students tomorrow. In doing so, I have been reading an old piece (1955)<BR>by Patrick Cruttwell on the classical line in 17C poetry, in which he<BR>comments that the canon of Augustan poetry on which the English Augustans<BR>actually drew was itself somewhat circumscribed: "certain adjustments, no<BR>doubt unconscious, had to be made: the 'rebels' and individualists of Roman<BR>poetry, such as Catullus and Lucretius, were comparatively depreciated; the<BR>equivocal aspects of Horace--his irony and cynicism--and of Virgil--his<BR>deep melancholy--were little dwelt on, if indeed they were felt at all."<BR><BR>The nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, by contrast, loved to talk<BR>about Virgil's melancholy. We don't, for some reason, perhaps because we<BR>now talk about Virgil's "pessimism" instead. I am wondering, though, how<BR>much difference there really is. Adam Perry's famous essay "The Two Voices"<BR>did, after all, take its title from a poem of the same name by...Tennyson. <BR><BR>Is it merely that Virgil's Victorian melancholy now carries a political<BR>inflection, or does the difference run deeper?<BR><BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>David Wilson-Okamura <A href="http://geoffreychaucer.org";>http://geoffreychaucer.org</A> <A href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A><BR>Macalester College Chaucer: An Annotated Guide to Online Resources<BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply.<BR>Instead, send email to <A href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A> with the message<BR>"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You<BR>can also unsubscribe at <A href="http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub";>http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Apr 05 11:58:45 2000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:03:52 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:03:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id HAA19027; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 07:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:39:58 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Precedence: bulk X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on WiseServer/Davidson(Release 5.0.1|July 16, 1999) at 04/05/2000 10:40:05 AM X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host [168.23.196.139] claimed to be www.davidsonfinearts.org Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><P>In response to melancholy and Cicero, he never really got over the loss of Tullia, his daughter. Could this have been a lingering memory which contributing to his lachrymose emotion in his mature years.?</P>----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Apr 05 13:17:09 2000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:15:55 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:15:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id JAA03197; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:08:12 -0500 From: Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host [129.133.1.61] claimed to be mail.wesleyan.edu Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Leofranc Holford-Strevens wrote: >... The anguished >agnostic/atheist isn't so prominent in our society: those who don't >believe simply don't believe, and concentrate on the good or evil of >this world. Hmmm, what would "our society" mean here? This would be a very inaccurate description of the world I live in, and the ease with which this claim is made explains a lot about the (similarly inaccurate) pigeon-holing of Vergilian critics that follows. >The anguished intellectual is rather the political dissident >who has found that the majority simply won't buy his dissent. Vergil is >thus made into a political dissident because political dissent is the >only form of discontent, beyond the purely personal, that the modern >mind can understand; we reject the tears at the heart of the universe, >not only because the grammarians have taught us to relate the verse to >'sunt hic etiam' as a statement about Carthage, but because we don't >understand what such tears might be. More seriously (this is also said >in answer to Emiko Priest), our party-political approach, in which truth >is a zero-sum game, makes it hard for us both to cheer the victor and to >recognize that 'there is a dark side to every victory'; to admire the >Roman Achievement and at the same time to have sympathy for the victims. > no party-political approach in antiquity? and again, who is the we in "our ... approach". the idea that V wants us to "to admire the Roman Achievement and at the same time to have sympathy for the victims" has its own history and politics, no? Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies & Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Apr 05 19:06:12 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:59:28 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 15:59:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id MAA09460; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:19:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 20:18:18 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >Leofranc Holford-Strevens wrote: >>... The anguished >>agnostic/atheist isn't so prominent in our society: those who don't >>believe simply don't believe, and concentrate on the good or evil of >>this world. > >Hmmm, what would "our society" mean here? This would be a very inaccurate >description of the world I live in, Interesting: I have never encountered anyone resembling the anguished Victorian agnostic. I was speaking about Britain rather than the US because the 'melancholy' being commented on seemed a Victorian concern, i.e. mid- to late-nineteenth-century British, and trying to account for a proposed contrast between a Victorian melancholy Vergil and a modern politically unhappy one. > >the idea that V wants us to "to admire the >Roman Achievement and at the same time to have sympathy for the victims" >has its own history and politics, no? History yes, in that other people have said it; but politics no. That is precisely my point, the modern notion that everything is political. Which will look pretty odd to the post-political generation we are told is on its way.) Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Apr 05 19:06:16 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:29:21 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:28:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id NAA26752; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 13:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:10:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Phillip Sidney Horky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: The Fields of the Dead Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear List, _Elysium_ is a journal of contemporary creative arts relating to the Western Classics published by Elysium, a student group at the University of Michigan. Our incipient edition is slated for publication in June 2000 and we are accepting pre-orders for this non-profit journal now. Included in Elysium this year are original prose, poetry, translations, and visual arts from Seamus Heaney, Peter Green, Mary Gray Hughes, Kevin McFadden, Katherine Williams, Benjamin Acosta-Hughes, Carter C. Revard, and many others. Cost is $5 for each journal. You cannot find a more interesting 64 pages anywhere! Feel free to mail either cash or a check (made out to Elysium) for $5 each copy of _Elysium_ to: Elysium c/o Phillip Horky 116 N. State Apt#2 Ann Arbor, MI 48104 Feel free to email [EMAIL PROTECTED] for questions. Please provide your return address and email (if possible) so that a receipt can be sent. Sincerely, Phillip S. Horky Editor-in-Chief, _Elysium_ _____________________________________________________________________ "The first and wisest of them all profess'd To know this only, that he nothing knew." -The Son, _Paradise Regain'd_ "For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another." _Galatians_5:13 "Dim as the borrowed beams of moon and stars To lonely, weary, wandering travellers, Is reason to the soul...." -John Dryden, _Religio Laici_ ____________________________________________________________________ Phillip Horky Student, LS&A Honors The University of Michigan Ann Arbor ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Apr 05 19:06:18 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:29:21 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:28:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id NAA00245; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 13:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:20:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Phillip Sidney Horky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Elysium errata Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sorry for this message. For those of you who would like to email Elysium for questions, please email my personal account [EMAIL PROTECTED] because our elysium account is not functioning properly. Kindly, Phillip S. Horky Editor-in Chief, _Elysium_ _____________________________________________________________________ "The first and wisest of them all profess'd To know this only, that he nothing knew." -The Son, _Paradise Regain'd_ "For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another." _Galatians_5:13 "Dim as the borrowed beams of moon and stars To lonely, weary, wandering travellers, Is reason to the soul...." -John Dryden, _Religio Laici_ ____________________________________________________________________ Phillip Horky Student, LS&A Honors The University of Michigan Ann Arbor ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Apr 05 19:06:26 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 5 Apr 2000 16:56:59 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:56:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id NAA07577; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 13:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:45:25 -0500 From: Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host [129.133.1.61] claimed to be mail.wesleyan.edu Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] >In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jim O'Hara ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >>Leofranc Holford-Strevens wrote: >>>... The anguished >>>agnostic/atheist isn't so prominent in our society: those who don't >>>believe simply don't believe, and concentrate on the good or evil of >>>this world. >> >>Hmmm, what would "our society" mean here? This would be a very inaccurate >>description of the world I live in, > >Interesting: I have never encountered anyone resembling the anguished >Victorian agnostic. OK. The word "Victorian" was perhaps implied by the ongoing discussion, but was absent from the sentence that leaped out at me. I've met quite a few anguished non-Victorian agnostics. >I was speaking about Britain rather than the US >because the 'melancholy' being commented on seemed a Victorian concern, >i.e. mid- to late-nineteenth-century British, and trying to account for >a proposed contrast between a Victorian melancholy Vergil and a modern >politically unhappy one. >> >>the idea that V wants us to "to admire the >>Roman Achievement and at the same time to have sympathy for the victims" >>has its own history and politics, no? > >History yes, in that other people have said it; but politics no. That is >precisely my point, the modern notion that everything is political. >Which will look pretty odd to the post-political generation we are told >is on its way.) > >Leofranc Holford-Strevens Excellent. How useful to meet someone whose views are not influenced in any way by his politics (if any). Suave mari magno.... Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies & Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Apr 05 22:00:26 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 5 Apr 2000 19:23:55 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 05 Apr 2000 19:23:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id QAA27130; Wed, 05 Apr 2000 16:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 00:08:14 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >Excellent. How useful to meet someone whose views are not influenced in >any way by his politics (if any). Suave mari magno.... > Would this comment have been thought as apt in 1900 as in 2000, and will it seem so apt in 2100? Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Apr 06 09:36:02 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 6 Apr 2000 06:42:24 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 06 Apr 2000 06:42:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id DAA25027; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 03:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 06:38:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host [129.133.1.61] claimed to be mail.wesleyan.edu Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Leofranc Holford-Strevens wrote: >In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jim O'Hara ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >> >>Excellent. How useful to meet someone whose views are not influenced in >>any way by his politics (if any). Suave mari magno.... >> >Would this comment have been thought as apt in 1900 as in 2000, and will >it seem so apt in 2100? > They key word in your question is "thought". I have no doubt that many Vergilians in 1900 thought their views were not influenced by any sort of politics. This was a complete delusion. I don't know about 2100; I myself didn't get a cc of the memo announcing that the near future will be "post-political" (I think this is a just a cute way of referring to the fact that many people will stay home and watch videos they've ordered online). Simply put: all views of Vergil are influenced by the reader's politics. Those who are aware of this are slightly better able to compensate for it than those who are not. This does not depend on believing that "everything is political." James J. O'Hara Jim O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies and Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 Middletown CT 06459-0146 fax: 860/685-2089 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Apr 06 11:39:45 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:22:12 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 06 Apr 2000 11:22:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA21922; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 08:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:09:00 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 06:38 AM 4/6/00 -0400, Jim O'Hara wrote: >Simply put: all views of Vergil are influenced by the reader's politics. >Those who are aware of this are slightly better able to compensate for it >than those who are not. > >This does not depend on believing that "everything is political." This seems fair, Jim. I suspect, however, that all views of Virgil are influenced by what the reader had for dinner this year. The real question, in both cases, is how much influence? Perhaps one way of measuring this--and of getting back to the original question--is to ask why the Victorians construed Virgil's glumness (?) as melancholy instead of pessimism? If, as you suggest, we are more self-conscious about the political dimension of what we say about literature (and I rather doubt that this is true, at least with regard to the Victorians), what are we less self-conscious about? Or to put it another way, in trading melancholy for pessimism, what did we lose in the bargain? I'm not suggesting that we go back to melancholy, by the way. I would, however, maintain that progress in knowledge depends on assimilating and building on what one has already gained; trading it in for "the next thing" is not progress. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Apr 06 16:28:51 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:00:56 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 06 Apr 2000 14:00:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id KAA20717; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 18:54:01 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Christine Perkell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >>Simply put: all views of Vergil are influenced by the reader's politics. >>Those who are aware of this are slightly better able to compensate for it >>than those who are not. > > >This is, of course, absolutely true. The fact that there still remains a >need to state it is not without significance. > I still do not believe it. Why shouldn't it be the other way round, not necessarily with regard to Vergil in particular, but in general that people form their political views in reaction to what they have read? How dare we assume that we are wiser than our ancestors or our successors in our understanding of these intellectual processes? If this is the _fable convenue_ of our age, then let it be tested to destruction with every competing ideology available. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Apr 06 16:28:50 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:38:34 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 06 Apr 2000 13:37:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id KAA10732; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 13:22:22 -0500 From: Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp.wesleyan.edu [129.133.1.61] claimed to be mail.wesleyan.edu Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] >At 06:38 AM 4/6/00 -0400, Jim O'Hara wrote: >>Simply put: all views of Vergil are influenced by the reader's politics. >>Those who are aware of this are slightly better able to compensate for it >>than those who are not. >> >>This does not depend on believing that "everything is political." > >This seems fair, Jim. I suspect, however, that all views of Virgil are >influenced by what the reader had for dinner this year. The real question, >in both cases, is how much influence? > >Perhaps one way of measuring this--and of getting back to the original >question--is to ask why the Victorians construed Virgil's glumness (?) as >melancholy instead of pessimism? If, as you suggest, we are more >self-conscious about the political dimension of what we say about >literature (and I rather doubt that this is true, at least with regard to >the Victorians), what are we less self-conscious about? Or to put it >another way, in trading melancholy for pessimism, what did we lose in the >bargain? > >I'm not suggesting that we go back to melancholy, by the way. I would, >however, maintain that progress in knowledge depends on assimilating and >building on what one has already gained; trading it in for "the next thing" >is not progress. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] David's attempt to bring the question back to the Victorians is valid, but you won't get much on that topic from me, at least not today. But I'll comment on your introductory suggestion, that "the real question" is how much influence various things have. A question I think equally "real", is whether in any of the debates about Vergil, it is possible to characterize one side's (correct) views as unaffected by politics, and the other side's (incorrect) views as simply the result of such-and-such political or intellectual development. That's what I object to in two of our most learned list-members recent formualtions, both the claim that "Vergil is thus made into a political dissident because political dissent is the only form of discontent, beyond the purely personal, that the modern mind can understand;" and the claim that "our party-political approach, in which truth is a zero-sum game, makes it hard for us both to cheer the victor and to recognize that 'there is a dark side to every victory'; to admire the Roman Achievement and at the same time to have sympathy for the victims." and then the subsequent claim that this second statement is not influenced by anyone's politics. That's all I can do today (or in the near future). Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies & Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Apr 06 16:28:54 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 10000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:14:01 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 06 Apr 2000 15:13:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id MAA17620; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 12:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 15:07:44 -0400 From: Joseph Farrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_+mWW6I2mCQrg6Gh36lQXIQ)" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] I've tried to keep my vow of abstaining from these lists, but this discussion is simply too interesting. Like Christine Perkell, I feel that Jim O'Hara is simply speaking common sense. I go back and forth as to *how much* better off you are if you know that you have prejudices, but I generally think that you are better off in the same way that Socrates was wiser than most of his critics. But you aren't necessarily in a position to make many more confident, declarative statements. L H-S, though, is certainly correct when he says that ancient texts form our opinions, as well as (I would say, not "rather than") serving as screens onto which we project our opinions, whether we do so knowingly or not. How can we view the situation as other than a hermeneutic circle, where any starting point you choose is arbitrary? As Don Fowler puts it, "Someone who says 'This is the way the world was' will always appear to have a better position than someone who says 'This is the way I construct the past', but argued back to our foundational beliefs we will ultimately always be in the same boat." Leofranc Holford-Strevens wrote: > In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Christine Perkell > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >>Simply put: all views of Vergil are influenced by the reader's politics. > >>Those who are aware of this are slightly better able to compensate for it > >>than those who are not. > > > > > >This is, of course, absolutely true. The fact that there still remains a > >need to state it is not without significance. > > > I still do not believe it. Why shouldn't it be the other way round, not > necessarily with regard to Vergil in particular, but in general that > people form their political views in reaction to what they have read? > How dare we assume that we are wiser than our ancestors or our > successors in our understanding of these intellectual processes? If this > is the _fable convenue_ of our age, then let it be tested to destruction > with every competing ideology available. > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens > 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone > Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? > OX2 6EJ > > tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) > > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub Attachment Converted: "C:\Email attachments\jfarrell.vcf" From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Apr 06 17:00:37 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:53:22 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:53:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id NAA26353; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 13:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 21:45:52 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >Leofranc Holford-Strevens wrote: >>In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Christine Perkell >><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >>>>Simply put: all views of Vergil are influenced by the reader's politics. >>>>Those who are aware of this are slightly better able to compensate for it >>>>than those who are not. >>> >>> >>>This is, of course, absolutely true. The fact that there still remains a >>>need to state it is not without significance. >>> >>I still do not believe it. Why shouldn't it be the other way round, not >>necessarily with regard to Vergil in particular, but in general that >>people form their political views in reaction to what they have read? > >Sure, I guess you could imagine a situation where children were raised by >well-programmed androids and never heard a word about anything vaguely >political until they had finished teaching them enough Latin, somehow also >without imparting anything political, for them to read Vergil and form >their political views from him. > >But in reality everyone in the last several hundred years who has read >Vergil has already read a lot of other things, As I said before, I was not concerned specifically with Vergil; one will or may have heard other things (religious, moral, and so forth) before the specifically political, unless one is to declare aprioristically that those are all manifestations of the political and not vice versa. > and been told things by >their parents and teachers, and neighbors and friends, and developed >political ideas based on what they have read and seen and been told, both >about Vergil and about other things. To hear something political is not necessarily to accept it; and if one rejects it, it will be on the basis of some other value/prejudice/idea that may as well have come from reading as from anything else. > >No babe comes naked to the text of Vergil Nor to politics. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Apr 06 16:28:56 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:06:23 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:06:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id MAA05369; Thu, 06 Apr 2000 12:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 15:58:45 -0500 From: Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp.wesleyan.edu [129.133.1.61] claimed to be mail.wesleyan.edu Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Leofranc Holford-Strevens wrote: >In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Christine Perkell ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >>>Simply put: all views of Vergil are influenced by the reader's politics. >>>Those who are aware of this are slightly better able to compensate for it >>>than those who are not. >> >> >>This is, of course, absolutely true. The fact that there still remains a >>need to state it is not without significance. >> >I still do not believe it. Why shouldn't it be the other way round, not >necessarily with regard to Vergil in particular, but in general that >people form their political views in reaction to what they have read? Sure, I guess you could imagine a situation where children were raised by well-programmed androids and never heard a word about anything vaguely political until they had finished teaching them enough Latin, somehow also without imparting anything political, for them to read Vergil and form their political views from him. But in reality everyone in the last several hundred years who has read Vergil has already read a lot of other things, and been told things by their parents and teachers, and neighbors and friends, and developed political ideas based on what they have read and seen and been told, both about Vergil and about other things. No babe comes naked to the text of Vergil; *that* is the _fable convenue_ that is in the process of being destroyed. Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies & Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Apr 07 16:42:49 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:13:00 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:12:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id JAA08129; Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:56:33 -0700 From: Louis Perraud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Ezra Pound story Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_aadBHzSVwSZiinw2PcpnhA)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type> <META content='"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=GENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>For a popular lecture on the Aeneid, I would like to find a version of the anecdote from W. B. Yeats via Ezra Pound, where an Irish [?sailor] says of Aeneas, `Begab, i thought he was a priest." I have seen this in more than one place, and am unable to put my hand on any of them. Can someone help?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Thanks, </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Louis Perraud</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>[EMAIL PROTECTED] net</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Apr 07 17:08:46 2000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:48:38 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 07 Apr 2000 16:48:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id NAA26347; Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 17:06:04 -0400 From: Christine Perkell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Ezra Pound story Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Absurdly vague suggestion, but I think that is quoted in one of the essays in Twentieth Century Views on Vergil, ed. S. Commager. I don't remember which one, though! CP >Subject: VIRGIL: Ezra Pound story >Sent: 4/1/20 8:53 PM >Received: 4/7/0 4:47 PM >From: Louis Perraud, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >For a popular lecture on the Aeneid, I would like to find a version of the >anecdote from W. B. Yeats via Ezra Pound, where an Irish [?sailor] says of >Aeneas, `Begab, i thought he was a priest." I have seen this in more than >one place, and am unable to put my hand on any of them. Can someone help? > >Thanks, >Louis Perraud >[EMAIL PROTECTED] net Christine Perkell/ Zarbin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Classics Department Emory University Atlanta, GA 30322 404 727 7592; fax 404 727 0223 In NJ: 973 635 6604 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Apr 07 18:32:41 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 7 Apr 2000 18:12:17 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 07 Apr 2000 18:12:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id PAA05414; Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 16:54:27 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Ezra Pound story Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 09:56 AM 4/7/00 -0700, you wrote: >For a popular lecture on the Aeneid, I would like to find a version of the >anecdote from W. B. Yeats via Ezra Pound, where an Irish [?sailor] says of >Aeneas, `Begab, i thought he was a priest." I have seen this in more than one >place, and am unable to put my hand on any of them. Can someone help? Ezra Pound relates this anecdote in _ABC of Reading_ (London: Routledge, 1934), 29: according to Pound, Yeats was fond of telling the story of a "plain sailor man" who "took a notion to study latin." Accordingly, "his teacher tried him with Virgil; after many lessons he asked him something about the hero. Said the sailor: 'What hero?' Said the teacher: 'What hero, why, Aeneas, the hero.' Said the sailor: 'Ach, a hero, him a hero? Bigob, I t'ought he waz a priest.'" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Apr 13 10:22:38 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:37:31 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:37:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id MAA04698; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:10:45 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: on-line index to Aufstieg und Niedergang d. r�m . Welt Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Something from the Medieval Texts list that will, I think, be of interest to many here, as well: Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:39:45 -0500 From: Charles Wright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: Medieval Texts - Philology Codicology and Technology <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Our classics librarian just discovered this, which I thought might be of interest to the list. http://www.uky.edu/ArtsSciences/Classics/biblio/anrw.html It's a searchable index to the contents (that is, the table of contents) of the series Aufstieg und Niedergang der r�mischen Welt. Charlie Wright ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Apr 13 10:22:39 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:42:14 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:42:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id NAA19389; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:29:11 -0500 From: Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: on-line index to Aufstieg und Niedergang d. r�m . Welt In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host [129.133.1.61] claimed to be mail.wesleyan.edu Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] A resource that includes the anrw index and several other useful things, is at http://www.uky.edu/ArtsSciences/Classics/lexindex.html where you can search anwr, bmcr, tocs, gnomon bibs., perseus, diotima, etc. it's one of my favorite things. if you lose thins e-mail I think I have a link to it at the bottom of my own home page >Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:39:45 -0500 >From: Charles Wright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sender: Medieval Texts - Philology Codicology and Technology > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Our classics librarian just discovered this, which I thought might be of >interest to the list. > >http://www.uky.edu/ArtsSciences/Classics/biblio/anrw.html > >It's a searchable index to the contents (that is, the table of contents) of >the series Aufstieg und Niedergang der r�mischen Welt. > >Charlie Wright > Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies & Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Apr 18 12:06:58 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:52:25 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:52:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id HAA25377; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 07:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:48:06 -0400 From: david connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Latin/English facing text of Virgil Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Organization: corn hill ww MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: mailhost.capecod.net: Host cbrg0339.capecod.net [63.211.185.85] claimed to be capecod.net Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Is there an on-line latin/english text available for study. I use the Loeb text now, but I would especially like to compare Dryden directly to the latin on-line. Is that possible? Thank you -- David ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Apr 19 12:02:16 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 18 Apr 2000 21:22:40 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 18 Apr 2000 21:22:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id SAA03665; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 17:35:51 -0800 From: Padraic Emparan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Latin/English facing text of Virgil Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] the university of penn has the vergil project which will allow you to work through the site word by word, with a number of aids. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Apr 20 09:29:50 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:59:56 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:59:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id NAA18765; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:46:07 -0400 (EDT) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Latin/English facing text of Virgil Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 104 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] i dont know man ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Apr 20 09:30:00 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:55:19 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 20 Apr 2000 01:55:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id XAA02838; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 23:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 08:01:10 +0200 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Zimmermann) Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Latin/English facing text of Virgil Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.3 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: > i dont know man pauper puer, et nunc totus mundus te cognovit, cum omnibus ea, quae scias, confessus sis. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Apr 20 16:09:41 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:21:29 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:21:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id KAA18732; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:16:37 -0400 From: Philip Thibodeau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] I hope this inquity is not too much off topic, but a student here claims to have heard that a new chunk of Tacitus' Annales, covering part of the reign of Gaius, was recently discovered in a Vatican Library ms. So far my efforts to trace this rumor have been unsuccessful. Does anyone know the truth or the source of it? Thanks, Philip Thibodeau The University of Georgia ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Apr 20 16:51:12 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 20 Apr 2000 16:47:59 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 20 Apr 2000 16:47:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id NAA21433; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:43:55 -0700 (PDT) From: James Stewart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed Precedence: bulk X-Originating-IP: [192.204.148.97] X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host law-f3.hotmail.com [209.185.131.66] claimed to be hotmail.com Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] I'll put the kibosh on this one immediately- it started three weeks ago this saturday, which was the 1st of April. It was a very clever e-mail by David Meadows to the Classics list, giving a Reuters "news story"- David very cleverly listed his e-mail as [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Think i've got the spelling right.... Sadly, the missing Annals have NOT turned up- sorry- a huge April Fools' joke... Jim >I hope this inquity is not too much off topic, but a student here claims to >have heard that a new chunk of Tacitus' Annales, covering part of the reign >of Gaius, was recently discovered in a Vatican Library ms. So far my >efforts to trace this rumor have been unsuccessful. Does anyone know the >truth or the source of it? > >Thanks, > >Philip Thibodeau >The University of Georgia > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Apr 20 17:45:26 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:36:57 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:36:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id OAA04819; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 14:29:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 22:27:42 +0100 From: "Dr. Helen Conrad-O'Briain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.0 (1513) Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Oh [EMAIL PROTECTED]&@* H. COB > From: "James Stewart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:43:55 PDT > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: > > I'll put the kibosh on this one immediately- it started three weeks ago this > saturday, which was the 1st of April. It was a very clever e-mail by David > Meadows to the Classics list, giving a Reuters "news story"- David very > cleverly listed his e-mail as > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Think i've got the spelling right.... > > Sadly, the missing Annals have NOT turned up- sorry- a huge April Fools' > joke... > > Jim > >> I hope this inquity is not too much off topic, but a student here claims to >> have heard that a new chunk of Tacitus' Annales, covering part of the reign >> of Gaius, was recently discovered in a Vatican Library ms. So far my >> efforts to trace this rumor have been unsuccessful. Does anyone know the >> truth or the source of it? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Philip Thibodeau >> The University of Georgia >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >> Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >> "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >> can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Apr 21 19:27:22 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 21 Apr 2000 19:13:11 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 21 Apr 2000 19:13:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id QAA26740; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 16:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 14:33:23 +0800 From: Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host [129.133.1.61] claimed to be mail.wesleyan.edu Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] >V is poet whose whole work is written against the background of one of >history's longest civil wars. Those wars, more than their counterparts in >England and America, had the nightmarish quality of seeming to be over on several occasions when they really had plenty of vicious life in them. >[much good stuff omitted] > The total effect, >I would say, is of a hint of optimism and reconciliation which is hard won >and precarious, not in the least facile. ... the outcome of the Civil Wars is >celebrated amid sympathy for the losers. Great post. But how do the two parts of it I've cited above go together? If Romans knew civil was had broken out again and again after apparent settlements, what reason was there for thinking that the future would be any different? What impact would the death of Marcellus, highlighted so movingly in Aeneid 6, have on thinking about the future? What hope for the future would there be after the (apparently--looks deceive) frail Augustus? Doesn't the hero of the Aeneid keep thinking his troubles are over, only to have Italy or peace then seem further away? What does it mean that the Fourth Eclogue was published either 2-3 or possibly even as much as 5-6 years after the Treaty of Brundisium? What really is the difference between precarious optimism and pessimism? Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies & Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Apr 21 10:48:23 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 21 Apr 2000 10:48:31 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 21 Apr 2000 10:48:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id HAA11379; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 07:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 15:50:52 +0100 (BST) From: M W Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host [129.234.4.9] claimed to be hermes.dur.ac.uk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] V is poet whose whole work is written against the background of one of history's longest civil wars. Those wars, more than their counterparts in England and America, had the nightmarish quality of seeming to be over on several occasions when they really had plenty of vicious life in them. Since V is certainly not escapist, the poems necessarily have a dark tone. They also deal often, as I think one would expect in the context, with the theme of hope betrayed or frustrated. So the first Bucolic introduces us to the relaxing shade and thoughts of love but the Bucolic series ends with the shade declared to be oppressive and love showing its distressing aspect. Dido and Aeneas offer the most famous example of hope shattered, but we can also think of th Trojans contemplating the Horse, of Palinurus and of Pallas. But dark tones are not really dark without lighter counterparts and the poems have a wide emotional register. This extends into religious modes of hope and consolation. These are never simply mocked, though I would think that after the 'Messianic Eclogue', there are always signs of reservation. These are matched by at least equal signs of reservation about Epicurean atheism. So it's surely wrong to read the sequence of poems as one long moan or see V as 'melancholic' in the sense of 'depressive' or as 'pessimistic' in the sense of 'being committed to denunciations of the universe in Epicurean style'. ('Curis acuens mortalia corda' strikes a different note from 'tanta stat praedita culpa'.) But the poems are ambivalent at almost every point, almost a long series of amusettes to catch and intrigue readers. The total effect, I would say, is of a hint of optimism and reconciliation which is hard won and precarious, not in the least facile. Which gets me round to saying that I agree basically with LHS: the outcome of the Civil Wars is celebrated amid sympathy for the losers. Augustus is the Promised Man, but there is still a kind of sanctity about Cato. But I would think that there are very important questions of nuance even after acceptance of this basic point. Dryden (I think, on the basis of one reading of his Introduction to the 'Aeneis') thinks V celebrates the Augustan peace only as a necessity and reminds us that it rests on deception - the Romans had been 'gulled', just as the British had in D's view been gulled into rejecting Catholicism and the Stuart monarchy. I was struck by D's politically charged reading and by his anticipation of Syme. I'm with JO'H in thinking that everyone reads ancient texts politically - and like him I have met agonised agnostics, perhaps because I live in Durham, where the Victorian age is not over. Why do I, for one, accept what I'm calling the 'basic point'? I can't speak for LHS, but he and I are British people with a similar educational background who lived through decades of the Cold War. It seems to me that the 'basic point' is a Cold War interpretation of V - i.e. results in part (only in part, because I have read the text as objectively as I can) from the way that the Cold War, with extraordinary paradox, called both for extreme antagonism and for a modus vivendi. At any rate, I think that there is much more to be said about V's melancholy, even if the 'basic point' is (for now?!) widely accepted. Sorry to go on so long. - Martin Hughes On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Leofranc Holford-Strevens wrote: > In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jim O'Hara > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >Leofranc Holford-Strevens wrote: > >>In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Christine Perkell > >><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >>>>Simply put: all views of Vergil are influenced by the reader's politics. > >>>>Those who are aware of this are slightly better able to compensate for it > >>>>than those who are not. > >>> > >>> > >>>This is, of course, absolutely true. The fact that there still remains a > >>>need to state it is not without significance. > >>> > >>I still do not believe it. Why shouldn't it be the other way round, not > >>necessarily with regard to Vergil in particular, but in general that > >>people form their political views in reaction to what they have read? > > > >Sure, I guess you could imagine a situation where children were raised by > >well-programmed androids and never heard a word about anything vaguely > >political until they had finished teaching them enough Latin, somehow also > >without imparting anything political, for them to read Vergil and form > >their political views from him. > > > > >But in reality everyone in the last several hundred years who has read > >Vergil has already read a lot of other things, > > As I said before, I was not concerned specifically with Vergil; one will > or may have heard other things (religious, moral, and so forth) before > the specifically political, unless one is to declare aprioristically > that those are all manifestations of the political and not vice versa. > > and been told things by > >their parents and teachers, and neighbors and friends, and developed > >political ideas based on what they have read and seen and been told, both > >about Vergil and about other things. > > To hear something political is not necessarily to accept it; and if one > rejects it, it will be on the basis of some other value/prejudice/idea > that may as well have come from reading as from anything else. > > > >No babe comes naked to the text of Vergil > > Nor to politics. > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens > 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone > Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? > OX2 6EJ > > tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) > > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Apr 21 19:26:20 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 21 Apr 2000 13:20:35 CDT Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 21 Apr 2000 13:20:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id JAA29427; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 09:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 17:45:17 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <Pine.GSO.3.95-960729.1000421144843.4641D- [EMAIL PROTECTED]>, M W Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >V is poet whose whole work is written against the background of one of >history's longest civil wars. Those wars, more than their counterparts in >England and America, had the nightmarish quality of seeming to be over on >several occasions when they really had plenty of vicious life in them. >Since V is certainly not escapist, the poems necessarily have a dark tone. >They also deal often, as I think one would expect in the context, with the >theme of hope betrayed or frustrated. So the first Bucolic introduces us >to the relaxing shade and thoughts of love but the Bucolic series ends >with the shade declared to be oppressive and love showing its distressing >aspect. Dido and Aeneas offer the most famous example of hope shattered, >but we can also think of th Trojans contemplating the Horse, of Palinurus >and of Pallas. But dark tones are not really dark without lighter >counterparts and the poems have a wide emotional register. This extends >into religious modes of hope and consolation. These are never simply >mocked, though I would think that after the 'Messianic Eclogue', there are >always signs of reservation. These are matched by at least equal signs of >reservation about Epicurean atheism. So it's surely wrong to read the >sequence of poems as one long moan or see V as 'melancholic' in the sense >of 'depressive' or as 'pessimistic' in the sense of 'being committed to >denunciations of the universe in Epicurean style'. ('Curis acuens >mortalia corda' strikes a different note from 'tanta stat praedita >culpa'.) But the poems are ambivalent at almost every point, almost a >long series of amusettes to catch and intrigue readers. The total effect, >I would say, is of a hint of optimism and reconciliation which is hard won >and precarious, not in the least facile. Which gets me round to saying >that I agree basically with LHS: the outcome of the Civil Wars is >celebrated amid sympathy for the losers. Augustus is the Promised Man, >but there is still a kind of sanctity about Cato. As Caesar had found when his invective against Cato's memory failed of its effect; cf. Horace's 'an Catonis nobile letum', which I am sure Syme was right against the hypercritics. > But I would think that >there are very important questions of nuance even after acceptance of this >basic point. Dryden (I think, on the basis of one reading of his >Introduction to the 'Aeneis') thinks V celebrates the Augustan peace only >as a necessity and reminds us that it rests on deception - the Romans had >been 'gulled', just as the British had in D's view been gulled into >rejecting Catholicism and the Stuart monarchy. I was struck by >D's politically charged reading and by his anticipation of Syme. I'm with >JO'H in thinking that everyone reads ancient texts politically - and like >him I have met agonised agnostics, perhaps because I live in Durham, where >the Victorian age is not over. Why do I, for one, accept what I'm >calling the 'basic point'? I can't speak for LHS, but he and I are British >people with a similar educational background who lived through decades of >the Cold War. It seems to me that the 'basic point' is a Cold War >interpretation of V - i.e. results in part (only in part, because I have >read the text as objectively as I can) from the way that the Cold War, >with extraordinary paradox, called both for extreme antagonism and for a >modus vivendi. For my part, I had come on the 'basic point' as an established critical opinion long antedating the Cold War or even the twentieth century; I was brought up on both the Cold War and still more the Second World War as straightforward conflicts of right versus wrong much closer in spirit to the Song of Roland ('Crestien ont dreit et pa�en ont tort') than Vergil or indeed to classical literature as a whole, which served rather as a corrective to current notions, just as Tacitus' phrase 'inanis iactatio libertatis' put dissidents and conscientious objectors in a different light, even though he had particular reasons for saying it. Which brings up another difficulty with accepting that interpretations come with their own politics, namely that even when they were conceived in accordance with this or that political outlook or even agenda, they may well outlast it, as it were discarding their political baggage on the way, just as Cicero's _De officiis_, which is amongst other things a political tract in support of Caesar's murderers, became a canonical text even for Dante, who admires Caesar and packs Brutus and Cassius off to nethermost hell with Judas; and just as a scientific or technical discovery made in support of a war remains valid even if the war in question was lost, and long after it has been relegated to the history books. Ideas are no more to be tarred with their parents than people. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon May 08 08:38:11 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 6 May 2000 15:30:20 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id MAA08152; Sat, 06 May 2000 12:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 20:45:02 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's Joint (A. 6,13-19) In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Neven Jovanovic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >Dear all, >while reading the beginning of Aen. 6, our class encountered a problem >regarding mythological education of Vergil's Roman public, and Vergil's >_cut up_ technique. The problem lies in the _joint_ at A. 6,13-14: > iam subeunt Triuiae lucos atque aurea tecta. > Daedalus, ut fama est, fugiens Minoia regna, etc. >Now, the sketch of Daedalus' travels goes on for four verses before the >reader can get some clue on why is Vergil telling this story at this >moment. The explanation comes first at A.6,18-19: > Redditus his primum terris tibi, Phoebe, sacrauit > remigium alarum posuitque immania templa. >Now, the change of subject at A. 6,13-14 comes to _this_ reader as a >surprise. But the class does not think so. They feel that Vergil's >public would naturally (because of their common educational background) >connect the talk about Daedalus with the _aurea tecta_ of A. 6,13. Sorry, I come back to this belatedly, having left it up to answer when I got back from holiday. By no means all Vergil's readers will have Timaeus and Varro (the supposed sources) or been told about it at Cumae; and we cannot entirely exclude the possibility that despite 'ut fama est' Vergil has made it up, in which case they were in the same position as we are. However, one expects that the digression will return to the main road, that what one is they are about to be told will prove relevant to what one has just read, and one is not disappointed. Hence I don't find the transition a problem. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon May 08 08:38:11 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 6 May 2000 17:20:46 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id OAA17413; Sat, 06 May 2000 14:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 17:32:19 -0400 From: Stuart Wheeler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Vergil's Joint (A. 6,13-19) In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Ok, I give up. The message just delivered to me was very interesting but I have to ask about what the below extract means. I don't intend to insult the writer. I just need to know. "that what one is they are about to be told will prove relevant to what one has just read" ? Stuart Wheeler ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon May 15 16:44:17 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 13 May 2000 13:41:48 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id KAA00611; Sat, 13 May 2000 10:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 13:42:41 -0400 From: turnus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: darkness visible Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Organization: Boston University MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Accept-Language: en Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] hi all. i am wondering if anybody knows how i might go about tracking down a copy of prof. w.r. johnson's 'Darkness Visible'. out of print; not at my library (i hate the BU library--they have nothing!); not at any local book shops: i am distraught. hope this is not an impertinence, i know it's a busy time of year... -matthew spencer (the impecunious) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon May 15 16:44:17 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 13 May 2000 16:18:16 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id NAA13967; Sat, 13 May 2000 13:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 13:24:27 -0700 (PDT) From: James Stewart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: darkness visible Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed Precedence: bulk X-Originating-IP: [192.204.148.97] X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host law-f293.hotmail.com [209.185.130.232] claimed to be hotmail.com Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Matthew, Would suggest the quickest way would be BIBLIO FIND- you can search second hand bookstores around the world for copies of books. I believe the URL is: http://www.bibliofind.com You can do it by title or author I believe- it is a very useful service.... Jim Stewart Ursinus College >hi all. >i am wondering if anybody knows how i might go about tracking down a >copy of prof. w.r. johnson's 'Darkness Visible'. out of print; not at my >library (i hate the BU library--they have nothing!); not at any local >book shops: i am distraught. > >hope this is not an impertinence, i know it's a busy time of year... > >-matthew spencer (the impecunious) >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon May 15 16:44:17 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 13 May 2000 18:06:47 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id PAA22714; Sat, 13 May 2000 15:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 18:16:29 -0400 From: Rodger Friedman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: VIRGIL: darkness visible In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm pulsing my network to find Matthew a copy of Darkness Visible, and sooner or later one will turn up. Jim Stewart's suggestion of using Bibliofind is okay as far as it goes. Bibliofind is one of several large databases listing the combined inventory of many used and rare booksellers. I like Advanced Book Exchange (http://abebooks.com) for general books. For a giant step up in professionalism, try the search engine at http://abaa.org, limited to members of the Antiquarian Booksellers Association of America. Best of all, there is a site called "Bookfinder" that automatically searches all of the above and a few others, including an excellent Dutch network of booksellers. The site at http://www.bookfinder.com is without question the most useful instrument on the Internet for locating and purchasing used and rare books. Mantovans, stay away from the highly advertised "Alibris" (http://www.alibris.com). Here is their game: you request a book from them, they buy the book from me at a trade discount, mark it up 40% and sell it to you. Of course, you can buy they same book directly from the original provider at the original price by using "Bookfinder." Alibris is funded with $60 million in venture capital to spend on advertising, hoping to increase demand for used books and at the same time corner the market, effectively doing to independent booksellers what Piggley Wiggley (sp?) did to independent grocers. Rodger Friedman Rare Book Studio One Mystic Circle Tuxedo, NY� 10987 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rarebookstudio.com 914 351 5067 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of James Stewart Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2000 4:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: darkness visible Matthew, Would suggest the quickest way would be BIBLIO FIND- you can search second hand bookstores around the world for copies of books. I believe the URL is: http://www.bibliofind.com You can do it by title or author I believe- it is a very useful service.... Jim Stewart Ursinus College >hi all. >i am wondering if anybody knows how i might go about tracking down a >copy of prof. w.r. johnson's 'Darkness Visible'. out of print; not at my >library (i hate the BU library--they have nothing!); not at any local >book shops: i am distraught. > >hope this is not an impertinence, i know it's a busy time of year... > >-matthew spencer (the impecunious) >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon May 15 16:44:17 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 13 May 2000 19:15:35 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id QAA28474; Sat, 13 May 2000 16:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:30:14 -0400 From: turnus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: darkness visible Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Organization: Boston University MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Accept-Language: en References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank you very much... i really do appreciate it. -matthew spencer Rodger Friedman wrote: > > I'm pulsing my network to find Matthew a copy of Darkness Visible, and > sooner or later one will turn up. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon May 15 16:44:20 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 14 May 2000 11:44:42 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA06040; Sun, 14 May 2000 08:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 16:45:24 +0100 From: "Dr. Helen Conrad-O'Briain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: darkness visible In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.0 (1513) X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host mail1.mail.iol.ie [194.125.2.192] claimed to be mail.iol.ie Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] TRy Bibliofind - seldom lets me down HCOB > From: turnus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Organization: Boston University > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 13:42:41 -0400 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: VIRGIL: darkness visible > > hi all. > i am wondering if anybody knows how i might go about tracking down a > copy of prof. w.r. johnson's 'Darkness Visible'. out of print; not at my > library (i hate the BU library--they have nothing!); not at any local > book shops: i am distraught. > > hope this is not an impertinence, i know it's a busy time of year... > > -matthew spencer (the impecunious) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue May 16 08:42:09 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 16 May 2000 07:38:06 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id EAA17372; Tue, 16 May 2000 04:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:28:29 +0000 (GMT) From: RIFFET MOHAMMED <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: darkness visible Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed Precedence: bulk X-Originating-IP: [193.60.131.9] X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host f111.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.111] claimed to be hotmail.com Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Hey, Matthew i did my dissertation paper on the Virgil's Aeneid and the art of Augustan propaganda and did come across darkness visible in my localish library. mail me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and i'll let you have all the details seeya! >From: turnus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: VIRGIL: darkness visible >Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 13:42:41 -0400 > >hi all. >i am wondering if anybody knows how i might go about tracking down a >copy of prof. w.r. johnson's 'Darkness Visible'. out of print; not at my >library (i hate the BU library--they have nothing!); not at any local >book shops: i am distraught. > >hope this is not an impertinence, i know it's a busy time of year... > >-matthew spencer (the impecunious) >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri May 19 08:17:35 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 19 May 2000 07:24:20 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id EAA13909; Fri, 19 May 2000 04:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 04:06:34 -0700 (PDT) From: James Stewart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Re: Darkness Visible Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed Precedence: bulk X-Originating-IP: [192.204.145.35] X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host law-f118.hotmail.com [209.185.131.181] claimed to be hotmail.com Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Matthew, Was in my favourite second hand store (W H Allen in Philadelphia) and they have a copy of Darkness Visible on the shelves for $6. Don't have their phone number or e-mail at hand, but they are easily found out- address is 2031 Walnut Street in Philadelphia, PA. They do ship- and this would cost a pittance, even going overseas- pretty small paperback book. Hope that helps you, if you haven't found it already Jim ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri May 19 08:17:35 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 19 May 2000 07:39:26 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id EAA17347; Fri, 19 May 2000 04:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 08:40:51 -0300 From: John Geyssen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Re: Darkness Visible Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Accept-Language: en References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit Allen's at http://www.whallenbooks.com/index.html and order that way. jg James Stewart wrote: > Matthew, > Was in my favourite second hand store (W H Allen in Philadelphia) and > they have a copy of Darkness Visible on the shelves for $6. Don't have their > phone number or e-mail at hand, but they are easily found out- address is > 2031 Walnut Street in Philadelphia, PA. > They do ship- and this would cost a pittance, even going overseas- > pretty small paperback book. > Hope that helps you, if you haven't found it already > > Jim > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed May 24 10:38:21 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 23 May 2000 16:14:53 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id MAA24653; Tue, 23 May 2000 12:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:59:51 -0400 From: emery rogers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: just curious? Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] I love to read and I'm a first-year student at a local community college. I wrote a paper for my Shakespeare class, and I'm not exactly certain if my understanding (of this subject) is at all accurate (my teacher didn't address this part of my essay, and it's driving me nuts not knowing whether or not it's right). Can you help me? To introduce my question: I'm amused by the vast usage of the "play within a play" idea inside the tragedy of Shakespeare's Hamlet. I believe that it supports the imbalance in the world (both inside and out). I think that through the Prince of Denmark, Shakespeare introduces a mirror tale (?), being Vergils Aeneid -- is this correct? And if so, is this following exert (from my paper) at all an accurate comprehension of the meaning behind the reference (and shakespeare's piece in general)? "Son of Achilles, slay me, and pity not my misery. I have no will to see the sun's light more."(Quintus Smyrnaeus, The fall of Troy...) Upon those words, the wrath of young Neoptolemus crashed through the Kings most sacred temple. The mighty fell dismembered - slew at the gate of his own palace. Black on black, no gold can save? (Does this sound familiar?) "Aeneas caused her death and lent the blade, Dido by her own hand in dust was laid."(Ovid,Heroides...) Cause and effect, cause and effect (eventually creating circular causality?); our conscience is our certainty. The battlefield present in the heart/mind of man, sets the dutiful Aeneas in a Dionysian ocean.(?) Act or be acted upon - is this where Shakespeare is guiding us in Hamlet? We can not live in complete moderation (this being a utopian principle); however we can attempt to balance between the do and don't do avoiding the extremes of each, which perhaps leads to our overall torment.(?) (Granted there are a lot of holes 'cause you're only seeing a small part of the paper, but...) Is this at all what the authors are getting at, or am I way off (in other words do I need to hit the books again)? Would greatly appreciate any feedback. Thanks for your time! -Sherry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu May 25 20:48:49 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 25 May 2000 16:39:19 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id NAA09058; Thu, 25 May 2000 13:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 16:10:17 -0400 (EDT) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VIRGIL: NOVUS ORDO SAECLORUM -- Summer Seminar at C.A.N.E. Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 100 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] List members may be interested in the announcement of a Summer 2000 seminar at Dartmouth College on the topic: NOVUS ORDO SAECLORUM: The Refounding of Rome in the Age of Augustus. The week-long seminar, 18th in an annual series, consists of two public lectures each morning, followed by the enrollee's choice of two (of 15) afternoon classes on topics in history, literature, archaeology and anthropology. Lectures and classes are given by senior scholars and are crafted to be of particular interest to secondary-school teachers, both in the classics and in other disciplines, although enrollees also include others interested in the classics, both academics and the general public. For further information, visit the CANE website at www.wellesley.edu/GreekandLatin/CANE/cane.html or write to: Prof. Edward M. Bradley CANE Institute 6086 Reed Hall Dartmouth College Hanover, New Hampshire 03755-3506 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri May 26 12:27:15 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 26 May 2000 11:03:10 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id HAA18377; Fri, 26 May 2000 07:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 20:53:14 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Ascanius & Silvius Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Unverified) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host musi46.musi.macalester.edu [141.140.43.46] claimed to be oldm113-13116 Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] The list has been quiet now for several weeks -- in part, I take it because it's the end of term, and members are either writing final papers or grading them. Earlier this week, however, I received the following query from a new subscriber in Germany: > this may be a silly question but could anyone tell me what happened >to Ascanius after the end of the Aeneid? This is not a silly question. On the contrary, it's bothered me for about two years. Not because we don't know, more or less, what happens: according to Aen. 1.271, Ascanius lives to found the city of Alba Longa. What bothers me is that other chap, Silvius. Ascanius, of course, is the son of Aeneas's first marriage, with Creusa; according to Aen. 6.760-66, however, Aeneas is also going to have a son with his Latin wife, Lavinia. His name will be Silvius, and although Ascanius gets most of the press in the poem, it's Silvius who's actually going to run things. Now Austin's commentary points out that there were two traditions about Silvius. According to Livy and Ovid, he was the son, not of Aeneas, but of Ascanius. But according to Cato (as preserved in Servius, in Aen. 6.760) Silvius was the son of Aeneas and Lavinia. Obviously in this instance Virgil is following the Catonian tradition. What Austin doesn't point out is that, according to Cato (again, by way of Servius), the reason that Silvius is called Silvius is because Silvius's mom, Lavinia, was afraid that Ascanius was afraid that the newborn would displace him, and took to hiding in the forest (silva), hence the name Silvius (which we might translate, quite properly, as Woody). There's another odd thing about this passage: according to Aen. 6.764, Lavinia will give birth to Silvius when Aeneas is an old man (tibi longaeuo); this, as commentators from Servius onwards have pointed out, is a problem, since Aen. 1.265 suggests that Aeneas is going to be dead within three years of conquering Italy. Various solutions have been proposed, but as James O'Hara points out (Death and the Optimistic Prophecy, p. 147), Virgil _did_ have options: he didn't have to choose the Catonian genealogy. So what was he trying to accomplish? To my mind, the implicit reference to Cato's tale of the feuding half-brothers is even more troubling than the longaeuo epithet, but Jim's observation is still pertinent. Why did Virgil choose the problematic version of the story, the version with the feuding brothers? Wasn't one Romulus and Remus enough? I have some more ideas on this, but it's time for me to shut up and listen. What say ye, mantovani? (Obitaneously, Servius and Cato weren't the only ones to worry about the potential rivalry between Ascanius and his half-brother Silvius; as Tiberius Claudius Donatus points out, Creusa seems to be worried about the same thing when she adjures Aeneas not to let his new wife crowd out his love for the son he already has: "et nati serua nati serua communis amorem" [Aen. 2.789].) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri May 26 12:27:16 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 26 May 2000 12:06:59 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id JAA29207; Fri, 26 May 2000 09:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:59:14 +0100 From: Dan King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Ascanius & Silvius Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Organization: Hedge MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] I guess Virgil's problem is that Augustus has a vested interest in both the sons of Aeneas. On the one hand, the gens Iulia must be shown to be of Trojan stock, and the Ascanius in the story has to be made the forerunner to Augustus. On the other hand, the whole point of the Lavinia marriage is that it is the forerunner of Augustus' reuniting the peoples of Italy - thus Alba Longa has to be portrayed as a Latin-founded town with Italian virtues etc. Dionysius sort of gets round the problem by having Silvius found the city while Ascanius (or Iulus) is the first priest, thus foreshadowing the pontificate of his 'descendents' in the Julian house, JC and Augustus. Livy is well aware of the problem too. In 1.1 Ascanius is the progeny of the Lavinia marriage, nice and simple. However, in 1.3 he opens up the possibility of their being 2 Ascaniuses, one from Creusa - whom the Julian house claim as ancestor - and one from Lavinia. Livy seems quite content with the latter only, as he is clearly given the job of founding Alba Longa and of being the father of Silvius, who is the next king. As so often , Livy is having a jibe at Julian propaganda and the problems it throws up for the myths which are, in any case, wholly negotiable, as he is well aware. Vergil and Dionysius feel more tied to finding a solution than Livy seems to. Dan King > The list has been quiet now for several weeks -- in part, I take it because > it's the end of term, and members are either writing final papers or > grading them. Earlier this week, however, I received the following query > from a new subscriber in Germany: > > > this may be a silly question but could anyone tell me what happened > >to Ascanius after the end of the Aeneid? > > This is not a silly question. On the contrary, it's bothered me for about > two years. Not because we don't know, more or less, what happens: according > to Aen. 1.271, Ascanius lives to found the city of Alba Longa. > What bothers me is that other chap, Silvius. > Ascanius, of course, is the son of Aeneas's first marriage, with Creusa; > according to Aen. 6.760-66, however, Aeneas is also going to have a son > with his Latin wife, Lavinia. His name will be Silvius, and although > Ascanius gets most of the press in the poem, it's Silvius who's actually > going to run things. > Now Austin's commentary points out that there were two traditions about > Silvius. According to Livy and Ovid, he was the son, not of Aeneas, but of > Ascanius. But according to Cato (as preserved in Servius, in Aen. 6.760) > Silvius was the son of Aeneas and Lavinia. Obviously in this instance > Virgil is following the Catonian tradition. What Austin doesn't point out > is that, according to Cato (again, by way of Servius), the reason that > Silvius is called Silvius is because Silvius's mom, Lavinia, was afraid > that Ascanius was afraid that the newborn would displace him, and took to > hiding in the forest (silva), hence the name Silvius (which we might > translate, quite properly, as Woody). > There's another odd thing about this passage: according to Aen. 6.764, > Lavinia will give birth to Silvius when Aeneas is an old man (tibi > longaeuo); this, as commentators from Servius onwards have pointed out, is > a problem, since Aen. 1.265 suggests that Aeneas is going to be dead within > three years of conquering Italy. Various solutions have been proposed, but > as James O'Hara points out (Death and the Optimistic Prophecy, p. 147), > Virgil _did_ have options: he didn't have to choose the Catonian genealogy. > So what was he trying to accomplish? > To my mind, the implicit reference to Cato's tale of the feuding > half-brothers is even more troubling than the longaeuo epithet, but Jim's > observation is still pertinent. Why did Virgil choose the problematic > version of the story, the version with the feuding brothers? Wasn't one > Romulus and Remus enough? > I have some more ideas on this, but it's time for me to shut up and > listen. What say ye, mantovani? (Obitaneously, Servius and Cato weren't the > only ones to worry about the potential rivalry between Ascanius and his > half-brother Silvius; as Tiberius Claudius Donatus points out, Creusa seems > to be worried about the same thing when she adjures Aeneas not to let his > new wife crowd out his love for the son he already has: "et nati serua nati > serua communis amorem" [Aen. 2.789].) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat May 27 09:52:23 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 26 May 2000 18:26:41 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id PAA19412; Fri, 26 May 2000 15:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 22:40:28 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Ascanius & Silvius In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > There's another odd thing about this passage: according to Aen. 6.764, >Lavinia will give birth to Silvius when Aeneas is an old man (tibi >longaeuo); this, as commentators from Servius Before Silvius: see Aulus Gellius, _Noctes Atticae_ 2. 16. Caesellius Vindex, in the early second century AD, had reinterpreted 'postuma' according to its etymological sense of 'last', but without citing authority for Silvius' being born while Aeneas was still alive; Gellius' own teacher Sulpicius Apollinaris, who criticized Caesellius on several counts, preferred to take _longaeuo_ as a meiosis for _immortali_, i.e. already dead and deified. Gellius is not convinced, but offers no solution of his own; in fact the meiosis is easily paralleled, but usually in contexts that make it clear. My own view, expressed in my unpublished thesis on Book 2 of Gellius in 1971 and in my monograph of 1988, is that Caesellius was right: Vergil, in the interest of the Julian dynasty, was 'correcting' the Catonian account with a touching Darby and Joan scene, just as Livy 1. 3. 6 emolliently fathers Post. Silvius on Ascanius: 'Silvius deinde regnat Ascanii filius, casu quodam in siluis editus'. Cato's _Origines_, when Vergil and Livy wrote, was much better known than it is now; the tale of Lavinia's flight was not an obscure myth that a few sophisticated readers could employ in the manner of liberal academia and the secret police to deconstruct and subvert an apparently loyal text, but a standard account to be met head on: 'You have all heard the story of how Lavinia fled before Ascanius; I assure you, it wasn't like that. The true story is . . .'. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat May 27 09:52:28 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 27 May 2000 06:55:30 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id EAA26305; Sat, 27 May 2000 04:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 07:05:09 +0800 From: Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Ascanius & Silvius In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1252740147==_ma============" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp.wesleyan.edu [129.133.1.61] claimed to be mail.wesleyan.edu Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-rich><excerpt>In message <<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Wilson-Okamura <<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > There's another odd thing about this passage: according to Aen. 6.764, >Lavinia will give birth to Silvius when Aeneas is an old man (tibi >longaeuo); this, as commentators from Servius Before Silvius: see Aulus Gellius, _Noctes Atticae_ 2. 16. Caesellius Vindex, in the early second century AD, had reinterpreted 'postuma' according to its etymological sense of 'last', but without citing authority for Silvius' being born while Aeneas was still alive; Gellius' own teacher Sulpicius Apollinaris, who criticized Caesellius on several counts, preferred to take _longaeuo_ as a meiosis for _immortali_, i.e. already dead and deified. Gellius is not convinced, but offers no solution of his own; in fact the meiosis is easily paralleled, but usually in contexts that make it clear. My own view, expressed in my unpublished thesis on Book 2 of Gellius in 1971 and in my monograph of 1988, is that Caesellius was right: Vergil, in the interest of the Julian dynasty, was 'correcting' the Catonian account with a touching Darby and Joan scene, just as Livy 1. 3. 6 emolliently fathers Post. Silvius on Ascanius: 'Silvius deinde regnat Ascanii filius, casu quodam in siluis editus'. Cato's _Origines_, when Vergil and Livy wrote, was much better known than it is now; the tale of Lavinia's flight was not an obscure myth that a few sophisticated readers could employ in the manner of liberal academia and the secret police to deconstruct and subvert an apparently loyal text, but a standard account to be met head on: 'You have all heard the story of how Lavinia fled before Ascanius; I assure you, it wasn't like that. The true story is . . .'. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* </excerpt> <fontfamily><param>Times_New_Roman</param><bigger><bigger>Interesting mix of learning, bizarre reading, and questionable notions about how a text can work on a reader. That longaevus might mean Aeneas will be "already dead and deified" is certain, but any human being who hears the ghost of his dead father say that a son will be born to him when he is "longaevus" will reasonably think that he will be an old man when the son is born. Thus Anchises' words to Aeneas fit into a pattern both within and outside of the Aeneid whereby prophecies deceive. The reference to something "a few sophisticated readers could employ in the manner of liberal academia and the secret police to deconstruct and subvert an apparently loyal text" is what </bigger></bigger></fontfamily><bigger><bigger><fontfamily><param>Times</param>strikes me as extremely bizarre. If LHS thinks the deception here is easy to spot, all the better, but what do liberals and secret police have to do with this? Further, does he not think that there are uses of obscure myth in poets from Callimachus onward, and cases where the reader must be challenged to see what is going on? A huge body of scholarship on many poets, by a variety of persons of apparently varied political views, has clearly established this. If you think a particular case does not fit this pattern, make your argument, but we don't need to hear about secret police. Why should any contributions to this list include such bizarre and unmotivated sneers at rival views? </fontfamily></bigger></bigger> </x-rich> From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun May 28 16:07:59 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 27 May 2000 20:51:02 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id SAA13656; Sat, 27 May 2000 18:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 21:05:59 +0800 From: Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Ascanius & Silvius In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp.wesleyan.edu [129.133.1.61] claimed to be mail.wesleyan.edu Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] >In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jim O'Hara ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > > > >The reference to something "a few sophisticated readers could employ in >the > >manner of liberal academia and the secret police to deconstruct and >subvert an > >apparently loyal text" etc. and LHS answered saying inter alia >My, I touched on a nerve here:..... Liberal >academics like it because they are .... Yes, but you've missed my main point, on which I should become clear. This List should not be a place to take random, unnecessary swipes at either "liberal academics" or "right wing whackos" or "clueless royalists" or any such group. Neither in the classroom nor in print nor in List like this should senior Classicists make sneering irrelevant remarks about "academic liberals" or "right wing whackos". If this List becomes hospitable to such remarks, I'm gone. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat May 27 09:57:24 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 27 May 2000 09:52:19 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id HAA11513; Sat, 27 May 2000 07:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 14:59:34 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Ascanius & Silvius In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >The reference to something "a few sophisticated readers could employ in the >manner of liberal academia and the secret police to deconstruct and subvert an >apparently loyal text" etc. My, I touched on a nerve here: the shared agenda in both places of finding writers covertly hostile to the holders of power. Liberal academics like it because they are hostile to power-holders; secret policemen, being paid to uncover subversion, naturally wish to do so, though being in general less intelligent than liberal academics are less ingenious at it. (Perhaps the KGB, or whatever it's called now, should give courses in deconstructive and anti-grain reading.) But as to Silvius, my point is that when previous text A and new text B are in conflict, that does not automatically mean that A is being relied on to subvert B; why should not B be intended to blot out A? My hypothesis is that, for subversion amongst the cognoscenti, an obscure A (the recondite Callimachean myths JO'H mentions) is more suitable (not least for the pleasure it gives the said cognoscenti at being in on the secret) than a well-known one, which the less sophisticated reader will perceive to be contradicted by the new version B; I also deny that a story in Cato's _Origines_ was obscure at the time, even if Livy would in time render him as obsolete as Vergil would Ennius. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat May 27 18:34:44 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 27 May 2000 18:10:44 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id PAA28937; Sat, 27 May 2000 15:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 17:28:26 -0500 From: Randi C Eldevik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Ascanius & Silvius Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.1a August 17, 1999 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on osu-ns05/Okstate(Release 5.0.3 |March 21, 2000) at 05/27/2000 05:28:26 PM Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't think "tibi longaevo" has to mean that Aeneas is absolutely ancient when Silvius was born. It just means that Silvius will be Aeneas's last-born son. Just what age should we picture Aeneas as being when he reaches Italy? He has fought ten years in the Trojan War, plus he has gone through all the time spent wandering since then. There is no reason to imagine him a raw recruit at the beginning of the Trojan War; he could already be an experienced warrior in his 30's when hostilities break out. By the time Aeneas reaches Italy, he has a son old enough to go around shooting deer with arrows. Then, even after marrying Lavinia, he has another three years of life. He could easily be 50 by the time Silvius is born; and 50 might be called "longaevus" in the 1st c. B.C., mightn't it? Randi Eldevik Oklahoma State University David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: cc: (bcc: Randi C [EMAIL PROTECTED] Eldevik/engl/cas/Okstate) oninet.com Subject: VIRGIL: Ascanius & Silvius 05/25/00 08:53 PM Please respond to mantovano The list has been quiet now for several weeks -- in part, I take it because it's the end of term, and members are either writing final papers or grading them. Earlier this week, however, I received the following query from a new subscriber in Germany: > this may be a silly question but could anyone tell me what happened >to Ascanius after the end of the Aeneid? This is not a silly question. On the contrary, it's bothered me for about two years. Not because we don't know, more or less, what happens: according to Aen. 1.271, Ascanius lives to found the city of Alba Longa. What bothers me is that other chap, Silvius. Ascanius, of course, is the son of Aeneas's first marriage, with Creusa; according to Aen. 6.760-66, however, Aeneas is also going to have a son with his Latin wife, Lavinia. His name will be Silvius, and although Ascanius gets most of the press in the poem, it's Silvius who's actually going to run things. Now Austin's commentary points out that there were two traditions about Silvius. According to Livy and Ovid, he was the son, not of Aeneas, but of Ascanius. But according to Cato (as preserved in Servius, in Aen. 6.760) Silvius was the son of Aeneas and Lavinia. Obviously in this instance Virgil is following the Catonian tradition. What Austin doesn't point out is that, according to Cato (again, by way of Servius), the reason that Silvius is called Silvius is because Silvius's mom, Lavinia, was afraid that Ascanius was afraid that the newborn would displace him, and took to hiding in the forest (silva), hence the name Silvius (which we might translate, quite properly, as Woody). There's another odd thing about this passage: according to Aen. 6.764, Lavinia will give birth to Silvius when Aeneas is an old man (tibi longaeuo); this, as commentators from Servius onwards have pointed out, is a problem, since Aen. 1.265 suggests that Aeneas is going to be dead within three years of conquering Italy. Various solutions have been proposed, but as James O'Hara points out (Death and the Optimistic Prophecy, p. 147), Virgil _did_ have options: he didn't have to choose the Catonian genealogy. So what was he trying to accomplish? To my mind, the implicit reference to Cato's tale of the feuding half-brothers is even more troubling than the longaeuo epithet, but Jim's observation is still pertinent. Why did Virgil choose the problematic version of the story, the version with the feuding brothers? Wasn't one Romulus and Remus enough? I have some more ideas on this, but it's time for me to shut up and listen. What say ye, mantovani? (Obitaneously, Servius and Cato weren't the only ones to worry about the potential rivalry between Ascanius and his half-brother Silvius; as Tiberius Claudius Donatus points out, Creusa seems to be worried about the same thing when she adjures Aeneas not to let his new wife crowd out his love for the son he already has: "et nati serua nati serua communis amorem" [Aen. 2.789].) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun May 28 16:07:56 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 27 May 2000 19:44:11 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id QAA07163; Sat, 27 May 2000 16:53:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 00:09:53 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Ascanius & Silvius In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Randi C Eldevik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > > I don't think "tibi longaevo" has to mean that Aeneas is absolutely >ancient when Silvius was born. It just means that Silvius will be Aeneas's >last-born son. > Just what age should we picture Aeneas as being when he reaches Italy? >He has fought ten years in the Trojan War, plus he has gone through all the >time spent wandering since then. There is no reason to imagine him a raw >recruit at the beginning of the Trojan War; he could already be an >experienced warrior in his 30's when hostilities break out. By the time >Aeneas reaches Italy, he has a son old enough to go around shooting deer >with arrows. Then, even after marrying Lavinia, he has another three years >of life. He could easily be 50 by the time Silvius is born; and 50 might >be called "longaevus" in the 1st c. B.C., mightn't it? Certainly, and even in the Renaissance. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun May 28 16:08:07 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 28 May 2000 00:17:32 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id VAA01217; Sat, 27 May 2000 21:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 00:37:51 -0400 (EDT) From: ? ? <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: just curious? Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed Precedence: bulk X-Originating-IP: [208.22.246.51] X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host law-f49.hotmail.com [209.185.130.37] claimed to be hotmail.com Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] i think ya may be fucked >From: emery rogers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: VIRGIL: just curious? >Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:59:51 -0400 > > I love to read and I'm a first-year student at a local community > college. >I wrote a paper for my Shakespeare class, and I'm not exactly certain if my >understanding (of this subject) is at all accurate (my teacher didn't >address this part of my essay, and it's driving me nuts not knowing whether >or not it's right). Can you help me? > To introduce my question: I'm amused by the vast usage of the "play > within >a play" idea inside the tragedy of Shakespeare's Hamlet. I believe that it >supports the imbalance in the world (both inside and out). I think that >through the Prince of Denmark, Shakespeare introduces a mirror tale (?), >being Vergils Aeneid -- is this correct? And if so, is this following exert >(from my paper) at all an accurate comprehension of the meaning behind the >reference (and shakespeare's piece in general)? > "Son of Achilles, slay me, and pity not my misery. I have no will to > see > the sun's light more."(Quintus Smyrnaeus, The fall of Troy...) Upon > those >words, the wrath of young Neoptolemus crashed through the Kings most >sacred temple. The mighty fell dismembered - slew at the gate of his own >palace. Black on black, no gold can save? (Does this sound familiar?) >"Aeneas caused her death and lent the blade, Dido by her own hand in dust >was laid."(Ovid,Heroides...) > Cause and effect, cause and effect (eventually creating circular >causality?); our conscience is our certainty. The battlefield present in >the heart/mind of man, sets the dutiful Aeneas in a Dionysian ocean.(?) >Act or be acted upon - is this where Shakespeare is guiding us in Hamlet? >We can not live in complete moderation (this being a utopian principle); >however we can attempt to balance between the do and don't do avoiding the >extremes of each, which perhaps leads to our overall torment.(?) >(Granted there are a lot of holes 'cause you're only seeing a small part of >the paper, but...) Is this at all what the authors are getting at, or am I >way off (in other words do I need to hit the books again)? Would greatly >appreciate any feedback. Thanks for your time! -Sherry > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun May 28 16:08:18 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 28 May 2000 06:33:29 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id DAA02241; Sun, 28 May 2000 03:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 11:45:53 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Ascanius & Silvius In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >>In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jim O'Hara >><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >> > >> >The reference to something "a few sophisticated readers could employ in >>the >> >manner of liberal academia and the secret police to deconstruct and >>subvert an >> >apparently loyal text" etc. > >and LHS answered saying inter alia > >>My, I touched on a nerve here:..... Liberal >>academics like it because they are >.... > >Yes, but you've missed my main point, on which I should become clear. >This List should not be a place to take random, unnecessary swipes at >either "liberal academics" or "right wing whackos" or "clueless >royalists" or any such group. Neither in the classroom nor in print >nor in List like this should senior Classicists make sneering >irrelevant remarks about "academic liberals" or "right wing whackos". >If this List becomes hospitable to such remarks, I'm gone. When I made a remark about Vergil's sympathies that I thought was innocuous and was certainly not original, back came the reply that it had its own politics, as if I were wittingly or not furthering some political agenda or other (I still don't know what); it was also asserted in further argument that no-one came to Vergil without politics. On that hypothesis remarks about liberals, or indeed right- wing whackos (who in America are whacko all right, but in my book just liberals who fetishize different liberties), are very unlikely to be irrelevant; but if they are offensive, I am ready to apologize and forbear, on condition that any idea I and other people may advance is not politically contextualized against us. For the record, let me say that I find the notion of an ambiguous prophecy interesting. In Anchises' words, something has to give: postuma and longaeuo cannot both have their normal meanings. If Aeneas takes postuma in Caesellius' sense, but Anchises means longaeuo in Sulpicius', Vergil is having his Catonian cake and eating it. If only he were Lycophron, this would certainIy be right; he is not, but then this is a prophecy. Leofranc Holford-Strevens > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed May 31 09:28:02 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 30 May 2000 15:17:45 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id MAA04044; Tue, 30 May 2000 12:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:11:21 -0500 From: Randi C Eldevik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Lee on the _Aeneid_ Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.1a August 17, 1999 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on osu-ns05/Okstate(Release 5.0.3 |March 21, 2000) at 05/30/2000 02:11:21 PM Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Things have been slow lately on Mantovano--it's that time of year, I guess. With a few weeks still before I myself go off for the summer, I thought I'd bring up something that I find interesting. It's a nice commentary on the _Aeneid_ by M. Owen Lee in a book devoted to opera, of all things (the tie-in is, of course, Berlioz's opera _Les Troyens_). I'd say that Lee's comments here do a great job of articulating, in condensed form, what critics have been discussing for decades now: But above all Augustus wanted an epic, an _Iliad_ if he could have it, about his victory at Actium. He wanted a poem to justify his past, of which he was not altogether proud, and to help him forge a future. That was an epic no one wanted to write - Virgil least of all. But Augustus had ways of applying pressure. Other poets who crossed the great man suffered: Ovid was banished to the Black Sea and never recalled, and Gallus, Virgil's friend and, reportedly, his equal in poetic skill, was publicly dis- graced and his works destroyed. Gallus took his own life. So Virgil undertook to do what Augustus wanted. But he was not ready to devote a large part of his life to mere propaganda. Instead of a versified chronicle about Augustus's career, he reached back beyond history, back even further than Rome's legendary foundation, to Homer's Trojan War, to the mythic story that a cousin of Hector's, Aeneas, had escaped from the captured city, taken shelter in Carthage, come to Italy, fought to establish himself there, and fathered the Trojan-Italian race that would someday found Rome. . . . Augustus . . . may, when he finally saw his epic, have been surprised, even dismayed, to discover that he had to read hundreds of lines before he came to even an indirect reference to Actium. But if he was a sensitive man (and I think he was), he sensed soon enough that the new epic _was_ what he had asked for. Aeneas was an emblem of himself, leading his people from a fallen republic, to a ris- ing empire. Dido was, on one level, Cleopatra, and Turnus was Antony. The poem was a _symbolic_ portrayal of his recent wars. And more than that, it spoke symbolically of _all_ the cruel wars of Rome's past. For Dido was also defeated Carthage, and Turnus was the vanquished tribes of Italy. the whole poem was a massive metaphor. It said , between the lines, that there was goodness and guilt on both sides in the civil wars just ended and in all of Rome's wars before that. It said many things, too, about the nature of God, the existence of evil, the tragic choices involved in doing one's duty. (Its thematic words are fate, fury, and piety.) It was, finally concerned with absolving national and personal guilt (read today: Vietnam and the Gulf War) and with building a better world. And it was mostly pessimistic about the possibilities. The nineteenth century did not see Virgil this way, and Berlioz ought not to be faulted if he did not try to make his Virgilian opera an ambivalent comment on the Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars that had ravaged his France, killed off its best men, and changed its vision. We ought not to be critical if he thought the _Aeneid_ a justification of empire rather than, as many see it now, a searching meditation on it. (M. Owen Lee, _A Season of Opera_, University of Toronto Press, 2000, pp. 105-106) Reactions? I know this is hardly new stuff; rather, it's a case (for me) of "what oft was thought, but ne'er so well expressed." I just like the way Lee puts this. Randi Eldevik Oklahoma State University ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed May 31 09:28:08 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 31 May 2000 02:57:55 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id AAA14697; Wed, 31 May 2000 00:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 09:01:12 +0200 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Zimmermann) Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Lee on the _Aeneid_ Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.3 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Randi C Eldevik schrieb: > ... I'd say that Lee's > comments here do a great job of articulating, in condensed form, what > critics have been discussing for decades now: > ... (M. Owen Lee, _A Season of Opera_, University of Toronto > Press, 2000, pp. 105-106) > Reactions? I know this is hardly new stuff; rather, it's a case (for me) > of "what oft was thought, but ne'er so well expressed." I just like the > way Lee puts this. oh ja! ein hervorragendes Resumee! Das trifft den Nagel auf den Kopf, mit wenigen Schl�gen, das sitzt! vielen Dank f�r diese gut brauchbare Kurzfassung, grusz, hansz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Jun 01 08:21:55 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 31 May 2000 20:55:53 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id RAA19514; Wed, 31 May 2000 17:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:44:01 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: summer Eclogues study Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] P L E A S E C R O S S P O S T Starting Monday, June 19, Virgil.org is going to sponsor a five-week study of the first five eclogues. Interested? Details follow in FAQ format. What kind of people will be in the study? I'm hoping that we'll get a mix of students, professional scholars, and amateurs. The only prerequisite: you must be able to read, or at least puzzle out with the aid of a translation, the Latin text. Why just the first five eclogues? Wouldn't it be better to study the book as a whole? Ideally, we'd take ten weeks and do the whole book in one summer, with an extra week or two at the end to talk about the relation of parts to whole. I've learned, however, that most online studies fizzle out after five or six weeks, whether you're finished with the text or not. Obviously I'd like to come back to the rest of the eclogues and finish the book, but we can talk about that when we finish the first five poems. When you say "study," what do you mean? The goal of this study is to get close to the poems. The first stage in getting close to any poem is to work through it word by word, translating if necessary. If this were a college classroom, we'd probably take turns translating, pausing to discuss vexed points of interpretation as we went. Needless to say, email doesn't work like that. (Chat could, but then we'd have to settle on a time when everyone could log on. Hah!) Instead, we're going to start off each week's discussion with the assumption that everyone has already gone through the poem for that week, looked up the unfamiliar words, and puzzled out the grammar and syntax. This doesn't mean you can't ask a grammar question now and then, it just means that grammar and translation won't be the focus of our discussion. What's your take on the Eclogues? I don't know yet. Some participants will probably come to the discussion with well-formed opinions; I hope they'll share them. But again, the goal of this study is to get closer to the poems, not to promulgate a particular interpretation. Can I get college credit for participating? No. If need be, I'll probably prime the pump with some questions to get us started, but there's no teacher and no course credit. On the other hand, there aren't any papers or exams, either. How do I join? First, DON'T reply to this message. Unlike Mantovano, which runs on a Majordomo server at Virgil.org, the Eclogues study will use eGroups <http://www.egroups.com>, which is designed for group efforts like this one. Signing up with eGroups (if you're not already a member) is easy easy and free. Start by pointing your web browser here: http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/eclogues If you're not already an eGroups member, you'll need to register. Look for the "Click here to register for FREE link" on the right side of the page and click on it. You'll be asked for your email address, your gender, a date of birth, and your zip/postal code. You will also be asked to choose a password. You will NOT be asked for personal information like your name, phone number, or street address, and eGroups promises not to give away or sell your information without your consent. Does it cost anything? No. eGroups is free, and if you don't have a text of the Eclogues you can download one for free from the Files section and print it out. If you prefer a book to a printout, there are also two or three paperback editions with the Latin text and an English translation on facing pages. If your library doesn't have them (or if you like to mark up the text you're reading), you can buy them online David Ferry's translation (with Latin on facing pages). This is brand new, so I haven't seen it yet, but his translation of Horace has been justly praised. In North America, from Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0374526966/hesperiaA/ In the UK, from Amazon.co.uk http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0374526966/820 Guy Lee's translation (with Latin on facing pages). This is the revised edition of the Penguin translation. In North America, from Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=014044419X/hesperiaA/ In the UK, from Amazon.co.uk http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/014044419X/820 Recommended books I strongly recommend that you borrow or buy a commentary on the Eclogues. The one that I use most often is by Wendell Clausen (Oxford University Press, 1995). If your bookstore or library doesn't have it, you can order it here: In North America, from Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0198150350/hesperiaA/ In the UK, from Amazon.co.uk http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0198150350/820 Also very good is the text and commentary by Robert Coleman (Cambridge University Press, 1977): In North America, from Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0521291070/hesperiaA/ In the UK, from Amazon.co.uk http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521291070/820 Still have questions? Send an email to the moderator, David Wilson-Okamura (Macalester College), at [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Jun 01 08:21:58 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 1 Jun 2000 03:08:43 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id XAA04476; Wed, 31 May 2000 23:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 01:56:31 -0500 From: "Christian W. Hess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: new query: In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Content-type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><html> Hi...I'm new to the list, so I'm not quite familiar with protocol, etc. but here's my guess...<br> As for the first question, my Eliot has 'apothanein thelo'; I'm guessing apothanim is a misprint. <br> As for the second, the Petronius seems to be a reference to the story about the Sibyl in Ovid's Metamorphoses, Book XIV (I'm sorry, I don't know the line numbers), who asked Apollo for long life, but forgot to ask for eternal youth. If I understand the story correctly, she thus kept growing older, shrinking, decaying, but couldn't die, and lived on, suspended inside a bottle.<br> Just a guess (could be wrong). Slightly off-topic, I suppose, but oh well...<br> Anyway, salvete omnes...<br> <br> At 12:28 AM 06/01/2000 -0700, you wrote: <br> <font size=2><blockquote type=cite cite>In reading Eliot's "The Wasteland," I was confused by the Latin of Petronius' <font size=2><i>Satiricon </i><font size=2>XLVIII selected for his dedication: </font><br> <font size=3> <br> </font><font size=2> Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla pendere, et cum illi pueri dicerent: </font><br> <font size=2> "Sibylla, ti thelis?," </font><br> <font size=2> respondebat illa: </font><br> <font size=2> "apothanim thelo."</font><br> <font size=3> <br> </font><font size=2>My understanding is that "apothanim thelo" should read "apothanein thelo," what I remember to be the correct form of the infinitive. What really baffles me, however, is the phrase in ampulla pendere, where pendere can only be the infinitive, from the third conjugation pendo, right? What on earth is Petronius having the Sibyl do? How does she appear to these boys? I don't recall her being some kind of gennie in a bottle. Is she hanging over, not in the ampulla? Please eluciadate and point me in the right direction. Thank you.</font><br> <font size=3> <br> </font><font size=2>Michael Feagler</font></blockquote><br> <br> <br> <br> "<i>You Shall Not Subject Your God to Market Forces!"<br> -</i>Commandment of Om</html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Jun 01 08:21:58 2000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 1 Jun 2000 02:17:08 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id WAA27712; Wed, 31 May 2000 22:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 00:28:27 -0700 From: michael feagler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: new query: Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01BFCB60.4DE95720" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type> <META content="MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=2>In reading Eliot's "The Wasteland," I was confused by the Latin of Petronius' <EM>Satiricon </EM>XLVIII selected for his dedication: </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2> Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla pendere, et cum illi pueri dicerent: </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2> "Sibylla, ti thelis?," </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2> respondebat illa: </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2> "apothanim thelo."</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>My understanding is that "apothanim thelo" should read "apothanein thelo," what I remember to be the correct form of the infinitive. What really baffles me, however, is the phrase in ampulla pendere, where pendere can only be the infinitive, from the third conjugation pendo, right? What on earth is Petronius having the Sibyl do? How does she appear to these boys? I don't recall her being some kind of gennie in a bottle. Is she hanging over, not in the ampulla? Please eluciadate and point me in the right direction. Thank you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Michael Feagler</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Jun 01 08:22:00 2000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 1 Jun 2000 05:54:07 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id DAA23395; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 03:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:06:05 +0100 From: Suzie WILKINS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: just curious? Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Mailer: WorldClient Standard 1.1 Precedence: bulk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes -----Original Message----- From: emery rogers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:59:51 -0400 Subject: VIRGIL: just curious? > I love to read and I'm a first-year student at a local community > college. > I wrote a paper for my Shakespeare class, and I'm not exactly certain > if my > understanding (of this subject) is at all accurate (my teacher didn't > address this part of my essay, and it's driving me nuts not knowing > whether > or not it's right). Can you help me? > To introduce my question: I'm amused by the vast usage of the "play > within > a play" idea inside the tragedy of Shakespeare's Hamlet. I believe > that it > supports the imbalance in the world (both inside and out). I think > that > through the Prince of Denmark, Shakespeare introduces a mirror tale > (?), > being Vergils Aeneid -- is this correct? And if so, is this following > exert > (from my paper) at all an accurate comprehension of the meaning > behind the > reference (and shakespeare's piece in general)? > "Son of Achilles, slay me, and pity not my misery. I have no will > to see > the sun's light more."(Quintus Smyrnaeus, The fall of Troy...) Upon > those > words, the wrath of young Neoptolemus crashed through the Kings most > sacred temple. The mighty fell dismembered - slew at the gate of his > own > palace. Black on black, no gold can save? (Does this sound > familiar?) > "Aeneas caused her death and lent the blade, Dido by her own hand in > dust > was laid."(Ovid,Heroides...) > Cause and effect, cause and effect (eventually creating circular > causality?); our conscience is our certainty. The battlefield present > in > the heart/mind of man, sets the dutiful Aeneas in a Dionysian > ocean.(?) > Act or be acted upon - is this where Shakespeare is guiding us in > Hamlet? > We can not live in complete moderation (this being a utopian > principle); > however we can attempt to balance between the do and don't do > avoiding the > extremes of each, which perhaps leads to our overall torment.(?) > (Granted there are a lot of holes 'cause you're only seeing a small > part of > the paper, but...) Is this at all what the authors are getting at, or > am I > way off (in other words do I need to hit the books again)? Would > greatly > appreciate any feedback. Thanks for your time! -Sherry > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). > You > can also unsubscribe at > http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Jun 01 08:22:00 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 1 Jun 2000 05:54:18 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id DAA23396; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 03:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:06:13 +0100 From: Suzie WILKINS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: just curious? Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Mailer: WorldClient Standard 1.1 Precedence: bulk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] no Suggs -----Original Message----- From: emery rogers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:59:51 -0400 Subject: VIRGIL: just curious? > I love to read and I'm a first-year student at a local community > college. > I wrote a paper for my Shakespeare class, and I'm not exactly certain > if my > understanding (of this subject) is at all accurate (my teacher didn't > address this part of my essay, and it's driving me nuts not knowing > whether > or not it's right). Can you help me? > To introduce my question: I'm amused by the vast usage of the "play > within > a play" idea inside the tragedy of Shakespeare's Hamlet. I believe > that it > supports the imbalance in the world (both inside and out). I think > that > through the Prince of Denmark, Shakespeare introduces a mirror tale > (?), > being Vergils Aeneid -- is this correct? And if so, is this following > exert > (from my paper) at all an accurate comprehension of the meaning > behind the > reference (and shakespeare's piece in general)? > "Son of Achilles, slay me, and pity not my misery. I have no will > to see > the sun's light more."(Quintus Smyrnaeus, The fall of Troy...) Upon > those > words, the wrath of young Neoptolemus crashed through the Kings most > sacred temple. The mighty fell dismembered - slew at the gate of his > own > palace. Black on black, no gold can save? (Does this sound > familiar?) > "Aeneas caused her death and lent the blade, Dido by her own hand in > dust > was laid."(Ovid,Heroides...) > Cause and effect, cause and effect (eventually creating circular > causality?); our conscience is our certainty. The battlefield present > in > the heart/mind of man, sets the dutiful Aeneas in a Dionysian > ocean.(?) > Act or be acted upon - is this where Shakespeare is guiding us in > Hamlet? > We can not live in complete moderation (this being a utopian > principle); > however we can attempt to balance between the do and don't do > avoiding the > extremes of each, which perhaps leads to our overall torment.(?) > (Granted there are a lot of holes 'cause you're only seeing a small > part of > the paper, but...) Is this at all what the authors are getting at, or > am I > way off (in other words do I need to hit the books again)? Would > greatly > appreciate any feedback. Thanks for your time! -Sherry > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). > You > can also unsubscribe at > http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Jun 01 08:22:00 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 1 Jun 2000 05:58:33 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id DAA23397; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 03:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:06:20 +0100 From: Suzie WILKINS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: just curious? Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Mailer: WorldClient Standard 1.1 Precedence: bulk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] ok Suggs -----Original Message----- From: emery rogers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:59:51 -0400 Subject: VIRGIL: just curious? > I love to read and I'm a first-year student at a local community > college. > I wrote a paper for my Shakespeare class, and I'm not exactly certain > if my > understanding (of this subject) is at all accurate (my teacher didn't > address this part of my essay, and it's driving me nuts not knowing > whether > or not it's right). Can you help me? > To introduce my question: I'm amused by the vast usage of the "play > within > a play" idea inside the tragedy of Shakespeare's Hamlet. I believe > that it > supports the imbalance in the world (both inside and out). I think > that > through the Prince of Denmark, Shakespeare introduces a mirror tale > (?), > being Vergils Aeneid -- is this correct? And if so, is this following > exert > (from my paper) at all an accurate comprehension of the meaning > behind the > reference (and shakespeare's piece in general)? > "Son of Achilles, slay me, and pity not my misery. I have no will > to see > the sun's light more."(Quintus Smyrnaeus, The fall of Troy...) Upon > those > words, the wrath of young Neoptolemus crashed through the Kings most > sacred temple. The mighty fell dismembered - slew at the gate of his > own > palace. Black on black, no gold can save? (Does this sound > familiar?) > "Aeneas caused her death and lent the blade, Dido by her own hand in > dust > was laid."(Ovid,Heroides...) > Cause and effect, cause and effect (eventually creating circular > causality?); our conscience is our certainty. The battlefield present > in > the heart/mind of man, sets the dutiful Aeneas in a Dionysian > ocean.(?) > Act or be acted upon - is this where Shakespeare is guiding us in > Hamlet? > We can not live in complete moderation (this being a utopian > principle); > however we can attempt to balance between the do and don't do > avoiding the > extremes of each, which perhaps leads to our overall torment.(?) > (Granted there are a lot of holes 'cause you're only seeing a small > part of > the paper, but...) Is this at all what the authors are getting at, or > am I > way off (in other words do I need to hit the books again)? Would > greatly > appreciate any feedback. Thanks for your time! -Sherry > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). > You > can also unsubscribe at > http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Jun 01 08:22:00 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 1 Jun 2000 05:54:16 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id DAA23394; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 03:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:06:34 +0100 From: Suzie WILKINS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: just curious? Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Mailer: WorldClient Standard 1.1 Precedence: bulk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] gaius plinius secundus was here Suggs -----Original Message----- From: emery rogers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 15:59:51 -0400 Subject: VIRGIL: just curious? > I love to read and I'm a first-year student at a local community > college. > I wrote a paper for my Shakespeare class, and I'm not exactly certain > if my > understanding (of this subject) is at all accurate (my teacher didn't > address this part of my essay, and it's driving me nuts not knowing > whether > or not it's right). Can you help me? > To introduce my question: I'm amused by the vast usage of the "play > within > a play" idea inside the tragedy of Shakespeare's Hamlet. I believe > that it > supports the imbalance in the world (both inside and out). I think > that > through the Prince of Denmark, Shakespeare introduces a mirror tale > (?), > being Vergils Aeneid -- is this correct? And if so, is this following > exert > (from my paper) at all an accurate comprehension of the meaning > behind the > reference (and shakespeare's piece in general)? > "Son of Achilles, slay me, and pity not my misery. I have no will > to see > the sun's light more."(Quintus Smyrnaeus, The fall of Troy...) Upon > those > words, the wrath of young Neoptolemus crashed through the Kings most > sacred temple. The mighty fell dismembered - slew at the gate of his > own > palace. Black on black, no gold can save? (Does this sound > familiar?) > "Aeneas caused her death and lent the blade, Dido by her own hand in > dust > was laid."(Ovid,Heroides...) > Cause and effect, cause and effect (eventually creating circular > causality?); our conscience is our certainty. The battlefield present > in > the heart/mind of man, sets the dutiful Aeneas in a Dionysian > ocean.(?) > Act or be acted upon - is this where Shakespeare is guiding us in > Hamlet? > We can not live in complete moderation (this being a utopian > principle); > however we can attempt to balance between the do and don't do > avoiding the > extremes of each, which perhaps leads to our overall torment.(?) > (Granted there are a lot of holes 'cause you're only seeing a small > part of > the paper, but...) Is this at all what the authors are getting at, or > am I > way off (in other words do I need to hit the books again)? Would > greatly > appreciate any feedback. Thanks for your time! -Sherry > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). > You > can also unsubscribe at > http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Jun 01 08:22:01 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 1 Jun 2000 06:11:41 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id DAA24239; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 03:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:11:58 +0100 From: Suzie WILKINS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: please read Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Mailer: WorldClient Standard 1.1 Precedence: bulk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] my sincere apologies for any stupid messages on the list.. my friend broke into my e-mail account, again sincere apologies, Gnaius ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Jun 02 09:21:25 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 1 Jun 2000 14:53:38 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id LAA04046; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:47:39 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: new query: In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, michael feagler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > In reading Eliot's "The Wasteland," I was confused by the Latin of > Petronius' Satiricon XLVIII selected for his dedication: > � > ��� Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ��� > ����� ��� ampulla pendere, et cum illi pueri dicerent: > ��� ��� "Sibylla, ti thelis?,"� > ��� respondebat illa: > ��� ��� "apothanim thelo." > � > My understanding is that "apothanim thelo" should read "apothanein > thelo," what I remember to be the correct form of the infinitive. > What really baffles me, however, is the phrase in ampulla pendere, > where pendere can only be the infinitive, from the third > conjugation pendo, right? No: it is from pendeo, pendere (long e), to hang, intransitive. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Jun 02 09:21:27 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 10000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:04:57 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id OAA00359; Thu, 01 Jun 2000 14:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 17:03:21 -0500 From: Rhonda Baugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Fw: Send this back, you'll see why Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00E6_01BFCBEB.4A3F9FE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host [EMAIL PROTECTED] [24.2.1.67] claimed to be mail.rdc1.il.home.com Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 8:58 PM Subject: Fwd: Send this back, you'll see why > > Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Full-name: LIL MRS89 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:57:42 EDT Subject: Fwd: Send this back, you'll see why To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part2_69.5af9619.265a96d6_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 102 Return-Path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from rly-zc03.mx.aol.com (rly-zc03.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.3]) by air-zc01.mail.aol.com (v73.12) with ESMTP; Sat, 20 May 2000 22:48:10 -0400 Received: from mail.austin.rr.com (sm1.texas.rr.com [24.93.35.54]) by rly-zc03.mx.aol.com (v71.10) with ESMTP; Sat, 20 May 2000 22:47:53 -0400 Received: from pavilion ([24.27.3.248]) by mail.austin.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35); Sat, 20 May 2000 21:49:04 -0500 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: "Teresa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Collins, Craig/Melissa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Send this back, you'll see why Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 21:47:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00E9_01BFC2A5.095C4EA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 <x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type> <META content="MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=2>A Box of gold<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > * With a secret inside<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > * that has never<BR>> > >>> > ><BR>> > >>> > * been told<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*<BR>> > >>> > > ><BR>> > >>> > * This box is priceless<BR>> > >>> > >* but as I see<BR>> > >>> > > ><BR>> > >>> > ><BR>> > >>> > >*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*<BR>> > >>> > ><BR>> > >>> > >* The treasure inside is<BR>> > >>> > * far more precious to me<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > >*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > * Today I share this<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > * treasure with thee<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > * It's the treasure of<BR>> > >>> > * friendship you've<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > * given me.<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > * If this comes back to you then you'll have a friend<BR>> > >>> > for<BR>> > >>> > life<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > but,if this<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > * becomes deleted, you are not a friend.<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > * Send this to everyone you consider a friend !!<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > @@<BR>> > >>> > (-------)<BR>> > >>> > >* +=---=+<BR>> > >>> > ><BR>> > >>> > * This is a magic frog.<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > * It will grant you one wish and only one wish,<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > * that is, if you decide to send this to<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > others.<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > * You can wish for anything.<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > * Repeat your wish until you have stopped<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > scrolling.<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > >* Make it count!!!!!!<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > STOP!!!!!!!!<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > * FOR YOUR WISH TO COME TRUE YOU HAVE TO SEND IT<BR>> > >>> > TO:<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > > > >> > > > >> >>> > * 3 PEOPLE - YOUR WISH WILL COME TRUE<BR>> > >>> > EVENTUALLY<BR>> > >>> > > > >> > > > >> >>> > 5 PEOPLE - YOUR WISH WILL COME TRUE IN 3<BR>> > >>> > MONTHS<BR>> > >>> > > > >> > > > >> >>> > 10 PEOPLE - YOUR WISH WILL COME TRUE IN 5<BR>> > >>> > WEEKS<BR>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>* 15 PEOPLE - YOUR WISH WILL COME TRUE IN 1<BR>> > >>> > WEEK<BR>> > >>> > > > >> > > > >> >>> > CAN'T WAIT A WEEK???<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > > > >> > > > >> >>> > * 22 PEOPLE - YOUR WISH WILL COME TRUE IN 1<BR>> > >>> > DAY!!!!!<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > ****************REMEMBER**************<BR>> > >>> ><BR>> > >>> > * THIS MUST BE SENT OUT THE DAY YOU READ IT FOR YOUR<BR>> > >>> > WISH TO GET GRANTED.<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Jun 02 12:16:12 2000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:55:33 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id HAA16626; Fri, 02 Jun 2000 07:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 09:46:57 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: reminder from listowner Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Apparently one or two subscribers (make that former subscribers) have mistaken the listowner's tolerance for something else. Ordinarily I don't intervene in public, and I realize that interest and time to participate in the discussion wax and wane, sometimes in sync with the academic calendar. We've been doing this for about four years now, and that's all right. But this forum is really useful only so long as it restricts itself to the topic people signed up to discuss: Virgil. So, with my profound apologies to the hundreds of civilized subscribers who don't need any reminders, let me reiterate: do not send any of the following to the Virgil mailing list: - Advertisements - Chain letters - "I know this has nothing to do with Virgil but I just HAVE to pass it on"s - Attachments - Profanity If you have a problem with this, please take it up with me in private. In the meantime, I've profited from the exchange on Aen. 6 and Ascanius, and I look forward to getting together with some of you about the Eclogues in a few weeks. Yours faithfully, David Wilson-Okamura Listowner, Mantovano ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Jun 04 08:57:56 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 3 Jun 2000 16:15:43 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id MAA25952; Sat, 03 Jun 2000 12:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 20:54:40 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Lee on the _Aeneid_ In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Randi C Eldevik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >Things have been slow lately on Mantovano--it's that time of year, I guess. >With a few weeks still before I myself go off for the summer, I thought I'd >bring up something that I find interesting. It's a nice commentary on the >_Aeneid_ by M. Owen Lee in a book devoted to opera, of all things (the >tie-in is, of course, Berlioz's opera _Les Troyens_). I'd say that Lee's >comments here do a great job of articulating, in condensed form, what >critics have been discussing for decades now: > But above all Augustus wanted an epic, an _Iliad_ if he could have it, >about his victory at Actium. An epic about Actium, in the general ancient sense of hexameter poetry, he got from from the author of the Carmen de bello Actiaco; Rabirius certainly wrote on it. It could be done without offending persons of importance by demonstrating how one by one, disgusted by Antony's increasing subservience to a foreign queen, they had put their country ahead of their friend and joined the better cause. Whether it could be done, or was expected to be done, to Iliadic proportions rather than to the length of the short epics about single campaigns that had abounded since Hellenistic times (though this last is a controversial question) might be doubted. > He wanted a poem to justify his past, of >which he was not altogether proud, *That* was the difficult part. You might overlook, or lie about, his lack of military prowess, but what do you do about the early months in which he was collaborating with Cicero and Caesar's murderers against Antony? > and to help him forge a future. > That was an epic no one wanted to write - Virgil least of all. There was also what one might call the Choerilus problem. Choerilus (and also Anaximenes, though fewer people mention him) had become notorious for writing a bad poem in honour of Alexander; and although he is laughed off as a bad poet, no-one as I recall names a poet whom Alexander ought to have taken along with him instead. One would need to be very shameless or very self-confident not to fear bringing down scorn on both Augustus and oneself with a bad poem. We might even see recusatio_ as a device, not to avoid debasing oneself by flattering the ruler, but to flatter him by presenting him as above all praise. Augustus himself seems to have been aware of the problem: Suetonius, _Divus Augustus_ 89. 3 'componi tamen aliquid de se nisi et serio et a praestantissimis offendebatur'. But that would imply that if he wanted it from anyone it would be Vergil. Statius wrote a short epic on Domitian's German War, and some adulatory poems in the _Silvae_: the Thebaid is not a substitute for a _Domitianis_, but the Achilleid presents itself as a preparation for writing one (1. 19 'magnusque tibi praeludit Achilles'). Is that a twist on the _recusatio_ theme? The problem is that whereas one might have said no to Augustus, if Domitian really wanted a multi-book epic about himself, one would no more have said no to him than to Stalin; and Statius was undoubtedly the man to provide it. > But >Augustus had ways of applying > pressure. Other poets who crossed the great man suffered: Ovid was >banished to the Black Sea and > never recalled, and Gallus, Virgil's friend and, reportedly, his equal >in poetic skill, was publicly dis- > graced and his works destroyed. Gallus took his own life. This view of Augustus putting the screws on poets has been challenged in Peter White's _Promised Verse: Poets in the Society of Augustan Rome_ (Harvard University Press), 1993. What do list-members think of that book? > So Virgil undertook to do what Augustus wanted. But he was not >ready to devote a large part of his > life to mere propaganda. Instead of a versified chronicle about >Augustus's career, he reached back > beyond history, back even further than Rome's legendary foundation, to >Homer's Trojan War, to the > mythic story that a cousin of Hector's, Aeneas, had escaped from the >captured city, taken shelter in > Carthage, come to Italy, fought to establish himself there, and >fathered the Trojan-Italian race that > would someday found Rome. > . . . Augustus . . . may, when he finally saw his epic, have been >surprised, even dismayed, to discover > that he had to read hundreds of lines before he came to even an >indirect reference to Actium. But if he > was a sensitive man (and I think he was), he sensed soon enough that >the new epic _was_ what he > had asked for. There is a famous anecdote told by Cicero and alluded to by Ovid, about Simonides' using his art of memory to identify the bodies when the roof fell in on the banqueting hall; the occasion was the ungracious response of the person he had been commissioned to praise on finding half the poem to be about the Dioskouroi. We now take it for granted that the ancient epinikion, in saying more about mythical persons than the victor himself, is implicitly putting him into the heroic world rather than the present; that is the insight demanded of Augustus, in an age when Pindar was being read and even imitated. Not impossible. > Aeneas was an emblem of himself, leading his people >from a fallen republic, to a ris- > ing empire. Dido was, on one level, Cleopatra, and Turnus was Antony. >The poem was a _symbolic_ > portrayal of his recent wars. And more than that, it spoke >symbolically of _all_ the cruel wars of > Rome's past. For Dido was also defeated Carthage, and Turnus was the >vanquished tribes of Italy. > the whole poem was a massive metaphor. It said , between the lines, >that there was goodness and > guilt on both sides in the civil wars just ended and in all of Rome's >wars before that. It said many > things, too, about the nature of God, the existence of evil, the >tragic choices involved in doing one's > duty. (Its thematic words are fate, fury, and piety.) It was, >finally concerned with absolving national and > personal guilt (read today: Vietnam and the Gulf War) The Romans indeed felt guilt about their recent past, as both Horace and Livy as well as Vergil show; as for today, not everyone who reads Vergil feels guilty about those wars, or indeed comes from a country that fought in them. I wonder whether it isn't rather that, after the mid- century, we have become rather more dubious about national saviours. (Syme's Augustus, after all, is an ancient Mussolini in more ways than one.) If I can find any current analogue to the hopes that Romans reposed in Augustus, it is the hopes that Russians, if we may believe the consistent reports, are placing in President Putin to clean up the mess left by Gorbachev and Yeltsin. And if many of 'us' find it hard to be as positive about Augustus as his poets--shall we say--have traditionally taken to be, so Westerners have more reservations about Putin than Russians at large seem to have. > and with >building a better world. And it was > mostly pessimistic about the possibilities. > The nineteenth century did not see Virgil this way, and Berlioz >ought not to be faulted if he did not try > to make his Virgilian opera an ambivalent comment on the Revolution >and the Napoleonic Wars that > had ravaged his France, killed off its best men, and changed its >vision. We ought not to be critical if he > thought the _Aeneid_ a justification of empire rather than, as many >see it now, a searching meditation > on it. Indeed not; but if 'we' see it thus and the nineteenth century did not, why the difference? What insights have 'we' that they lacked, or indeed vice versa? After all, it is not as if Berlioz were writing in the glorious days of Austerlitz and Jena; Napoleon had failed--as Aeneas and Augustus had not. (Basil Lanneau Gildersleeve, having fought for the South, stated that it was beneficial to anyone who would understand the classics to have been engaged on the losing side in a war.) > (M. Owen Lee, _A Season of Opera_, University of Toronto >Press, 2000, pp. 105-106) >Reactions? I know this is hardly new stuff; rather, it's a case (for me) >of "what oft was thought, but ne'er so well expressed." Indeed, it should be canonized as the classic statement of that view. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Jun 05 09:58:20 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 4 Jun 2000 19:30:08 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id QAA12925; Sun, 04 Jun 2000 16:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 19:40:35 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Robert T. White) Subject: VIRGIL: AP Latin Workshop (Cleveland, July) Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Everybody! [Important n.b.: This is an *Authorized* flog!] On the morning of July 24 CORE-FL will host an AP Latin workshop at Cleveland State University. The moderator will be Dr. John Sarkissian from YSU. The cost is $35; breakfast and lunch are included, along with the traditional AP materials. If you would like to attend (or have any questions) please contact me at (216) 295-4200, or at one of the many email addresses below. Thanx! Bob White (PS) Enroll and receive my material on Vampire Scansion! Robert T. White Shaker Heights HS Shaker Heights OH [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Jun 05 09:58:22 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 5 Jun 2000 07:06:55 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id DAA13430; Mon, 05 Jun 2000 03:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 10:54:37 +0100 From: Suzie WILKINS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Lee on the _Aeneid_ Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Mailer: WorldClient Standard 1.1 Precedence: bulk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Who here gets the impression that Aeneas is a major sexy sex god who is my ideal man... He is as shaggable as Chris Tarrant... Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 20:54:40 +0100 Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Lee on the _Aeneid_ > In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > Randi C Eldevik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >Things have been slow lately on Mantovano--it's that time of year, I > guess. > >With a few weeks still before I myself go off for the summer, I > thought I'd > >bring up something that I find interesting. It's a nice commentary > on the > >_Aeneid_ by M. Owen Lee in a book devoted to opera, of all things > (the > >tie-in is, of course, Berlioz's opera _Les Troyens_). I'd say that > Lee's > >comments here do a great job of articulating, in condensed form, > what > >critics have been discussing for decades now: > > But above all Augustus wanted an epic, an _Iliad_ if he could > have it, > >about his victory at Actium. > > An epic about Actium, in the general ancient sense of hexameter > poetry, > he got from from the author of the Carmen de bello Actiaco; Rabirius > certainly wrote on it. It could be done without offending persons of > importance by demonstrating how one by one, disgusted by Antony's > increasing subservience to a foreign queen, they had put their > country > ahead of their friend and joined the better cause. Whether it could > be > done, or was expected to be done, to Iliadic proportions rather than > to > the length of the short epics about single campaigns that had > abounded > since Hellenistic times (though this last is a controversial > question) > might be doubted. > > > He wanted a poem to justify his past, of > >which he was not altogether proud, > > *That* was the difficult part. You might overlook, or lie about, his > lack of military prowess, but what do you do about the early months > in > which he was collaborating with Cicero and Caesar's murderers against > Antony? > > > and to help him forge a future. > > That was an epic no one wanted to write - Virgil least of > all. > There was also what one might call the Choerilus problem. Choerilus > (and > also Anaximenes, though fewer people mention him) had become > notorious > for writing a bad poem in honour of Alexander; and although he is > laughed off as a bad poet, no-one as I recall names a poet whom > Alexander ought to have taken along with him instead. One would need > to > be very shameless or very self-confident not to fear bringing down > scorn > on both Augustus and oneself with a bad poem. We might even see > recusatio_ as a device, not to avoid debasing oneself by flattering > the > ruler, but to flatter him by presenting him as above all praise. > Augustus himself seems to have been aware of the problem: > Suetonius, _Divus Augustus_ 89. 3 'componi tamen aliquid de se nisi > et > serio et a praestantissimis offendebatur'. But that would imply that > if > he wanted it from anyone it would be Vergil. > Statius wrote a short epic on Domitian's German War, and some > adulatory poems in the _Silvae_: the Thebaid is not a substitute for > a > _Domitianis_, but the Achilleid presents itself as a preparation for > writing one (1. 19 'magnusque tibi praeludit Achilles'). Is that a > twist > on the _recusatio_ theme? The problem is that whereas one might have > said no to Augustus, if Domitian really wanted a multi-book epic > about > himself, one would no more have said no to him than to Stalin; and > Statius was undoubtedly the man to provide it. > > > But > >Augustus had ways of applying > > pressure. Other poets who crossed the great man suffered: > Ovid was > >banished to the Black Sea and > > never recalled, and Gallus, Virgil's friend and, reportedly, > his equal > >in poetic skill, was publicly dis- > > graced and his works destroyed. Gallus took his own life. > > This view of Augustus putting the screws on poets has been challenged > in > Peter White's _Promised Verse: Poets in the Society of Augustan Rome_ > (Harvard University Press), 1993. What do list-members think of that > book? > > So Virgil undertook to do what Augustus wanted. But he was > not > >ready to devote a large part of his > > life to mere propaganda. Instead of a versified chronicle > about > >Augustus's career, he reached back > > beyond history, back even further than Rome's legendary > foundation, to > >Homer's Trojan War, to the > > mythic story that a cousin of Hector's, Aeneas, had escaped > from the > >captured city, taken shelter in > > Carthage, come to Italy, fought to establish himself there, and > >fathered the Trojan-Italian race that > > would someday found Rome. > > . . . Augustus . . . may, when he finally saw his epic, have > been > >surprised, even dismayed, to discover > > that he had to read hundreds of lines before he came to even an > >indirect reference to Actium. But if he > > was a sensitive man (and I think he was), he sensed soon enough > that > >the new epic _was_ what he > > had asked for. > > There is a famous anecdote told by Cicero and alluded to by Ovid, > about > Simonides' using his art of memory to identify the bodies when the > roof > fell in on the banqueting hall; the occasion was the ungracious > response > of the person he had been commissioned to praise on finding half the > poem to be about the Dioskouroi. We now take it for granted that the > ancient epinikion, in saying more about mythical persons than the > victor > himself, is implicitly putting him into the heroic world rather than > the > present; that is the insight demanded of Augustus, in an age when > Pindar > was being read and even imitated. Not impossible. > > Aeneas was an emblem of himself, leading his people > >from a fallen republic, to a ris- > > ing empire. Dido was, on one level, Cleopatra, and Turnus was > Antony. > >The poem was a _symbolic_ > > portrayal of his recent wars. And more than that, it spoke > >symbolically of _all_ the cruel wars of > > Rome's past. For Dido was also defeated Carthage, and Turnus > was the > >vanquished tribes of Italy. > > the whole poem was a massive metaphor. It said , between the > lines, > >that there was goodness and > > guilt on both sides in the civil wars just ended and in all of > Rome's > >wars before that. It said many > > things, too, about the nature of God, the existence of evil, > the > >tragic choices involved in doing one's > > duty. (Its thematic words are fate, fury, and piety.) It was, > >finally concerned with absolving national and > > personal guilt (read today: Vietnam and the Gulf War) > The Romans indeed felt guilt about their recent past, as both Horace > and > Livy as well as Vergil show; as for today, not everyone who reads > Vergil > feels guilty about those wars, or indeed comes from a country that > fought in them. I wonder whether it isn't rather that, after the mid- > century, we have become rather more dubious about national saviours. > (Syme's Augustus, after all, is an ancient Mussolini in more ways > than > one.) If I can find any current analogue to the hopes that Romans > reposed in Augustus, it is the hopes that Russians, if we may believe > the consistent reports, are placing in President Putin to clean up > the > mess left by Gorbachev and Yeltsin. And if many of 'us' find it hard > to > be as positive about Augustus as his poets--shall we say--have > traditionally taken to be, so Westerners have more reservations about > Putin than Russians at large seem to have. > > and with > >building a better world. And it was > > mostly pessimistic about the possibilities. > > The nineteenth century did not see Virgil this way, and > Berlioz > >ought not to be faulted if he did not try > > to make his Virgilian opera an ambivalent comment on the > Revolution > >and the Napoleonic Wars that > > had ravaged his France, killed off its best men, and changed > its > >vision. We ought not to be critical if he > > thought the _Aeneid_ a justification of empire rather than, as > many > >see it now, a searching meditation > > on it. > > Indeed not; but if 'we' see it thus and the nineteenth century did > not, > why the difference? What insights have 'we' that they lacked, or > indeed > vice versa? After all, it is not as if Berlioz were writing in the > glorious days of Austerlitz and Jena; Napoleon had failed--as Aeneas > and > Augustus had not. (Basil Lanneau Gildersleeve, having fought for the > South, stated that it was beneficial to anyone who would understand > the > classics to have been engaged on the losing side in a war.) > > > (M. Owen Lee, _A Season of Opera_, University of Toronto > >Press, 2000, pp. 105-106) > >Reactions? I know this is hardly new stuff; rather, it's a case > (for me) > >of "what oft was thought, but ne'er so well expressed." > Indeed, it should be canonized as the classic statement of that view. > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > _*_* > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens > 67 St Bernard's Road usque > adeone > Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat > alter? > OX2 6EJ > > tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 > 512237 > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] > (work) > > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > _*_* > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). > You > can also unsubscribe at > http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Jun 05 12:18:31 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:07:38 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id HAA12586; Mon, 05 Jun 2000 07:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 09:44:34 -0500 From: Randi C Eldevik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Lee on the _Aeneid_ Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.1a August 17, 1999 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on osu-ns05/Okstate(Release 5.0.3 |March 21, 2000) at 06/05/2000 09:44:35 AM Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] So. Some positive comments from Hans Zimmermann and Leofranc Holford-Strevens--that's nice--and then some frivolity that I won't even dignify with an acknowledgement. Das ist alles? Well, I'm leaving soon for the summer anyway. Till autumn, then-- Randi Eldevik Oklahoma State University ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Jun 06 09:49:11 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 6 Jun 2000 02:18:01 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id XAA23977; Mon, 05 Jun 2000 23:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:22:22 +1000 From: Betty Gabriel-Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host [203.62.171.1] claimed to be unihigh.vic.edu.au Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] So may you all have a wonderful summer. Here in Melbourne we are settling down to the winter of a year that moves inexorably on, from Virgil to Juvenal and hence to Tacitus. Still, come December... Thank you all for the entertainment assistance and education I get from the various contributors. Betty Gabriel-Jones University High School Melbourne, Australia ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Jun 07 13:43:49 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 6 Jun 2000 19:15:56 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id PAA21731; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 15:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 18:57:05 -0400 (EDT) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VIRGIL: Virgil's sexuality Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 104 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello. I am a fourth year Latin student who recently had to do a report on Virgil. I turned to Virgil.Org for some information. I used a lot of the biography of Aelius Donatus which I found. In it, he notes several times Virgil's sexuality, specifically, that he took most of his pleasure from little boys, especially Alexandrus and another one whose name escapes me at the moment. I took this to mean he was somewhat of a pediphile, a notion which was further made to seem right when later in the biography, there is an incident mentioned about Virgil falling in love with the Alexandrus fellow, who was a slave, and recieving him as a gift from Maceanas. When I presented this information in my report, I was met with incredulity. My latin teacher, who had tought latin for 35 years, said she had never heard the slightest reffernce to Virgil in such a sense. I would appreciate any additional information anyone has in this heated debate. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Jun 07 13:43:51 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 6 Jun 2000 19:53:28 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id QAA28293; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 00:48:11 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Virgil's sexuality In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes > Hello. I am a fourth year Latin student who recently had to do a report >on Virgil. I turned to Virgil.Org for some information. I used a lot of the >biography of Aelius Donatus which I found. In it, he notes several times >Virgil's sexuality, specifically, that he took most of his pleasure from >little boys, especially Alexandrus and another one whose name escapes me at >the moment. I took this to mean he was somewhat of a pediphile, a notion >which was further made to seem right when later in the biography, there is an >incident mentioned about Virgil falling in love with the Alexandrus fellow, >who was a slave, and recieving him as a gift from Maceanas. When I presented >this information in my report, I was met with incredulity. My latin teacher, >who had tought latin for 35 years, said she had never heard the slightest >reffernce to Virgil in such a sense. I would appreciate any additional >information anyone has in this heated debate. Two points: (1) There was nothing wrong in it for a Roman provided the other party was not a free-born Roman citizen. (2) The ancient lives of the poets are full of the wildest fiction, usually derived from their poems by the crudest equation of content with the author's life. Hence no reason to be shocked, but no reason to believe it. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Jun 07 13:43:53 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:13:44 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id RAA01254; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 17:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 20:16:15 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Robert T. White) Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Virgil's sexuality Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Losalumnos scripsit: > Hello. I am a fourth year Latin student who recently had to do a report >on Virgil. I turned to Virgil.Org for some information. I used a lot of the >biography of Aelius Donatus which I found. In it, he notes several times >Virgil's sexuality, specifically, that he took most of his pleasure from >little boys, especially Alexandrus and another one whose name escapes me at >the moment. I took this to mean he was somewhat of a pediphile, a notion >which was further made to seem right when later in the biography, there is an >incident mentioned about Virgil falling in love with the Alexandrus fellow, >who was a slave, and recieving him as a gift from Maceanas. When I presented >this information in my report, I was met with incredulity. My latin teacher, >who had tought latin for 35 years, said she had never heard the slightest >reffernce to Virgil in such a sense. I would appreciate any additional >information anyone has in this heated debate. Do you mean that what is in dispute is that V. was a pedophile, or that he wasn't asexual? You could ask your teacher how the Nisus and Euryalus episode on Book IX compares to any of the one-sided love stuff in Book IV. I will bet, though, that she is not that familiar with Book IX. It should be quite a revelation! Bob White Robert T. White Shaker Heights HS Shaker Heights OH [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Jun 09 13:33:39 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:25:54 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id JAA19429; Fri, 09 Jun 2000 09:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 11:16:36 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Iarbas Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm finishing up an article on Virgilian models of colonization, and it strikes me as odd that I haven't found much discussion of Iarbas, the African prince who sells Dido the land on which she builds. Am I missing something? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Jun 09 17:19:44 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:18:42 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id MAA21321; Fri, 09 Jun 2000 12:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 14:04:35 -0500 From: Paul Hackbart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: RE: VIRGIL SEXUALITY, ETC. Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Organization: Hackbarts: Fine Art & Restoration MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; U) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------727E064168D3008E8AD5803F" Precedence: bulk X-Accept-Language: en References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> <blockquote TYPE=CITE><b>Hello,</b></blockquote> <b> I am new to the list, and truthfully, to Latin and the great epics. I have developed an absolute passion for them and their writers. I truly enjoy the unbelievable learning tools the internet can provide and the ability to meet others as "crazy" as yourself around the world is truly remarkable...</b> <br><b> I am leaving to Italy to study at The Academy of Art at the month's end. Although not my first time, I will be taking a great amount of time to study in Rome, Firenze, and Venice. At any rate...........</b> <br><b> Regarding Randi's comments below, I must say, "lighten up a little" if you are referring to the girl who mentioned him as a "hunk". I think that was cute and delightful as long as the string doesn't last a week. However, if you are referring to some/most of the "sexuality"" thread, I agree....</b> <br><b> To the 4 year Latin student, a quick reality check. Academia has a tendency to sap that original creativity or fire within you. At times one loses sight why we originally chose to take that path, pursuit, etc. Try not to....In short, I know of writer's and painter's with such brilliant minds, but I listen to what they say and realized how saturated in academia they have become. They have lost their focus, and may never get it back.</b> <br><b> These transcriptions of the great epics are taken from papyrus scrolls from 2k yrs. ago. People, and times, were different then. Today we are all so sexually repressed, and society has buried various seeds in our minds where a man or woman cannot even take a photo of their child out of diapers, nudity is considered bad, etc. I am not some hippy :) by any means, yet you need to remember the times where men with great minds were so admired for their thoughts and personalities that they were welcomed into homes without worry for work or food to pursue those thoughts.</b> <br><b> Sure pedophilia, homosexuality existed then. To try and decipher this from papyrus scrolls of long ago is pointless and trite. We are talking of men with minds and times that no longer exist and havent for a very, very long time. I find beauty in many things. I find beauty in men, but I am not a homosexual. We are talking about men who were trying to understand how God thought (for lack of a better term). Love meant a great deal more to them than the silliness we are burdened with in today's world. IF you better understand the times, you will better understand the meanings.....</b> <br><b> I am not coming down on anyone by any means..Simply my .02.</b> <br><b>Looking forward to the group again upon my return, if I return ;-)</b> <br><b>Paul Hackbart</b> <br><b>Plano, TX</b> <br><b></b> <br> <br> <blockquote TYPE=CITE>From: "Randi C Eldevik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <br>Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 09:44:34 -0500 <br>Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Lee on the _Aeneid_ <p>So. Some positive comments from Hans Zimmermann and Leofranc <br>Holford-Strevens--that's nice--and then some frivolity that I won't even <br>dignify with an acknowledgement. Das ist alles? Well, I'm leaving soon <br>for the summer anyway. <br>Till autumn, then-- <br>Randi Eldevik <br>Oklahoma State University <br>--------------------------------------------- <br>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <br>Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:57:05 EDT <br>Subject: Virgil's sexuality <p> Hello. I am a fourth year Latin student who recently had to do a report <br>on Virgil. I turned to Virgil.Org for some information. I used a lot of the <br>biography of Aelius Donatus which I found. In it, he notes several times <br>Virgil's sexuality, specifically, that he took most of his pleasure from <br>little boys, especially Alexandrus and another one whose name escapes me at <br>the moment. I took this to mean he was somewhat of a pediphile, a notion <br>which was further made to seem right when later in the biography, there is an <br>incident mentioned about Virgil falling in love with the Alexandrus fellow, <br>who was a slave, and recieving him as a gift from Maceanas. When I presented <br>this information in my report, I was met with incredulity. My latin teacher, <br>who had tought latin for 35 years, said she had never heard the slightest <br>reffernce to Virgil in such a sense. I would appreciate any additional <br>information anyone has in this heated debate. <br> </blockquote> </html> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Jun 12 09:48:44 2000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 12 Jun 2000 00:06:14 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id VAA23545; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 21:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 23:16:13 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Appendix Vergiliana online Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] 1. Last month someone I know only as Dragos informed me that there was now a Latin text for the Appendix Vergiliana online at David Camden's Forum Romanum site: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6946/literature/index.html With Mr. Camden's permission, I have incorporated this text into the Virgil search engine at http://virgil.org/texts/ Unfortunately, I have not been able to identify the edition from which this text was scanned or transcribed, so use with caution. 2. A few years ago I scanned in a partial translation of the Appendix by Joseph Mooney (1916): http://virgil.org/appendix/ This was one of the original components of Virgil.org, and I hope it's been helpful to someone. But the Mooney translation is not very readable. I am would like, therefore, to replace it with something that is both more complete and more readable, namely, the Loeb translation (which is now in the public domain). Does anyone know if this has been digitized yet? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://geoffreychaucer.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Chaucer: An Annotated Guide to Online Resources ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Jun 12 09:48:43 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 12 Jun 2000 03:28:45 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id AAA13346; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 00:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:30:18 +0200 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Zimmermann) Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Appendix Vergiliana online Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.3 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] nice, to see some new paginas with Vergilius. but why doesn't this virgil-org-machine show something of the Vergil Mosaik, also not by the keyword "Mosaiken"? And why does it show neither the 4. eclogue ("Weltenjahr" in her German title) by the keyword "Weltenjahr" nor the pagina "annus magnus", which is linked to that carmen-edition (searched by "searching sites")? na, die Seiten der Listenleser sollten doch in solchen Verzeichnisse vertreten sein! grusz, hansz David Wilson-Okamura schrieb: ... ... into the Virgil > search engine at > > http://virgil.org/texts/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Jun 13 09:07:52 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 13 Jun 2000 06:08:05 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id DAA02883; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 03:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:51:46 +0100 From: Suzie WILKINS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Re: Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Mailer: WorldClient Standard 1.1 Precedence: bulk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Suggs -----Original Message----- From: Betty Gabriel-Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:22:22 +1000 Subject: > > > So may you all have a wonderful summer. Here in Melbourne we are > settling > down to the winter of a year that moves inexorably on, from Virgil to > Juvenal and hence to Tacitus. Still, come December... > > Thank you all for the entertainment assistance and education I get > from > the various contributors. > > Betty Gabriel-Jones > University High School > Melbourne, Australia > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). > You > can also unsubscribe at > http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Jun 13 10:38:40 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:37:09 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id HAA12095; Tue, 13 Jun 2000 07:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:33:18 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Appendix Vergiliana online In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 09:30 AM 6/12/00 +0200, Hans Zimmermann wrote: >nice, to see some new paginas with Vergilius. but why doesn't this >virgil-org-machine show something of the Vergil Mosaik, also not by the keyword >"Mosaiken"? And why does it show neither the 4. eclogue ("Weltenjahr" in her >German title) by the keyword "Weltenjahr" nor the pagina "annus magnus", which >is linked to that carmen-edition (searched by "searching sites")? > >na, die Seiten der Listenleser sollten doch in solchen Verzeichnisse vertreten >sein! Unfortunately, the "search site" link at virgil.org <http://virgil.org/search/> does not search every Virgil site on the web: just the pages at virgil.org. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Jun 16 09:43:05 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:24:49 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id GAA19035; Fri, 16 Jun 2000 06:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 06:00:00 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: summer Eclogues study (rerun!) Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Unverified) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm starting to get questions on this from people who joined the mailing list in the last week, so I guess I'll rerun the notice: S U M M E R E C L O G U E S S T U D Y Starting Monday, June 19, Virgil.org is going to sponsor a five-week study of Virgil's first five eclogues. Interested? Details follow in FAQ format. What kind of people will be in the study? I'm hoping that we'll get a mix of students, professional scholars, and amateurs. The only prerequisite: you must be able to read, or at least puzzle out with the aid of a translation, the Latin text. Why just the first five eclogues? Wouldn't it be better to study the book as a whole? Ideally, we'd take ten weeks and do the whole book in one summer, with an extra week or two at the end to talk about the relation of parts to whole. I've learned, however, that most online studies fizzle out after five or six weeks, whether you're finished with the text or not. Obviously I'd like to come back to the rest of the eclogues and finish the book, but we can talk about that when we finish the first five poems. When you say "study," what do you mean? The goal of this study is to get close to the poems. The first stage in getting close to any poem is to work through it word by word, translating if necessary. If this were a college classroom, we'd probably take turns translating, pausing to discuss vexed points of interpretation as we went. Needless to say, email doesn't work like that. (Chat could, but then we'd have to settle on a time when everyone could log on. Hah!) Instead, we're going to start off each week's discussion with the assumption that everyone has already gone through the poem for that week, looked up the unfamiliar words, and puzzled out the grammar and syntax. This doesn't mean you can't ask a grammar question now and then, it just means that grammar and translation won't be the focus of our discussion. What's your take on the Eclogues? I don't know yet. Some participants will probably come to the discussion with well-formed opinions; I hope they'll share them. But again, the goal of this study is to get closer to the poems, not to promulgate a particular interpretation. Can I get college credit for participating? No. If need be, I'll probably prime the pump with some questions to get us started, but there's no teacher and no course credit. On the other hand, there aren't any papers or exams, either. How do I join? First, DON'T reply to this message. Unlike Mantovano, which runs on a Majordomo server at Virgil.org, the Eclogues study will use eGroups <http://www.egroups.com>, which is designed for group efforts like this one. Signing up with eGroups (if you're not already a member) is easy easy and free. Start by pointing your web browser here: http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/eclogues If you're not already an eGroups member, you'll need to register. Look for the "Click here to register for FREE link" on the right side of the page and click on it. You'll be asked for your email address, your gender, a date of birth, and your zip/postal code. You will also be asked to choose a password. You will NOT be asked for personal information like your name, phone number, or street address, and eGroups promises not to give away or sell your information without your consent. Does it cost anything? No. eGroups is free, and if you don't have a text of the Eclogues you can download one for free from the Files section and print it out. If you prefer a book to a printout, there are also two or three paperback editions with the Latin text and an English translation on facing pages. If your library doesn't have them (or if you like to mark up the text you're reading), you can buy them online David Ferry's translation (with Latin on facing pages). This is brand new, so I haven't seen it yet, but his translation of Horace has been justly praised. In North America, from Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0374526966/hesperiaA/ In the UK, from Amazon.co.uk http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0374526966/820 Guy Lee's translation (with Latin on facing pages). This is the revised edition of the Penguin translation. In North America, from Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=014044419X/hesperiaA/ In the UK, from Amazon.co.uk http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/014044419X/820 Recommended books I strongly recommend that you borrow or buy a commentary on the Eclogues. The one that I use most often is by Wendell Clausen (Oxford University Press, 1995). If your bookstore or library doesn't have it, you can order it here: In North America, from Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0198150350/hesperiaA/ In the UK, from Amazon.co.uk http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0198150350/820 Also very good is the text and commentary by Robert Coleman (Cambridge University Press, 1977): In North America, from Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0521291070/hesperiaA/ In the UK, from Amazon.co.uk http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521291070/820 Still have questions? Send an email to the moderator, David Wilson-Okamura (Macalester College), at [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Jun 25 13:04:48 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:28:39 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id FAA15980; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 05:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 05:46:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Wolfi Kofler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: - two voices - Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed Precedence: bulk X-Originating-IP: [138.232.124.38] X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host f97.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.97] claimed to be hotmail.com Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] hello everybody, for my dissertatio need some information about the so-called Harvard School i.e. the proponents of the two-voices-theory such as Parry, Johnson, Putnam ecc. Are they or their theories in any way connected to the ideals of the 68-generation, the flower-power-movement, the opposition to the vietnam war etc.? does their exist any useful secondary literature on the subject? many thanks, wolfgang ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Jun 25 13:04:56 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:31:50 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id HAA00684; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 07:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 16:47:13 +0200 From: Robert Dyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: - two voices - Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [fr]C-NSCPCD (Win98; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Accept-Language: en-US,fr,de,el,ru References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Wolfgang, As someone who taught Vergil during the 60s in the United States, I can assure you that the notion of an undercutting of Augustus's authority appealed greatly to young professors and students. Everyone has since developed sophisticated views of ambivalence, even a certain didacticism, in the same mode of discourse as that perhaps invented by Cicero for his dialogs. Vergil presents arguments for (at least) two different readings of Aeneas. Both are persuasively presented by an alumnus of rhetorical teaching (what did it mean to be an unsuccessful student?). And in the last moment of the epic we are posed the question, Which Aeneas? Aeneas the Augustus of piety and duty, who steps suddenly out of character when faced by a serious political question of leaving room for Turnus in his new world? Or Aeneas the cynical politician manipulating others by self-aggrandising stories to Dido (Augustus's Monumentum Ancyranum) and exploiting others for his own advantage, who, now that he has won, can reveal his true character? I think Vergil wants us to go back and read the whole poem again, trying to figure out which he "intended." And in the process to discover what our own character is. Teaching bright American prep school students for 14 years Vergil's Aeneid in its entirety over two years, I came to watch the character of my students through their choices of interpretation: those who sided with me in the 60s and saw Aeneas as a vehicle for undermining "the authorities"; those who agreed with my first Vergil teacher, a man called Blaiklock, who saw him as the perfect example of a man loyal to God, his country and the establishment. It helped me to write references for them, that I saw this aspect of their characters through their choices. To understand later Cicero, Vergil and the Ciceronian anti-Platonic dialectic tradition, it is important to remember that the writer of this type of discourse is a brilliant lawyer, arguing both sides of a question that may be has no TRUE answer and leaving it to the jury of readers to make their personal decisions. I assume the discourse was invented before Cicero somewhere in the Academy, but we have no evidence for that, and Cicero's brilliance in logical enthymeme and division must have made him its most brilliant exponent. The influence of Cicero, the man who left his name at the harbour of Caieta (see Aeneid, Book 7, opening lines), where he was assassinated, is subtly omnipresent in the Aeneid. Rob Dyer Paris, France ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Jun 25 16:51:38 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:45:53 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id MAA07212; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 12:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:54:42 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: - two voices - In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 05:46 AM 6/25/00 -0700, you wrote: >hello everybody, for my dissertatio need some information about the >so-called Harvard School i.e. the proponents of the two-voices-theory such >as Parry, Johnson, Putnam ecc. Are they or their theories in any way >connected to the ideals of the 68-generation, the flower-power-movement, the >opposition to the vietnam war etc.? does their exist any useful secondary >literature on the subject? many thanks, wolfgang 1. Have a look at S. J. Harrison's introduction to _Oxford Readings on Vergil's Aeneid_ (1990); Harrison offers a brief history of Virgil scholarship in this century up to, say, the mid-1980s. 2. On the cultural milieu of the Harvard School, see W. Clausen's short piece on this subject in N. Horsfall (ed), _Companion to the Study of Virgil_ (1995). Unlike Harrison's intro, this essay is essential reading on this topic. 3. An anecdote from my dissertation defense: Ralph Johnson (who is sometimes credited with having coined the term "Harvard school") was on my dissertation committee, and at one point in the defense someone asked about the pessimistic tendency in contemporary Virgil criticism. Since I'm not very pessimistic myself, I asked Johnson to field the question; among other things, he said that his own reading of the poem (insofar as it came out of personal experience at all) had much more to do with growing up in Eisenhower America (in the 1950s) than it did with anything that happened in Vietnam. My own take on this: I think Adam Perry's original formulation, "two voices," is a lot more useful than terms like "pessimistic school" and "Harvard school." You don't have to be a pessimist to acknowledge that the Aeneid isn't all trumpets and eagles. Thing of it is, readers of Virgil have been acknowledging the darker notes in Virgil's mindsong for a long time. (We talked about this a little bit earlier this year, in our discussion of the "melancholy" Virgil in nineteenth-century criticism.) I also think it's helpful to remember that the title for Perry's famous essay comes from a poem by Tennyson, in which two voices, the voice of despair and the voice of faith, contend for supremacy in the mind of a young Victorian. (Cf. the dialogue between the poet Tityrus and the displaced farmer Meliboeus in Eclogue 1.) This is not to say that there's really nothing new in Virgil criticism: to my knowledge, the "melancholy" school (I'm making this term up, by the way) never suggested that there was anything _subversive_ in the Aeneid, much less anti-Augustan. Having said that, I'm not sure that's what the pessimists are saying, either. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Jun 26 08:56:00 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:05:32 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id OAA21172; Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:13:55 +0100 From: Robin Hartley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: RE: - two voices - Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01BFDEF2.A722F080" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type> <META content="MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This is mainly adressed to Robert Dyer, but also anyone who has a view on this.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>How could Aeneas be used as a vehicle to undermine the authorities?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I apologise for my ignorance - I have only studied book II of the Aenied so far. In book two, Aeneas shows weakness to stick to his purpose (eg he keeps on forgetting about his duty to protect his father, son, and the gods, and rushes off to kill himself in the fighting). </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Various people remind him of his duty, but he quickly forgets this advice. In the end however, he regains his sense of purpose, and he escapes the city, carrying his father, with the penates, and his son and his people following behind him. It seems to me that he goes through a steep learning curve to improve himself, and in the end shows himself to have overcome the instinct to hurl himself into selfish, useless fighting and exhibits a great show of commitment and duty in the most terrible circumstances.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So am I missing something in this book? Or is Virgil trying to break down a view of perfect leaders, and replace it with one of leaders who are weakminded and have to constantly forced back on track? This point seems slightly unlikely, because in the end he acts as a strong leader, who conquers his anger, and is devoted to his people. This book merely underlines the terrible sacrifices he has to make and the trauma he suffers. Because of his devotion he does not even have the chance to escaspe the misery by getting himself killed in the fighting.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So, Rob, or anyone else, I would appreciate you filling out your statements a little about this.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Rob Hartley,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Leeds, England</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Jun 26 08:56:02 2000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 26 Jun 2000 03:15:22 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id AAA20455; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 00:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:26:13 +0200 From: Robert Dyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: RE: - two voices - Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [fr]C-NSCPCD (Win98; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Accept-Language: en-US,fr,de,el,ru References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Rob/Robin, There are two chief concerns about Aeneas's pietas, and that is the centre of this problem. He tells Dido (especially in Book II) just how dutiful he is. He was told by Hector's ghost in a dream that his chief responsibility was to save his family. Now do you believe in following advice in dreams? The character of Aeneas in mythology is a hero who always obeyed omens and visions and was always right. Perhaps the ancients believed more than we do in dreams and visions? Now you should read at least an outline of Cicero's dialog De divinatione. There is an excellent synopsis by Paul MacKendrick in The Philosophical Books of Cicero (1989). Cicero mentions Aeneas there. He also points out that omens and unverifiable visions (such as Aeneas and the ghost) are at least useful political arguments that can be used by cynical politicians to convince the ignorant. I believe Vergil has those passages in mind. He is going to tell Creusa to follow him at a little distance. When he discovers she has disappeared, he becomes frantic (or so he tells Dido) but is finally reassured by HER ghost (and oh! what a great guy her ghost makes him out to be, and what a destiny) that he can go forward with her love and find another lucky wife. (Aha! thinks Dido, or so we are left to guess.) The gods have been with him always when he runs away from burning Troy and carelessly (but opportunely) loses his wife. BUT when you reach Book IV Dido is going to find that the gods are going to send Mercury and tell him to run away from her too. Aeneas follows DESTINY. (And perhaps he really does. As the story goes, without him Rome might never have come into being. It would be a terrible mistake to think Vergil wrote the whole Aeneid to undercut Aeneas and Augustus. He does not. That was my point before.) Augustus also looked to DESTINY, THE FUTURE OF ROME and his own self-interest in the episode of Cornelius Gallus. Try to find out a little about Gallus. He appears in two eclogues of Vergil, and may have in a censored end to the Georgics. Augustus trusted him to be the general who turned Egypt into a Roman province, but, when his charisma and vanity got out of hand, Gallus discovered it was wiser to commit suicide. This story, many of us believe, radically changed Vergil's attitude to Augustus's pietas during the course of writing the Aeneid. Augustus sponsored an inscription praising his own qualities, but especially his pietas. We call it today the Monumentum Ancyranum. You should read it and see what you think. Have fun. Reading the Aeneid and deciding what you think about these questions is a great lesson about reading literature. Remember it is more important to form your own opinion that to believe what the "experts" tell you. Listen but don't believe! I agree completely with what you say, and when I am reading the passage when he blindly and foolishly rushes into battle I agree with you. But then I say, Woops! Perhaps he is only trying to make himself sound sensible in later escaping, by pointing out how mad he was before. That is what we mean by saying you can often take it two ways, or perhaps: first this way, then that way - much like the feelings you have watching a play. Rob Dyer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Jun 27 10:07:38 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:24:34 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id PAA24164; Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:56:40 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: - two voices - In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >2. On the cultural milieu of the Harvard School, see W. Clausen's short >piece on this subject in N. Horsfall (ed), _Companion to the Study of >Virgil_ (1995). Unlike Harrison's intro, this essay is essential reading on >this topic. > >3. An anecdote from my dissertation defense: Ralph Johnson (who is >sometimes credited with having coined the term "Harvard school") was on my >dissertation committee, and at one point in the defense someone asked about >the pessimistic tendency in contemporary Virgil criticism. Since I'm not >very pessimistic myself, I asked Johnson to field the question; among other >things, he said that his own reading of the poem (insofar as it came out of >personal experience at all) had much more to do with growing up in >Eisenhower America (in the 1950s) than it did with anything that happened >in Vietnam. > Cf. Clausen in Horsfall, p. 313. 'The mild-minded pessimism of the Harvard school--the so-called Harvard school--reflects the mood of the fifties: it had little or nothing to do with the dissent and anguish of the sixties . . .'. This seems well enough established by chronology: Clausen cites three central works by other representatives of this school, one from 1953, one from 1963, and one from 1965, together with his own of 1964, 'written fifteen years earlier, in 1949'. So, that is one known to have been written under Truman, another presumably so, even though published under Eisenhower, a third under Kennedy, and a fourth under Kennedy or the first months of Johnson; even 1965 is rather early for a book to have been *written* against the background of anti- Vietnam-War upheavals, however it might have been *received*. Could non-Americans be told what it was about the Truman, Eisenhower, and Kennedy years that might encourage such a reading? Fear of nuclear extermination, fear of a Communist victory in the Cold War, fear of the HUAC and McCarthy? The step from those to a 'mild-minded pessimism' (emphasis on the adjective) that read the _Aeneid_ in a less cheer-leading fashion may seem obvious to an American; it needs explaining to outsiders. A British critic, affected by the loss of empire, might have been expected to come up with something like it, but in the event it was an American invention. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Jun 27 10:07:46 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:04:33 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id FAA04969; Tue, 27 Jun 2000 05:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:54:10 -0500 From: Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: - two voices - In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp.wesleyan.edu [129.133.1.61] claimed to be mail.wesleyan.edu Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Martindale, Charles, Redeeming the Text: Latin poetry and the Hermeneutics of Reception (Cambridge 1993) has a discussion of Parry. In general, the European obsession with the Parry article has always seemed odd to me. It has some nice strengths, but also some weaknesses, and an awful lot of stuff has been written since then. Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies & Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Jun 28 13:45:42 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:11:58 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id JAA26220; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:43:26 +0100 From: James Butrica <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: RE: - two voices - In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Robert Dyer wrote, inter alia: >Augustus also looked to DESTINY, THE FUTURE OF ROME and his own >self-interest in the episode of Cornelius Gallus. Try to find out a >little about Gallus. Ironically, this is quite a challenge. He appears in two eclogues of Vergil, and may have >in a censored end to the Georgics. "Censored" may be misleading; "self-censored" would be better, but is "censorship" the right concept here, even if there is any reason to trust Servius' story? Dead patrons aren't much use to poets. Augustus trusted him to be the >general who turned Egypt into a Roman province, but, when his charisma >and vanity got out of hand, Gallus discovered it was wiser to commit >suicide. This story, many of us believe, radically changed Vergil's >attitude to Augustus's pietas during the course of writing the Aeneid. But it is only belief, after all, based (if on anything at all) on the dubious authority of Servius' story that the end of the Georgics was originally in praise of Gallus; the details of Gallus' end are not related in a clear and consistent manner in our sources, and it is unfair to discuss his fate without considering Augustus' obvious sensitivity about Egypt as a possible base of operations by some future challenger. Somehow Propertius, another poet enjoying the patronage of Maecenas, had no difficulty mentioning Gallus after his suicide (2.34.91f.). The "dark" reading needs stronger justification than this. James Lawrence Peter Butrica Department of Classics Memorial University St. John's, Newfoundland A1C 5S7 (709) 737-7914 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Jun 28 13:45:36 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 28 Jun 2000 11:52:11 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA17220; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 08:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 10:22:40 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Virgil's sexuality In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] I've been wanting to pick up this thread for a few weeks, but just haven't had a good enough excuse to put my thoughts together. Over on the Eclogues study, however, we've been talking about Virgil's second eclogue, which is the love song of a male shepherd for a houseboy. A few excerpts from that conversation, interspersed with my loquacious commentary--to which I naturally hope someone will object: At 04:33 PM 6/27/00 -0500, Tom Bishop wrote: >On concealing/revealing, a relevant footnote: my old schools copy of the >Eclogues, published 1915 and bought second hand, has a single pencil mark >carefully ruled straight down the middle of the page through the whole of >Eclogue 2, and ONLY through Eclogue 2. Erasmus had the same problem. On the one hand, the Eclogues were a standard school text in the renaissance. On the other hand, the second poem in the collection obviously describes a forbidden form of love. Erasmus's advice to teachers: overwhelm the kids with historical and grammatical information, talk about the barriers to friendship between Corydon and Alexis, and hope the kids don't notice. The other solution (suggested by "Donatus auctus," the expanded version of the Donatus vita that started circulating in the fourteenth century) was to insist on the "Platonic" aspect of such relationships. According to Aelius Donatus (who is usually thought to be working from a lost life by Suetonius), Virgil was sparing of food and wine. With regard to pleasure, he was partial to boys. <But good men have thought that he loved boys as Socrates loved Alcibiades, and Plato his sweetheart.> He loved Cebes and Alexandrus most of all. Alexandrus was a gift to him from Asinius Pollio; the second poem of his Bucolics refers to him as "Alexis." Nor was the other one unlearned; in fact, Cebes was a poet as well. It is also circulated that he lived together with Plotia Hieria. But Asconius Pedianus maintains that she herself made a habit out of telling stories about the older man; indeed, that although Varius invited him to be his companion, he refused obstinately. For the rest, all are thoroughly agreed that his life was upright, both in word and thought, with the result that he was commonly known as the "Virgin of Naples." The sentence in angle brackets <> is interpolated from the 14th century version of the text I just mentioned. This doesn't mean the rest of it is true, however. Spenserians, though, will recognize the interpolated bit as the source of E.K.'s gloss on the "Januarie" eclogue, which deals with the same problem: In thys place seemeth to be some sauour of disorderly loue, which the learned call paederastice: but it is gathered beside this meaning. For who that hath red Plato his dialogue called Alcybiades, Xenophon and Maximus Tyrius of Socrates opinions, may easily perceiue, that such loue is much to be alowed and liked of, specially so meant, as Socrates vsed it: who sayth, that in deede he loued Alcybiades extremely, yet not Alcybiades person, but hys soule, which is Alcybiades owne selfe. And so is paederastice much to be praeferred before gynerastice, that is the loue which enflameth men with lust toward woman kind.... So, in fact, what looks like a forbidden love is actually purer than "straight" love! Most of this is probably nonsense, of course: Virgil says up front that Corydon "was hot" (ardebat) for Alexis, and with a passion that deprived him of reason; this is "dementia" (69), not platonic love so-called. Nor should this surprise us. As Melinda Weinstein points out: > Beautiful, yet cruel young men are >central to Theocritus's homoerotic poetry. But I don't think it would have >occurred to Vergil at this time to feel shame. The question of shame is a tricky one, I think. On the one hand, lots of people did it, in poetry and in real life. On the other hand, Romans didn't do it with impunity. Augustus did it, according to Suetonius, but he didn't advertise the fact on the _Res gestae_, either! Julius Caesar may, or may not, have done it with King Nicomedes, but the accusation dogged him for decades, "a deep and lasting reproach, which laid him open to insults from every quarter" (Suetonius, "Life of the Divine Julius," 49). Juvenal's satires on Roman homosexuality (1.2, 3.9) are relatively late; it seems relevant, however, that they contrast contemporary laxness in this area with traditional Roman morality. What does all this have to do with Ecl. 2? Merely that the casual bisexuality of the poem (I am thinking here of the reference to Amaryllis in 14-15) strikes me as somewhat studied. Not that Virgil and his crowd were especially anxious about this sort of thing, but that the complete exclusion of moral considerations is an aspect of the pastoral fantasy, comparable to the exclusion of hardship from Tityrus's vision of the world in the previous poem. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Jun 28 13:45:48 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:46:50 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id JAA00449; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:31:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Wolfi Kofler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: - two voices - Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk X-Originating-IP: [138.232.1.228] X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host f171.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.171] claimed to be hotmail.com Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Ich moechte hiermit allen - v.a. den "Zeitzeugen" jenseits des gro�en Teiches - danken, die mir bezueglich meiner Frage nach den gesellschaftspolitischen Implikationen der Two-Voices-Theorie behilflich waren. Ich hoffe es wirkt nicht anmassend, wenn ich sage, dass es mich freuen wuerde, wenn ich Euch Euren Gefallen irgendwanneinmal erwidern koennte. Wolfgang, Innsbruck ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Jun 28 13:45:56 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:54:39 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id JAA02318; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:53:36 -0400 From: Philip Thibodeau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: - two voices - Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Where the Harvard School came from is an interesting question. That many of its so-called founders have at various times expressed deep and sincere puzzlement as to how they ever became enlisted into this radical cabal is a pretty good token of the nature of the mystery. The appellation 'Harvard' gives the whole thing an undeserved air of concreteness; although several of its members have at one time or another been associated with Harvard (e.g. Putnam, Clausen, Thomas...), there was never any substantial collaboration among them at the time, in the early 60's, nor, for that matter, in latter decades. I once asked my advisor, Michael Putnam, what had inspired "The Poetry of the Aeneid," and he told me, honestly if rather unhelpfully, that he had sat down in the library of the American Academy in Rome with his copy of Vergil and begun to write. At other times he acknowledged a debt to Viktor Poschl's "Die Dichtkunst Virgils," but then again he says as much in the preface to his book. In my own opinion, the real inspiration for "The Poetry of the Aeneid" is the first article it lists in its notes: "I am much indebted in the pages which follow to the admirable analysis of the imagery of Book II by Bernard M.W. Knox, "The Serpent and the Flame: The Imagery of the Second Book of the Aeneid," AJP 71 (1950) 379-400," (n1). Read Knox with "The Poetry..", and I think you'll be struck by their similarities in language and argument. Much of it is already there in Knox, in nuce: the careful paraphrase, the keen eye for 'patterns' of words or imagery or meaning, and the measured interpretation of said patterns. What's truly remarkable is that Knox's article, on Aen. bk. 2, had to wait for over a decade before anyone really began to apply its methods to other parts of Vergil. Well, this looks hermetic enough: the inspiration for a founding work of the Harvard School traced to a journal article. No outside influences, then, nothing save for some hints picked up from earlier scholarship? One may be skeptical, yet such a conclusion is I think quite faithful to the spirit and the intention of the authors: Clausen, Putnam, and now Thomas insist that all they ever wanted to do was have us return to Vergil's text, to focus again on the words themselves, without any preconceptions about what Vergil 'ought' to be saying. (Like Wordsworth and Ruskin, they want us to set aside our works of art and return to Nature herself - only here 'art' = interpretation, and 'Nature' = Vergil.) But the question one wants to have answered is, where does the politics part of it (i.e. the anti-Augustanism) come from? As L. H.-S. observes, chronology would seem to rule out any sort of explanation which would invoke Vietnam, or the 'dissent and anguish' of the sixties - which of course means, the late sixties/early seventies. Perhaps there is some fifties Zeitgeist behind it, but what intellectual life was like in the fifties, I really cannot say. But maybe the chronological argument is misleading; for what if the Harvard School doesn't really designate a group of scholars conspiring to revise the way we read Vergil, but instead signifies the particular reception which their works received? In other words, "Harvard School" is the name for the convergence of several separate streams. First, you have Clausen's and Parry's articles, and Putnam's "The Poetry.."; then, New Criticism's takeover of literary criticism in classics; then, the political turmoil of the late sixties; then, something which had been around a while, Syme's Roman Revolution, which describes an Augustus half Machiavellian virtuoso, half 20th-century dictator. I'm sure there are other factors as well, but these are the ones that come most readily to mind. Now you can see how these different parts might interact with one another. Here's one example of confluence; I paraphrase the underlying theme of a whole set of articles written on Vergil between c.1968-c.1978: "Syme had recognized the hypocracy behind Augustus' 'virtus' and 'auctoritas' - and you can see for yourself all the authority figures we have today whose virtues are pure show. Naturally Vergil, being a poet, would have known where the truth lay. Syme was right about Augustus, but misunderstood Vergil (he was a historian after all, not a literary critic). Here then is a project: to redeem the poetry of Vergil as the product of the one honest man in Augustan Rome." Another factor behind the success of the Harvard School-interpretation is the startling, almost uncanny ease with which it can be taught, applied, and extended. To start, all you really need is a text; you read very carefully, note repetitions of phrases or words or images, ponder the way they vary from one context to another in such a way as to create a narrative through imagery which may or, observe, may not square with the surface narrative. That second story, the other voice, is what you are after. When you have gone through all of Vergil, then you turn to his Hellenistic sources, and repeat... It is a valid method, certainly, combining as it does philological scrutiny with hermeneutic charity in an admirable balance; yes, the interpretations it yields are esoteric (this is voice of dissent, after all) - but everyone knows the ancient elites themselves had a taste for indirection. All the same, it is odd how easily people can pick up this method of reading; odd, that it should somehowbecome the standard method for students to use when writing papers about Vergil - even when they are reading him in translation (!) I think, then, that the "Harvard School" became so popular in large part due to circumstances which its supposed founders did not foresee. That would explain the mixture of gratitude and puzzlement with which they later reacted to the whole thing. On the whole, the School's approach has generated a large number of genuine and important insights into Vergil. It has, for example, done much to advance the study of allusion in Vergil and in Roman poetry generally. As far as its politics goes, it has certainly stimulated some very keen debate about the relationship between Vergil and Augustus - witness some of the exchanges on this list! And, at least in the U.S., it has interested a great many students in the classics who might otherwise have skipped it; students originally inspired, as I myself was, by the idea of Vergil as Augustus' bad-conscience. But here's the kicker: to the extent that the "Harvard School" can be pinned down as a specific phenomenon, it turns out to have been shaped in large part by late 60's Zeitgeist: the "School" came into being because of the reception (misprison?) of some select works of literary criticism at the hands of scholars who were inspired by various contemporary circumstances to take them as far they would go. Philip Thibodeau The University of Georgia and not helped by the v>Cf. Clausen in Horsfall, p. 313. 'The mild-minded pessimism of the >Harvard school--the so-called Harvard school--reflects the mood of the >fifties: it had little or nothing to do with the dissent and anguish of >the sixties . . .'. This seems well enough established by chronology: >Clausen cites three central works by other representatives of this >school, one from 1953, one from 1963, and one from 1965, together with >his own of 1964, 'written fifteen years earlier, in 1949'. So, that is >one known to have been written under Truman, another presumably so, even >though published under Eisenhower, a third under Kennedy, and a fourth >under Kennedy or the first months of Johnson; even 1965 is rather early >for a book to have been *written* against the background of anti- >Vietnam-War upheavals, however it might have been *received*. > Could non-Americans be told what it was about the Truman, >Eisenhower, and Kennedy years that might encourage such a reading? Fear >of nuclear extermination, fear of a Communist victory in the Cold War, >fear of the HUAC and McCarthy? The step from those to a 'mild-minded >pessimism' (emphasis on the adjective) that read the _Aeneid_ in a less >cheer-leading fashion may seem obvious to an American; it needs >explaining to outsiders. A British critic, affected by the loss of >empire, might have been expected to come up with something like it, but >in the event it was an American invention. > >Leofranc Holford-Strevens >*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > >Leofranc Holford-Strevens >67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone >Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? >OX2 6EJ > >tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 >email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) > >*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Jun 28 21:24:02 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:27:47 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id MAA26082; Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:12:58 -0500 From: Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: - two voices - In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp.wesleyan.edu [129.133.1.61] claimed to be mail.wesleyan.edu Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Great post by Phil Thibideau. I have time only for some tidbits. See Kallendorf, Craig "Historicizing the 'Harvard School': Pessimistic Readings of the Aeneid in Italian Renaissance Scholarship" HSCPh 99 (1999) 391-403 for five Italians of the Renaissance who saw a fair amount of darkness in Vergil but had nothing to do with Harvard or Vietnam. Nicholas Horsfall (cited by Kallendorf), Companion to the Study of Horsfall, 192ff, discusses Parry and other works (I think soemone ahs already mentioned him, and the Clausen appendix). He cites 4 works from the 20's and 30's that prefigure much of the darker views of Vergil in the 50's and 60's. he laos points out that RA Brooks, "was in fact Assistant Secretary of the Army in the early days of the Vietnam War". I think I've mentioned before a Richard Thomas book on the reception of Vergil that is in press. Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies & Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Jun 29 10:03:57 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 29 Jun 2000 05:11:27 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id CAA07871; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:06:39 +0200 From: Robert Dyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: RE: - two voices - Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [fr]C-NSCPCD (Win98; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Accept-Language: en-US,fr,de,el,ru References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Responding to James and Philip. First, I was trying to explain how a particular way of looking at Vergil's Aeneas and at his relationship with Cornelius Gallus caught on so quickly with younger professors and almost all students in the 60s. It does not exactly explain why Clausen in particular adopted this view, and my memory of Michael Putnam at the time places him rather far from the flower children. But there was a pervasive unquiet among almost all our students that ensured our words were better received if they questioned Aeneas's sense of duty. There were also in many universities strong administrative pressures to be well received by students. No administrators wanted to become the target of irrationally violent dissent. It is hard to recapture that mood. What I tried to say is that I was made aware of the "two voices" argument and accepted that Vergil was aware that different people would read his character in different ways. Do not forget that the moods of frustration were even more violent in Italy when Vergil was a young man. It would be truly odd if he did not have good friends who accepted Cicero, that the republic must be protected at all costs against ant-republican politicians. We must enter their heads in the 40s in Italy, in the same way as the younger generation is asking to enter the heads of the 1960 scholars. We have all been through the arguments on Gallus many times before, and know that we all stand, wherever we stand, on flimsy evidence. I personally find the reasons to dismiss Servius on this point, simply because he is often in error, unacceptable. We know it is flimsy evidence, but it is no flimsier than much of what we do accept. I continue to interpret the story of Orpheus and Eurydice as an elegant allegory - all that is ever available to intellectual dissenters under repressive regimes - for what Servius says stood in its place before. I have no expectation of convincing those who choose to admire Aeneas as a model of weak humanity become strong through experience or to admire Augustus. I believe I share a viewpoint with those who were influenced by Cicero's preaching about the republic in the years before Caieta, and with those who questioned the motives of the United States in Vietnam. Rob Dyer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Jun 29 10:29:11 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:22:55 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id HAA12087; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:46:57 +0100 From: James Butrica <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: - two voices - In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Philip Thibodeau has anticipated a point that I was intending to make about the origins of the "pessimistic" school of Virgilian interpretation: >As L. H.-S. observes, chronology would seem to rule out any sort of >explanation which would invoke Vietnam, or the 'dissent and anguish' of the >sixties - which of course means, the late sixties/early seventies. Perhaps >there is some fifties Zeitgeist behind it, but what intellectual life was >like in the fifties, I really cannot say. > then, the political turmoil of the late >sixties; then, something which had been around a while, Syme's Roman >Revolution, which describes an Augustus half Machiavellian virtuoso, half >20th-century dictator. I'm sure there are other factors as well, but these >are the ones that come most readily to mind. > >Now you can see how these different parts might interact with one another. >Here's one example of confluence; I paraphrase the underlying theme of a >whole set of articles written on Vergil between c.1968-c.1978: "Syme had >recognized the hypocracy behind Augustus' 'virtus' and 'auctoritas' - and >you can see for yourself all the authority figures we have today whose >virtues are pure show. Naturally Vergil, being a poet, would have known >where the truth lay. Syme was right about Augustus, but misunderstood >Vergil (he was a historian after all, not a literary critic). Here then is >a project: to redeem the poetry of Vergil as the product of the one honest >man in Augustan Rome." > I would make the point more strongly, however, and in a different way: it is the success of Syme's hatchet-job on Augustus, taken out of context, that made the "pessimistic" interpretation inevitable. (I say hatchet-job because he clearly made every effort to interpret every one of Octavius' actions in the worst possible light and every one of Antony's in the best.) Once a completely negative interpretation of Augustus' career became not only possible but almost mandatory, it followed inevitably that critics studying the poetry associated with him would have to distance those poets and themselves from Augustus, and the only way to preserve the integrity and value of the poetry was to assume that the poets were as critical of Augustus as the scholars themselves; no doubt other political issues of the '60s -- like the high value placed upon protest and movements for social change -- helped to reinforce the approach. (Of course no-one was bothered by the thought that accepting financial support from Maecenas but undermining his friend Augustus might make hypocrites of these poets.) "Pessimistic" interpretation of Augustan poets is by no means confined to Virgil; it can be found in the scholarship on Horace and Propertius as well, and even the scholarship on Tibullus (Tibullus doesn't mention Augustus, ergo he belongs, along with Messalla, to the "opposition"). A curious example of the phenomenon is the book by H.P. Stahl entitled "Propertius: Love and War: Individual and State under Augustus." One of Stahl's key assumptions is that Augustus' reign was one of Stalinist oppression: we're expected to believe, for example, that Propertius risked damnatio memoriae if he didn't say nice things about the "Aeneid." The point that I want to raise is that Stahl evidently didn't think it was necessary to document this supposed atmosphere of repression: he simply assumed it, against the evidence to the contrary, and of course the book got a rapturous reception from the converted, who also didn't want to be limited by the evidence or even, it seems, to think about it. James Lawrence Peter Butrica Department of Classics Memorial University St. John's, Newfoundland A1C 5S7 (709) 737-7914 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Jun 29 10:03:59 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:12:20 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id EAA19742; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 04:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:16:17 +0100 From: Arne J�nsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: - two voices - In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] >hello everybody, for my dissertatio need some information about the >so-called Harvard School i.e. the proponents of the two-voices-theory such >as Parry, Johnson, Putnam ecc. Are they or their theories in any way >connected to the ideals of the 68-generation, the flower-power-movement, the >opposition to the vietnam war etc.? does their exist any useful secondary >literature on the subject? many thanks, wolfgang >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub Re: Two voices, the Harvard school There is a very good article on that subject entitled "The Man of Authority. Images of Power in Virgil's Aeneid, 1.50-156" (pp 187 sqq) by P�r Sandin in Spr�kets speglingar, Studies in honour of Professor Birger Bergh, Kristianstad, Sweden ISBN 91-87976-13-7. Sandin is very sceptical about the fundamental ideas of the Harvard school and tries to pin-point Virgil's attitudes to Augustus by analysing a key passage in the Aeneid. Yours Arne J�nsson Docent Arne J�nsson Klassiska institutionen S�lvegatan 2 S-223 62 LUND Sweden Tel: + 46 (0)46 222 34 23 Fax: + 46 (0)46 222 42 27 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Jun 29 14:01:50 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:56:42 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id KAA21849; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:26:20 +0100 From: James Butrica <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: - two voices - In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] >JLPB observes: > >>I would make the point more strongly, however, and in a different way: it >>is the success of Syme's hatchet-job on Augustus, taken out of context, >>that made the "pessimistic" interpretation inevitable. (I say hatchet-job >>because he clearly made every effort to interpret every one of Octavius' >>actions in the worst possible light and every one of Antony's in the best.) >>Once a completely negative interpretation of Augustus' career became not >>only possible but almost mandatory, it followed inevitably that critics >>studying the poetry associated with him would have to distance those poets >>and themselves from Augustus, and the only way to preserve the integrity >>and value of the poetry was to assume that the poets were as critical of >>Augustus as the scholars themselves; > >This is a highly plausible scenario, and if there are parallel universes >there may well be a world somewhere where it happened. But in the absence >of actual evidence, why should we believe this myth of origins any more >than the chronologically impossible idea that the darker "school" of >Vergilian criticism originated with the Vietnam War? Because it isn't chronologically impossible? And what sort of evidence could we have here, short of autobiographical statements by people saying "I read Syme, and therefore I took a dim view of any poet associated with Augustus"? But of course we could not trust such statements; what is said is never what is meant. I see a lot of discussion conducted in a scarcity or even absence of evidence, quite recently on this list for example. > >JLPB's example of H-P Stahl's Propertius book is also a curious example >that undermines his claim, for Stahl is a relentless advocate of a >relentlessly and unambiguously Augustan Vergil. Did Stahl loathe Augustus >when he wrote the Propertius book, then see the light before his later >articles on Vergil? I have no special contact with Stahl's psychology, but I don't see how his view of Virgil contradicts what was in fact a straightforward and quite factual statement about his book on Propertius: it assumes an atmosphere of repression and makes no attempt to justify that assumption in the light of evidence. I think it's pretty obvious why he felt no need to justify his view: it's simply assumed, without thought even, by many others as well. This sort of red-herring non-sequitur doesn't help much in a discussion, but it suggests that you're short of really useful ideas here. Did he change his mind because his poetry got banned, >as in the (shaky) story about Lucan? Did *who* change *whose* mind because *whose* poetry got banned? Your reference is too opaque. Don't tell me that bastard Augustus banned Stahl's poetry too??? (Actually I don't think the >chronology works here.) If critics mindlessly must disassociate themselves >from evil and disassociate their poets from evil, then a critic would have >to feel all poets were equally opposed to evil, right? Nor do I see how this responds to anything that I wrote, though it is interesting that you seem to equate Augustus with the principle of "evil": a bit simplistic? Obviously the world would have been much better off with that paragon of morality and principle Marc Antony in charge (he was going to restore the Republic, you know -- no, really he was), or even Lepidus -- no "evil" there. Or maybe Brutus and Cassius would have saved the day; they were decent chaps, weren't they? > >The same principle would, of course, also blind critics who love Augustus >from ever being able to understand poetry by someone who does not. Let us >for an instant imagine that poetry critical of Augustus existed. It does, in Ovid. If >Augustus is good then anyone who criticizes him must be bad, and it would >follow inevitably that critics studying poetry associated with him would >have to distance that poetry and themselves from the misguided >(hypothetical) criticism of Augustus. Such simplistic ideas of "good" and "bad" and support and hostility are precisely what we need to escape. > >Or we could try to imagine that people who diasgree with our interpretation >of Vergil are not necessarily either misguided children, or poor victims of >a psychosis from which we, thank the gods, are safe. As you evidently do not, since you have chosen to treat me as a misguided child unable to appreciate your much higher wisdom (quite frankly, it's hard to see how most of what you've written constitutes a response to my own suggestion); take your own advice. But I don't suppose that oracles like to have their utterances questioned. > >Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara >Professor of Classical Studies & Chair Classical Studies Dept. >[EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University >860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 >Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub James Lawrence Peter Butrica Department of Classics Memorial University St. John's, Newfoundland A1C 5S7 (709) 737-7914 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Jun 29 12:16:29 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:57:08 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA02348; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:54:13 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Virgil editions: online exhibit Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-rich><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt><excerpt>Some of you may know this already, but this one was new to me: David Weston Virgil through Ten Centuries ---------------------------- Description, with photographs, of a 1995 exhibition of Virgil editions (manuscript and print) in the Glasgow University Library, from the ninth century to the nineteenth century. http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/virgil/virgilex.html </excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt></excerpt> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub </x-rich> From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Jun 29 12:16:29 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:05:15 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id JAA04896; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:56:38 +0200 From: Robert Dyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: - two voices - Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [fr]C-NSCPCD (Win98; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk X-Accept-Language: en-US,fr,de,el,ru References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Thiis thread gets more and more interesting as we as individuals position ourselves around Aeneas and Augustus. Syme's "pessimism" about Augustus arose from his pioneer work on, and increasing understanding of, the rhetoric of Cicero and Tacitus under the imperial regimes they knew. His pioneering work has born fruit slowly and is blossoming into the school of thought that sees a pervasive interest in Cicero's later rhetoric and rhetorical theory as a way for the classics-educated to talk to each other about regimes they detested. Talking about Aeneas in this way allowed my classes in the years 1966-73 to express their anxieties about US policy in Vietnam and its demands on "duty" in ways they dared not talk openly in the pervasive presence of the FBI on college campuses, at least under Nixon. The terror of watching traumatized big brothers come back from Vietnam, having nightmares of the people they had seen blown up, torched or killed by rockets lit up into their anuses or vaginas, produced a decade of teenagers with intense questions about the words "duty to God, my country and my family." It is hard to recreate in historical portrait the intensity of those years from the comfortable perspective of the last decades. We were all a little scorched by it, because the nightmare was so real to so many we loved, taught or respected. "Duty" can never be quite the same to the alumni of those college years. I cannot see in what ways the terrors of Civil War in Rome, the U.S. and elsewhere were less traumatizing. The precious pietas of those days was ripped apart by similar terrors of families fighting each other, senators cut down, and so on. I cannot see how Vergil could have risen above it to see pietas as an unambiguous word. The notion is very attractive that the 1960s had something in common with Rome in the decades of the collapsing and collapsed republic. It is part of my confidence that Clausen and Parry were, at least in part, right. On another personal note I was first taught the Aeneid by a high school teacher who "believed in" Aeneas. I went home in the evening to read the newspapers that explained to me that the Nazis on trial at Nuremburg were not entitled to claim they had acted out of "duty to their country and their F�hrer " in their crimes against the Jews and others. It was a puzzling conflict in the mind of a teenager, how Aeneas could be right and they could be wrong. Rob Dyer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Jun 29 14:01:25 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:58:02 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id KAA15066; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:56:12 -0500 From: Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: - two voices - In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp.wesleyan.edu [129.133.1.61] claimed to be mail.wesleyan.edu Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] JLPB observes: >I would make the point more strongly, however, and in a different way: it >is the success of Syme's hatchet-job on Augustus, taken out of context, >that made the "pessimistic" interpretation inevitable. (I say hatchet-job >because he clearly made every effort to interpret every one of Octavius' >actions in the worst possible light and every one of Antony's in the best.) >Once a completely negative interpretation of Augustus' career became not >only possible but almost mandatory, it followed inevitably that critics >studying the poetry associated with him would have to distance those poets >and themselves from Augustus, and the only way to preserve the integrity >and value of the poetry was to assume that the poets were as critical of >Augustus as the scholars themselves; This is a highly plausible scenario, and if there are parallel universes there may well be a world somewhere where it happened. But in the absence of actual evidence, why should we believe this myth of origins any more than the chronologically impossible idea that the darker "school" of Vergilian criticism originated with the Vietnam War? JLPB's example of H-P Stahl's Propertius book is also a curious example that undermines his claim, for Stahl is a relentless advocate of a relentlessly and unambiguously Augustan Vergil. Did Stahl loathe Augustus when he wrote the Propertius book, then see the light before his later articles on Vergil? Did he change his mind because his poetry got banned, as in the (shaky) story about Lucan? (Actually I don't think the chronology works here.) If critics mindlessly must disassociate themselves from evil and disassociate their poets from evil, then a critic would have to feel all poets were equally opposed to evil, right? The same principle would, of course, also blind critics who love Augustus from ever being able to understand poetry by someone who does not. Let us for an instant imagine that poetry critical of Augustus existed. If Augustus is good then anyone who criticizes him must be bad, and it would follow inevitably that critics studying poetry associated with him would have to distance that poetry and themselves from the misguided (hypothetical) criticism of Augustus. Or we could try to imagine that people who diasgree with our interpretation of Vergil are not necessarily either misguided children, or poor victims of a psychosis from which we, thank the gods, are safe. Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies & Chair Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Jun 30 08:49:01 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 29 Jun 2000 15:16:01 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id MAA04179; Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 14:10:36 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: another online resource (Aen. 4 read in Latin) Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Aen. 4, read in Latin by Wilfried Stroh (Univ. of Munich), in the RealAudio format (which means you don't have to wait for the whole file to download before you start listening): http://www.tcom.ohiou.edu/books/aeneid/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Jul 06 10:46:42 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 6 Jul 2000 10:33:17 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id HAA13222; Thu, 06 Jul 2000 07:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 09:15:00 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: - two voices - In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 03:12 PM 6/28/00 -0500, Jim O'Hara wrote: >See Kallendorf, Craig "Historicizing the 'Harvard School': Pessimistic >Readings of the Aeneid in Italian Renaissance Scholarship" HSCPh 99 (1999) >391-403 >for five Italians of the Renaissance who saw a fair amount of darkness in >Vergil but had nothing to do with Harvard or Vietnam. Like everything Kallendorf does, the scholarship in this article is top-notch. There's a distinction to be made, though, which I think Kallendorf glosses over in his title. One can find, as Kallendorf demonstrates, occasional criticisms of Virgil's hero in the renaissance tradition. (I say occasional because that is how Kallendorf himself characterizes them in the last three or four pages of his article; he makes the same point again in his new--and very fine--book, _Virgil and the Myth of Venice_.) What one doesn't find, as far as I can tell, is a renaissance reading of the Aeneid in which those criticisms are attributed _to the author_. In other words, to say that I have a "pessimistic reading of the Aeneid" does not just mean that I feel depressed when I read the poem; it means that I think Virgil was depressed, too -- and that you just don't find in the period Kallendorf is talking about. Obitaneously, to one and sundry: this has been a substantial discussion, probably the best we've had on the topic so far, but let's keep cut down on the motive-mongering, shall we? _Both sides_, it seems to me, have been rather self-indulgent in this regard. Attributing divergences of opinion to "psychosis" is fun, but doesn't really get us anywhere. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Jul 06 11:59:23 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #30606) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 6 Jul 2000 11:32:36 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA27465; Thu, 06 Jul 2000 08:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 11:23:57 -0500 From: Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: - two voices - In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host smtp.wesleyan.edu [129.133.1.61] claimed to be mail.wesleyan.edu Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] >...In other words, to say that I have a "pessimistic reading of the >Aeneid" does not just mean that I feel depressed when I read the poem; it >means that I think Virgil was depressed, too -- ... > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- This does not really follow, in two ways. One, you can be pessimistic without being depressed. I'm pessimistic about the future of my hairline, but not depressed. Two, a poem, especially a poem written in a genre with a long tradition, is more than just one man's mood. This might mean I just want you to rephrase what you're saying a bit, but could also have broader importance. Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara Professor of Classical Studies Classical Studies Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University 860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Jul 14 18:22:56 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:37:04 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id NAA22904; Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:29:58 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Latin homework help forum Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] The following will, I believe, be of interest to many on this list: LATIN HOMEWORK HELP FORUM (from Janet Burns) -------------------------------------------- With "BACK-TO-SCHOOL DAYS" right around the corner, I am thrilled to announce a new and important addition to the Latin.About.com site -- a feature created specifically for Latin students or any of you who have "homework" questions, grammar questions, or related concerns. The new LATIN HOMEWORK HELP FORUM is accessible from the right column of my main forum page at http://latin.about.com/mpboards.htm (click on the third box titled "Homework Help Forum") OR from the following URL: http://www.delphi.com/ab-latin2/start. BOOKMARK these pages today! QUESTIONS -- OR ANSWERS to others' questions -- may be posted in a wide variety of "folders" that I have created for you: (1) General Discussion (2) Grammar (3) Jenney Questions (4) LFA Questions (5) Cambridge Questions (6) Wheelock Questions (7) Ecce Romani Questions (8) Mythology (9) Trivia Suggestions for additional "folders" are most welcome. I want every one of you to feel free to visit and post your questions AND your answers! TEACHERS: I would appreciate your passing this information on to your students! PARENTS: Please let your children know about our new forum. STUDENTS: Come by for a visit anytime! There will always be someone there to help you! And it may be that YOU will be able to help out a peer! Please pay us a visit today -- and DO come back often! Maximas gratias vobis ago! Janet Burns Latin Language Site http://latin.about.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Jul 24 09:01:55 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 22 Jul 2000 18:02:32 CDT Received: from server-www.statravel.org.tw (ttla.com.tw [210.64.115.18]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id QAA12748; Sat, 22 Jul 2000 16:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (63.64.190.169 [63.64.190.169]) by server-www.statravel.org.tw with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) id P1203F7V; Sun, 23 Jul 2000 07:14:48 +0800 Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 19:03:48 +0000 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: $2500 to $5000 or more per week in 2 weeks To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service [48.4.924.55] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain Sensitivity: Restricted X-See-Also: 031EDABBA X-Accept-Language: en X-References: 022CD9FFC, 09C6A93F0 X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host ttla.com.tw [210.64.115.18] claimed to be server-www.statravel.org.tw Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Multiply Your Income... 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In this regard, Subject has a tremendous affect on the way you see things. Thus, relational information delimits both your personal and business affairs. However, the Social Security System adds legal tax reduction stratigies to the overall positive profitability. For example, the structure of various business entities both forign and domestic cannot be defined in such a way as to impose the way you see things. ******************************************************* From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Jul 24 17:53:39 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:00:57 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id HAA05993; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 07:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:57:39 -0400 From: Nancy Charlton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Virgil reference in the daily paper Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host mail.snip.net [209.204.64.14] claimed to be snip.net Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Mantovano subscribers might get a chuckle from a squib in the paper today. The Philadelphia Inquirer, in an article discussing George Bush's possibly running mate, reports that Dick Cheney seems to be the current favorite. He would seem to be, inter alia, the ultimate Washington insider. The virtuous Bill Bennett is quoted as telling CBS: "He's kind of the Virgil here leading Dante through the pugatory of Washington. He's a great guy for George Bush." Nancy Charlton Wayne PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Jul 25 09:22:09 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:59:33 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id QAA17780; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 16:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:57:44 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Virgilian glosses Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] << message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >> Learned listmembers, Commenting on 3M12, Boethius' poem on Orpheus and Euridice, William of Conches writes his probably most notorious gloss, where he lists the possible meanings of the underworld journey: Infernum uocauerunt philosphi hanc sublunarem regionem quia inferior est pars mundi et plena miseriae et doloris. Ad hanc sunt diuersi descensus: Naturalis, scilicet cum anima corpori coniungitur, non quod de caelestibus, ubi ante esset, descenderit, sed quia sunt causa quare corpori adiungatur. Vel descensus animae est coniunctio eiusdem cum corpore, quia tunc scilicet a propria dignitate descendit dum est subdita passionibus corporis. Alius descensus vitiosus est qui bipertitus est: alter enim fit per magicam artem, alter per alia vitia. Per magicam artem, cum aliquis sacrificando daemonibus eis loquitur. Unde Aeneas, antequam ad inferos descenderet, Misenum sepeliuit, quia, ut magica arte uentura cognosceret eum daemonibus sacrificauit. Per alia uitia fit dum aliquis totam intentionem in temporalibus ponit. Est alius descensus uirtuosus cum scilicet aliquis sapiens ad cognitionem temporalium descendit, et cum parum uel nichil in eis boni inuenerit, ab eorum amore concupiscentiam extrahit. Hoc modo ad inferna descendere uirtus est, sed duobus predictis modis per uitia, quarto modo natura.( 128-146 ed. Lodi Nauta) This gloss passed then in Bernard Silvestris'(?) commentary on _Aeneid_6. My question is: can anybody recall whether a similar gloss is present in Servius' or any other Virgilian commentaries (none of which I have at hand at the moment) or is this systematization original with William? (is any commentary on-line anywhere?) In particular, does his description of the *natural descent*, the original union of soul and body, ring any of your erudite bells? The way W. words this first case seems to indicate that he is dialoguing with one or more other commentaries, but I am not sure where to look for this. Many thanks in advance, Umberto Taccheri [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Jul 25 09:22:09 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 24 Jul 2000 19:31:04 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id QAA20625; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 16:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:33:18 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: classical reception: call for papers Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Call for Papers (with apologies for cross-posting) "Classical Literature in the Middle Ages: Reception History" 36th International Congress on Medieval Studies Kalamazoo, Michigan (USA), 3-6 May 2001 Please submit abstracts for papers on the medieval reception of classical literature to David Wilson-Okamura email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] English Department Macalester College 1600 Grand Ave. St. Paul, MN 55105 USA Abstracts, along with an abstract cover sheet, must be received by 15 September 2000, and should conform to the following rules, established by the Board of the Medieval Institute: 1. Papers submitted will be essentially new and will not have been presented in public before. 2. At top of front page include: Title of paper Subject area Name of author; institutional affiliation; complete mailing address; phone and fax numbers; and email address Confirmation of 20-minute reading time. 3. Abstracts must be typed, double-spaced, not more than 300 words in length, and must clearly indicate the paper's thesis, methodology, and conclusions. 4. Two copies of the abstract must be received by the stipulated deadline date. 5. An abstract cover sheet, available online at http://www.wmich.edu/medieval/congress/36cfp/01avreq.html, must be stapled to each abstract. 6. Papers submitted may not require more than 20 minutes reading time. Submission of an abstract will be considered agreement by the author to attend the Congress if the paper is accepted. No one else may be designated to read your paper. http://virgil.org/kalamazoo/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Jul 25 12:53:29 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:32:11 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id IAA05463; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:25:13 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Mynors vs. Geymonat Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] A few days ago I found a used copy of Geymonat's edition of the Opera for $20. Do I need this if I already have Mynors? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Jul 25 16:46:40 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:05:45 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id MAA10839; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:58:44 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Mynors vs. Geymonat In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >A few days ago I found a used copy of Geymonat's edition of the Opera for >$20. Do I need this if I already have Mynors? Yes, because it has a fuller apparatus, both of MSS and of the secondary transmission, than the restrictive norms of the Oxford Classical Texts allow. At that price it's a bargain. Leofranc *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Jul 26 14:12:46 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:32:51 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id KAA21804; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:23:49 +0100 From: Helen Conrad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Mynors vs. Geymonat In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.0 (1513) X-Authentication-warning: wilsoninet.com: Host mail1.mail.iol.ie [194.125.2.192] claimed to be mail.iol.ie Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] A lot would depend on the apparatus - Mynors certainly doesn't replace Ribbeck on that level. Helen COB > From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:25:13 -0500 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: VIRGIL: Mynors vs. Geymonat > > A few days ago I found a used copy of Geymonat's edition of the Opera for > $20. Do I need this if I already have Mynors? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Jul 28 10:27:07 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 28 Jul 2000 10:07:45 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id GAA13774; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 06:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 08:52:17 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Re: Mynors vs. Geymonat In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 07:58 PM 7/25/00 +0100, you wrote: >>A few days ago I found a used copy of Geymonat's edition of the Opera for >>$20. Do I need this if I already have Mynors? >Yes, because it has a fuller apparatus, both of MSS and of the secondary >transmission, than the restrictive norms of the Oxford Classical Texts >allow. At that price it's a bargain. Leofranc Thank you. This was precisely what I needed to know. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Jul 28 14:09:55 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:58:02 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id JAA13019; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:50:46 +0100 From: Martin Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: status of servants Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] I usually think that V describes scenes realistically. It's convincing enough to think that Dido, like top people in most civilisations, is never really alone and is always watched. On the other hand there is something sacred about her and Leaders generally. The comites, those actually around, may be an odd mixture of high and low status people, secretaries of state and secretaries. (This struck me when I was watching a television programme about the Blair household in Downing Street.) On the other hand there will always be some restrictions on who can really come close to the Leader, especially in the inner parts of the house. If it comes to a suicide attempt there is a lot of difference between those who are few inches away, as Barce would have been, and those who are a few yards away. Herod the Great is said by Josephus to have attempted, raising a sword to his breast, beause he could not stand the pain of his illness. He was stopped by one of his relatives (one he had not eliminated) who was hiding behind a curtain and who seized the sword with a loud cry. The loud cry was presumably to attract the nearby comites. Something of this story seems implausible to me, in that someone really intent on suicide could surely have struck the blow before anyone else could push aside a curtain and make a grab for the weapon. Thus it seems plausible that Dido, having Aeneas' sword to hand, would be able to do the deed once Barce and Anna, the two people with a right to be really close, were temporarily out of the way. The comites are not necessarily unable to intervene because of low status but just because they keep that bit of extra distance. (I've missed contributing to discussion of V for several months. I've been caught in workplace policits ceu quondam torto verbere turbo. Perhaps you'll tolerate my making a few contributions over the next few days. -----Original Message----- From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Saturday, April 01, 2000 3:46 PM Subject: VIRGIL: status of servants ><< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >> > >From: "ddavis-henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 21:21:10 -0500 > >Dear Mantovanians: > >In Aeneid IV, 664 + 665, Dido's "comites " watch her fall upon her sword, >see her weapon frothing with blood and her spattered hands. It seems odd >that, after Dido goes to the trouble of sending Barce from the room for >Anna and thereby arranging to be alone to take her life, she does do this >with witnesses. Is this an instance of servants as nothing more than bits >of furniture in a royal residence? Please comment. > >Thanks, Denise D-Henry, Columbus, Ohio >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Jul 31 09:27:53 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:47:18 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id SAA26232; Sun, 30 Jul 2000 18:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:55:22 -0400 From: david connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: status of servants- reply Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Organization: corn hill ww MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: mailhost.capecod.net: Host cbrg0472.capecod.net [63.211.185.218] claimed to be capecod.net Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] I like Martin Hughes's analysis of this section on Dido's suicide, and his interesting reference to Josephus. Taking the time to think these ideas through is quite helpful. My question has to do with the nearly cinematic quality of much of V's narrations, a quality quite different from the oral storytelling technique of Homer, and the manner in which the Greek rhapsodes enthralled their ancient audience. There's so much more "sophistication" [a word chosen gingerly] in V's technique, and I wonder whether a Roman audience would have pondered the circumstances you've presented? There's a fine new poem by Louise Gluck entitled "Roman Study" that makes some subtle points about Virgil and I'd be curious to hear some reactions to it. It can be read at the Barnes & Noble website under her name. Thanks for an introducing an intriguing question. Martin Hughes wrote: > I usually think that V describes scenes realistically. It's convincing > enough to think that Dido, like top people in most civilisations, is never > really alone and is always watched. On the other hand there is something > sacred about her and Leaders generally. The comites, those actually around, > may be an odd mixture of high and low status people, secretaries of state > and secretaries. (This struck me when I was watching a television programme > about the Blair household in Downing Street.) On the other hand there will > always be some restrictions on who can really come close to the Leader, > especially in the inner parts of the house. If it comes to a suicide > attempt there is a lot of difference between those who are few inches away, > as Barce would have been, and those who are a few yards away. Herod the > Great is said by Josephus to have attempted, raising a sword to his breast, > beause he could not stand the pain of his illness. He was stopped by one of > his relatives (one he had not eliminated) who was hiding behind a curtain > and who seized the sword with a loud cry. The loud cry was presumably to > attract the nearby comites. Something of this story seems implausible to > me, in that someone really intent on suicide could surely have struck the > blow before anyone else could push aside a curtain and make a grab for the > weapon. Thus it seems plausible that Dido, having Aeneas' sword to hand, > would be able to do the deed once Barce and Anna, the two people with a > right to be really close, were temporarily out of the way. The comites are > not necessarily unable to intervene because of low status but just because > they keep that bit of extra distance. (I've missed contributing to > discussion of V for several months. I've been caught in workplace policits > ceu quondam torto verbere turbo. Perhaps you'll tolerate my making a few > contributions over the next few days. > -----Original Message----- > From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Saturday, April 01, 2000 3:46 PM > Subject: VIRGIL: status of servants > > ><< message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >> > > > >From: "ddavis-henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 21:21:10 -0500 > > > >Dear Mantovanians: > > > >In Aeneid IV, 664 + 665, Dido's "comites " watch her fall upon her sword, > >see her weapon frothing with blood and her spattered hands. It seems odd > >that, after Dido goes to the trouble of sending Barce from the room for > >Anna and thereby arranging to be alone to take her life, she does do this > >with witnesses. Is this an instance of servants as nothing more than bits > >of furniture in a royal residence? Please comment. > > > >Thanks, Denise D-Henry, Columbus, Ohio > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Jul 31 14:09:23 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:17:34 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id JAA28718; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:44:40 +0100 From: Martin Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sorry to have taken three months to comment! I'm sure I should have paid more attention to the theme of hope struggling against disappointment or disillusion. I want to suggest that V finds a basis for a certain kind of optimism in himself, more properly in the intellectual circle to which he belongs. Aeneas' reaction to the Shield, thrust on our attention at the two-thirds point of the poem, is 'though he could not know the reality, [to] rejoice in the image' of triumph and peace. This amounts to placing the greatest trust in the most powerful available narrative, which derives some of its power from the sheer art and carefulness of its construction. Not that the sequence of disappointment stops: the final advice to Ascanius, to maintain the parental work despite the evil fortune which has constantly beset it, expresses the strongest disappointment, though it stops just short of disillusion. Thinking of the themes of melancholy and pessimism, this speech certainly indicates the melancholy streak in Aeneas' mind without proving a lapse into real pessimism either by A or by V. No better alternative to belief in the most powerful and elaborate narrative emerges: trust by the Latins in the alternative story put to them by Juturna and Tolumnius turns out to be disastrous. The alternative story is, by comparison with the structured, articulated narratives known to Aeneas, hasty and improvised. We can set these scenes beside some in Geo III and IV. The great temple of Geo III has 'Caesar in its midst', but V himself is the founder and hierophant. In Geo IV Aristaeus doesn't seem to me like an improvised substitute for Gallus but another of V's careful images of himself, sharing with V the essential work of maintaining the continuity of the hive. Aristaeus is a little unimpressive as a person, but he is desperate enough to venture into strange places and sources of information (literally deep!) which are not available to others. That is to say, he is an anxiety-racked intellectual who knows that he has started something from which he cannot draw back. It becomes his role to bind Proteus, the symbol of wild political change, and to bring the bees from death to life through the unimaginable process of bougonia. What I think V means is that something has happened to make the latest phase of the Civil Wars really the last: and he's done it. The determined, ruthless intellectual group - perhaps at first little more than a bunch of student radicals - which he had led on a mission to save the civilisation of the West had managed to tell the story which would, for a long time at least, be believed. Alternative stories would for a while look improvised in comparison. Though the death of Marcellus has struck a massive blow to V's credibility - can we still believe that the house of Caesar has divine favour? - he believes that his grand narrative can stand even that test. He certainly uses the lament for Marcellus as a moment to commit himself to his story by merging his own narrative voice with that of his character Anchises. Here too he admits, by the device of the Ivory Gate, that was an element of ruthlessness and enormity about what he and his allies had done. The gnawing fear of false prophecy, never fully allayed, is admission that in the future it is never impossible that the deep resources of philosophy, poetry and science which he had used as a means of salvation may fall into dangerous hands. If I tell my political philosophy students, with all this in mind, that political power is an unstable reality created by elaborate fictions, will I be right? Will I have become a pessimist? - Martin Hughes -----Original Message----- From: Jim O'Hara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Saturday, April 22, 2000 12:44 AM Subject: Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism >>V is poet whose whole work is written against the background of one of >>history's longest civil wars. Those wars, more than their counterparts in >>England and America, had the nightmarish quality of seeming to be over on >several occasions when they really had plenty of vicious life in them. > >>[much good stuff omitted] > > >> The total effect, >>I would say, is of a hint of optimism and reconciliation which is hard won >>and precarious, not in the least facile. ... the outcome of the Civil Wars is >>celebrated amid sympathy for the losers. > >Great post. But how do the two parts of it I've cited above go >together? If Romans knew civil was had broken out again and again >after apparent settlements, what reason was there for thinking that >the future would be any different? What impact would the death of >Marcellus, highlighted so movingly in Aeneid 6, have on thinking >about the future? What hope for the future would there be after the >(apparently--looks deceive) frail Augustus? Doesn't the hero of the >Aeneid keep thinking his troubles are over, only to have Italy or >peace then seem further away? What does it mean that the Fourth >Eclogue was published either 2-3 or possibly even as much as 5-6 >years after the Treaty of Brundisium? What really is the difference >between precarious optimism and pessimism? > >Jim O'Hara James J. O'Hara >Professor of Classical Studies & Chair Classical Studies Dept. >[EMAIL PROTECTED] Wesleyan University >860/685-2066 (fax: 2089) Middletown CT 06459-0146 >Home Page: http://www.wesleyan.edu/classics/faculty/jim.html >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Jul 31 14:22:00 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:19:49 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id LAA10019; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:17:51 -0700 (PDT) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VIRGIL: Yahoo! Auto Response Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Hola......Muchas gracias por tomarte la molestia de mandarme un e-mail. Por razones ajenas a mi voluntad, no voy a poder contestartelo lo antes posible ya que me encuentro estacionada en una isla del Caribe (q no es PR) y no voy a poder. De manera que, cuando regrese me gustaria poder leer el e-mail que me mandaste para tener algo que hacer. Gracias nuevamente y les mantendre informados de mis haza�as. Se CUidan... Ileana -------------------- Original Message: >From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Jul 31 18:17:44 2000 Return-Path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Track: 1: 40 Received: from wilsoninet.com (192.41.8.139) by mta123.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Jul 2000 11:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id JAA28716; Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VIRGIL Digest V1 #105 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk VIRGIL Digest Monday, 31 July 19100 Volume 01 : Number 105 Mynors vs. Geymonat Re: VIRGIL: Mynors vs. Geymonat Re: VIRGIL: Mynors vs. Geymonat Re: Mynors vs. Geymonat Re: VIRGIL: status of servants Re: VIRGIL: status of servants- reply Re: VIRGIL: melancholy --> pessimism ---------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Aug 03 11:31:08 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsoninet.com ([192.41.8.139]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 3 Aug 2000 11:00:35 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id HAA21486; Thu, 03 Aug 2000 07:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 15:56:16 +0100 From: Martin Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Virgil's sexuality Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Jenkyns in 'Virgil's Experience' argues that the Lives really indicate that there were two versions of V's life, one homosexual and one heterosexual and that V the existence of these two versions shows that V had in reality 'kept his private life private'. I found this argument quite persuasive. Perhaps there were really three versions, with the third making him the sexless 'Parthenias'. In the days before the stories about celebrities were fixed by a mixture of tabloid press stories and libel actions I suppose that rumour did indeed become the particularly shapeless thing that V himself describes. All sorts of things were believed and scholars (as LHS mentions) put too much trust, to put it mildly, in their ability to sift out the truth by reading the real life story from 'the works'. Jenkyns, having entirely logical reason for not regarding the Nisus and Euryalus story as in any way an autobiographical note, seems to me to go too far in the opposite direction by treating it (as I understand him) as just another rather conventional celebration of Hellenistic military gayness. I think of it as a perceptive and disturbing discussion of the erotic impulses which become mixed up with the moral imperatives driving people to war. On the other side of the battle lines, the heterosexual feelings which appear in the Turnus-Lavinia-Amata triangle are part of the same theme. - Martin Hughes -----Original Message----- From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 4:55 PM Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Virgil's sexuality >I've been wanting to pick up this thread for a few weeks, but just haven't >had a good enough excuse to put my thoughts together. Over on the Eclogues >study, however, we've been talking about Virgil's second eclogue, which is >the love song of a male shepherd for a houseboy. A few excerpts from that >conversation, interspersed with my loquacious commentary--to which I >naturally hope someone will object: > >At 04:33 PM 6/27/00 -0500, Tom Bishop wrote: >>On concealing/revealing, a relevant footnote: my old schools copy of the >>Eclogues, published 1915 and bought second hand, has a single pencil mark >>carefully ruled straight down the middle of the page through the whole of >>Eclogue 2, and ONLY through Eclogue 2. > >Erasmus had the same problem. On the one hand, the Eclogues were a standard >school text in the renaissance. On the other hand, the second poem in the >collection obviously describes a forbidden form of love. Erasmus's advice >to teachers: overwhelm the kids with historical and grammatical >information, talk about the barriers to friendship between Corydon and >Alexis, and hope the kids don't notice. > >The other solution (suggested by "Donatus auctus," the expanded version of >the Donatus vita that started circulating in the fourteenth century) was to >insist on the "Platonic" aspect of such relationships. According to Aelius >Donatus (who is usually thought to be working from a lost life by >Suetonius), Virgil > > was sparing of food and wine. With regard to pleasure, he was > partial to boys. <But good men have thought that he loved boys > as Socrates loved Alcibiades, and Plato his sweetheart.> He > loved Cebes and Alexandrus most of all. Alexandrus was a gift to > him from Asinius Pollio; the second poem of his Bucolics refers to > him as "Alexis." Nor was the other one unlearned; in fact, Cebes > was a poet as well. It is also circulated that he lived together > with Plotia Hieria. But Asconius Pedianus maintains that she > herself made a habit out of telling stories about the older man; > indeed, that although Varius invited him to be his companion, > he refused obstinately. For the rest, all are thoroughly agreed > that his life was upright, both in word and thought, with the > result that he was commonly known as the "Virgin of Naples." > >The sentence in angle brackets <> is interpolated from the 14th century >version of the text I just mentioned. This doesn't mean the rest of it is >true, however. Spenserians, though, will recognize the interpolated bit as >the source of E.K.'s gloss on the "Januarie" eclogue, which deals with the >same problem: > > In thys place seemeth to be some sauour of disorderly loue, > which the learned call paederastice: but it is gathered beside > this meaning. For who that hath red Plato his dialogue called > Alcybiades, Xenophon and Maximus Tyrius of Socrates opinions, > may easily perceiue, that such loue is much to be alowed and > liked of, specially so meant, as Socrates vsed it: who sayth, > that in deede he loued Alcybiades extremely, yet not Alcybiades > person, but hys soule, which is Alcybiades owne selfe. And so > is paederastice much to be praeferred before gynerastice, that > is the loue which enflameth men with lust toward woman kind.... > >So, in fact, what looks like a forbidden love is actually purer than >"straight" love! > >Most of this is probably nonsense, of course: Virgil says up front that >Corydon "was hot" (ardebat) for Alexis, and with a passion that deprived >him of reason; this is "dementia" (69), not platonic love so-called. Nor >should this surprise us. As Melinda Weinstein points out: > >> Beautiful, yet cruel young men are >>central to Theocritus's homoerotic poetry. But I don't think it would have >>occurred to Vergil at this time to feel shame. > >The question of shame is a tricky one, I think. On the one hand, lots of >people did it, in poetry and in real life. On the other hand, Romans didn't >do it with impunity. Augustus did it, according to Suetonius, but he didn't >advertise the fact on the _Res gestae_, either! Julius Caesar may, or may >not, have done it with King Nicomedes, but the accusation dogged him for >decades, "a deep and lasting reproach, which laid him open to insults from >every quarter" (Suetonius, "Life of the Divine Julius," 49). Juvenal's >satires on Roman homosexuality (1.2, 3.9) are relatively late; it seems >relevant, however, that they contrast contemporary laxness in this area >with traditional Roman morality. > >What does all this have to do with Ecl. 2? Merely that the casual >bisexuality of the poem (I am thinking here of the reference to Amaryllis >in 14-15) strikes me as somewhat studied. Not that Virgil and his crowd >were especially anxious about this sort of thing, but that the complete >exclusion of moral considerations is an aspect of the pastoral fantasy, >comparable to the exclusion of hardship from Tityrus's vision of the world >in the previous poem. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Aug 06 22:46:33 2000 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-Persona: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >From mantovano-returns Sun Aug 6 12:46:33 2000 Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id MAA15070; Sun, 6 Aug 2000 12:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 19:49:13 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Louise Gluck, "Roman Study" In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Unverified) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-UIDL: b5106665bc0fca93dc4fc4689408b2a5 At 09:55 PM 7/30/00 -0400, david connor wrote: >There's a fine new poem by Louise Gluck entitled "Roman Study" that makes some >subtle points about Virgil and I'd be curious to hear some reactions to it. It >can be read at the Barnes & Noble website under her name. David, do you have a more precise URL for this poem? I checked the B&N web site and didn't find anything. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
