After about a month, we are back online. I think, but cannot guarantee, that we have seen the last of the phantom "remove" requests. If it proves otherwise, please hold your fire.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://geoffreychaucer.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Chaucer: An Annotated Guide to Online Resources ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Feb 22 17:01:43 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:40:44 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id PAA03268; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:06:35 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:43:29 -0600 From: Emilio Canales Mu�oz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (by way of David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) Subject: VIRGIL: Dudas sobre ediciones de Virgilio en el Renacimiento. Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/enriched; charset="iso-8859-1" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-rich>Estimados se�ores: Soy profesor de Lat�n y actualmente realizo mi tesis doctoral sobre la obra <italic>Lusus </italic>J. B. Evangelisti (poeta italiano del XVI). En ella aparecen referencias a ediciones de la <italic>Eneida</italic> o comentarios de versos de Virgilio. No encuentro demasiada informaci�n sobre las cuestiones que les remito a continuaci�n: 1) Habla de <bold><underline>Nicolaus Erythraeus</underline> como editor de la <italic>Eneida</italic>, pero no logro localizar datos biogr�ficos sobre el mismo. 2) Menciona un comentario de </bold><underline>Prisciano</underline> al verso <italic>Bis patriae cecidere manus. quin protinus omnia</italic> (6, 33), sin que hasta el momento haya localizado en la obra del gram�tico referencia a este verso. 3) Refiere la lectura que <bold><underline>Poliziano y Pontano</underline> realizan del verso 8, 402 de la <italic>Eneida: Quod fieri ferro liquidove potest electro</italic>, pero no localizo ni en bibliotecas ni en Internet ninguna menci�n a alguna edici�n de la <italic>Eneida </italic>comentada por ellos. ¿Podr�an ayudarme en alguna de estas cuestiones? Se lo agradecer�a infinitamente. Mi agradecimiento de antemano por su colaboraci�n. </bold> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub </x-rich> From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Feb 22 17:01:42 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:39:54 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id PAA03422; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:07:03 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:06:19 -0600 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Re: Dudas sobre ediciones de Virgilio en el Renacimiento. Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 09:04 PM 1/28/01 +0100, Emilio Canales Mu�oz wrote: > 1) Habla de Nicolaus Erythraeus como editor de la Eneida, pero no logro >localizar datos biogr�ficos sobre el mismo. born 1577 (Rome) died 1647 (Rome) source: Mario Emilio Cosenza, Biographical and bibliographical dictionary of the Italian humanists and of the world of classical scholarship in Italy, 1300-1800, 2nd ed. (5 vols.; Boston, Hall, 1962). Erythraeus was also the compiler of a popular index to Virgil's works. > 2) Menciona un comentario de Prisciano al verso Bis patriae cecidere manus. >quin protinus omnia (6, 33), sin que hasta el momento haya localizado en la >obra del gram�tico referencia a este verso. This I do not know. But please do not let my ignorance discourage others. > 3) Refiere la lectura que Poliziano y Pontano realizan del verso 8, 402 de >la Eneida: Quod fieri ferro liquidove potest electro, pero no localizo ni en >bibliotecas ni en Internet ninguna menci�n a alguna edici�n de la Eneida >comentada por ellos. Poliziano wrote a commentary on the Georgics (which remained in manuscript until very recently). To my knowledge, he did not write a commentary on the Aeneid (though perhaps there were some lecture notes that will surface someday). I am guessing, therefore, that this refers to a remark he made in passing, in a book on another subject. As for Pontano: I am assuming that this refers to the poet, Giovanni P. (1426�1503). To my knowledge, he did not write a commentary on the Aeneid, either. Jacobus Pontanus (= Jakob Spanmueller) did publish a Virgil commentary in 1599: Symbolarum libri xvii Virgilii (Augsburg: J. Praetorius, 1599). A facsimile reprint was published in the Renaissance and the Gods series (3 vols; New York: Garland Pub., 1976). I am guessing that this is not the "Pontano" you mean. However, the Pontanus commentary is not a bad place to look, since it very frequently collects the opinions of renaissance critics whose remarks did _not_ appear in commentary format (or appeared in commentaries on other authors, e.g., Lipsius on Tacitus). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. David Wilson-Okamura (651) 696-6643 [EMAIL PROTECTED] English Dept., Macalester College, 1600 Grand Ave., St. Paul, MN 55105 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Feb 23 08:12:09 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:14:50 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id RAA16501; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:41:35 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:38:11 +0000 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Re: Dudas sobre ediciones de Virgilio en el Renacimiento. In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >> 2) Menciona un comentario de Prisciano al verso Bis patriae cecidere >manus. >>quin protinus omnia (6, 33), sin que hasta el momento haya localizado en la >>obra del gram�tico referencia a este verso. > >This I do not know. But please do not let my ignorance discourage others. Geymonat ad loc. cites 'Prisc. II, 10', which from the form of other references should mean book and chapter rather than volume and page of Hertz's edition in Keil's Grammatici Latini. Sorry, at half-past midnight I've no chance to check. > >> 3) Refiere la lectura que Poliziano y Pontano realizan del verso 8, >402 de >>la Eneida: Quod fieri ferro liquidove potest electro, pero no localizo ni en >>bibliotecas ni en Internet ninguna menci�n a alguna edici�n de la Eneida >>comentada por ellos. > >Poliziano wrote a commentary on the Georgics (which remained in manuscript >until very recently). To my knowledge, he did not write a commentary on the >Aeneid (though perhaps there were some lecture notes that will surface >someday). I am guessing, therefore, that this refers to a remark he made in >passing, in a book on another subject. In an ancient grammarian, we should understand 'Politian quoted by Pontanus' (cf. 'Probus et Sulpicius'); perhaps that's what is meant here too. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Feb 23 08:12:10 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:15:25 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id RAA18295; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:48:30 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:48:10 -0600 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Re: Dudas sobre ediciones de Virgilio en el Renacimiento. In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 04:06 PM 2/22/01 -0600, I wrote: >As for Pontano: I am assuming that this refers to the poet, Giovanni P. >(1426�1503). To my knowledge, he did not write a commentary on the Aeneid, >either. A few more notes on G. G. Pontano and Virgil: 1. He _did_ edit the text of Macrobius; I don't know if he also annotated it. If so, his comments on the _Saturnalia_ would be worth looking at. 2. According to the Columbia Concise Encyclopedia, Pontano also "discovered Donatus' commentary on Vergil." This I have not been able to confirm, and actually doubt. As best I can tell, the text of Tiberius Claudius Donatus was first abridged and then edited by Cristoforo Landino -- who dedicated his own Virgil commentary to Pietro de' Medici. The Medici connection is probably important with regard to the Donatus commentary, because Pietro acquired a Carolingian codex of the Donatus commentary -- apparently the first to surface in Italy (see Reynolds, ed., Texts and Transmission 157-58). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. David Wilson-Okamura (651) 696-6643 [EMAIL PROTECTED] English Dept., Macalester College, 1600 Grand Ave., St. Paul, MN 55105 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Feb 23 08:12:14 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:23:51 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id RAA21041; Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:57:09 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:56:51 -0600 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Re: Dudas sobre ediciones de Virgilio en el Renacimiento. In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 04:06 PM 2/22/01 -0600, I wrote: >As for Pontano: I am assuming that this refers to the poet, Giovanni P. >(1426�1503). To my knowledge, he did not write a commentary on the Aeneid, >either. Sorry, one more thing about Pontano (I knew I was forgetting something): Cosenza 4:2917 attributes to him some of the notes in _Vergilius opera omnia, cum notis Servii, Donati, Pontani, Farnabii, etc_ (Leiden, 1652). Considering the date, this is almost certainly Jacobus Pontanus (the German Jesuit), _not_ G. G. Pontani (the Italian poet and essayist). Farnabius, by the way, is Farnaby, the first author of a full-blown _commentary_ on Virgil's opera to come from England! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Feb 23 08:12:23 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 23 Feb 2001 05:39:04 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id DAA04492; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 03:44:34 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 05:43:57 -0500 (EST) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: back online Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 129 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 2/22/01 2:42:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << After about a month, we are back online. >> Yay! << I think, but cannot guarantee, that we have seen the last of the phantom "remove" requests. If it proves otherwise, please hold your fire. >> Will do...and in the meantime, thanks again for your hard work on this invaluable resource (Mantovano & virgil.org). :) Best, AJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Feb 23 08:12:32 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:15:31 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id GAA11189; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 06:37:54 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:07:49 -0330 (NST) From: James Butrica <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Dudas sobre ediciones de Virgilio en el Renacimiento. In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Estimados se�ores: > Soy profesor de Lat�n y actualmente realizo mi tesis doctoral sobre la >obra Lusus J. B. Evangelisti (poeta italiano del XVI). En ella aparecen >referencias a ediciones de la Eneida o comentarios de versos de Virgilio. >No encuentro demasiada informaci�n sobre las cuestiones que les remito a >continuaci�n: > > 1) Habla de Nicolaus Erythraeus como editor de la Eneida, pero no >logro localizar datos biogr�ficos sobre el mismo. > > 2) Menciona un comentario de Prisciano al verso Bis patriae cecidere >manus. quin protinus omnia (6, 33), sin que hasta el momento haya >localizado en la obra del gram�tico referencia a este verso. > > 3) Refiere la lectura que Poliziano y Pontano realizan del verso 8, >402 de la Eneida: Quod fieri ferro liquidove potest electro, pero no >localizo ni en bibliotecas ni en Internet ninguna menci�n a alguna edici�n >de la Eneida comentada por ellos. I wonder whether it would be worthwhile checking either Centuria of Miscellanea by Politianus to see whether the line is discussed there (I believe that the first was published during his lifetime, the second only in the 1970s). Another possibility is that the reference is to one of the numerous scholarly disputes in which Politianus was involved with his contemporaries, in which case the evidence might still be unpublished, though there might be some allusion to it in one of the early commentaries (pre-1500). As to Pontanus, if this is the 15th-century poet and not the later commentator, his observations on the line might be in one of his published scholarly works such as the "De aspiratione" (this one, for example, was still being cited by scholars in the eighteenth century, and it certainly contains emendations of Propertius), or it might be found in one of his popular "Dialogues" such as the "Actius," which quotes extensively from Virgil (I have a Latin/German edition of these here, but there is no index locorum). If it's a matter of an emendation by Pontano, that would probably have to await discovery of his own ms of Virgil (we have his copies of Propertius, Tibullus, Ovid's Amores, and the minor works of Tacitus), though it's equally possible for his conjectures to have circulated through collations, as they did for Propertius, Tibullus, and Catullus. > ¿Podr�an ayudarme en alguna de estas cuestiones? Se lo >agradecer�a infinitamente. Mi agradecimiento de antemano por su >colaboraci�n. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- To >leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, >send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe >mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also >unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub James Lawrence Peter Butrica Department of Classics Memorial University of Newfoundland St. John's, Newfoundland A1C 5S7 (709) 737-7914 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Feb 23 11:00:31 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:32:36 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id IAA02545; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:01:55 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:01:13 -0500 From: Rodger Friedman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Pontano on Virgil In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribers to this list would do well to read Giovanni Pontano's great dialogue, ACTIUS, a long discussion of Virgil's poetics with particular attention to questions of meter. In the course of that discussion, he does indeed mention the line singled out by Prof Mu�oz, but does not dilate much upon it. He uses it as an example of a rustling sound effect: "Videtur res sane ridicula, rara tamen et affabrefacta; subblanditur enim auribus quaedam quasi strepens litterarum inter se sive concursatio sive conflictatio, ac nonnunquam etiam syllabarum; quae vis ipsis potius inest consonantibus quam vocalibus quae syllabas eas ineunt; exemplum est: ... 'Quod fieri ferro..." (I dialoghi. A cura di carmelo Previtera. Firenze: Sansoni, 1943, p. 184). Cheers, Rodger Friedman Rare Book Studio, ABAA One Mystic Circle Tuxedo, NY� 10987 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rarebookstudio.com 845 351 5067 -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of James Butrica Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 8:38 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Dudas sobre ediciones de Virgilio en el Renacimiento. >Estimados se�ores: > Soy profesor de Lat�n y actualmente realizo mi tesis doctoral sobre la >obra Lusus J. B. Evangelisti (poeta italiano del XVI). En ella aparecen >referencias a ediciones de la Eneida o comentarios de versos de Virgilio. >No encuentro demasiada informaci�n sobre las cuestiones que les remito a >continuaci�n: > > 1) Habla de Nicolaus Erythraeus como editor de la Eneida, pero no >logro localizar datos biogr�ficos sobre el mismo. > > 2) Menciona un comentario de Prisciano al verso Bis patriae cecidere >manus. quin protinus omnia (6, 33), sin que hasta el momento haya >localizado en la obra del gram�tico referencia a este verso. > > 3) Refiere la lectura que Poliziano y Pontano realizan del verso 8, >402 de la Eneida: Quod fieri ferro liquidove potest electro, pero no >localizo ni en bibliotecas ni en Internet ninguna menci�n a alguna edici�n >de la Eneida comentada por ellos. I wonder whether it would be worthwhile checking either Centuria of Miscellanea by Politianus to see whether the line is discussed there (I believe that the first was published during his lifetime, the second only in the 1970s). Another possibility is that the reference is to one of the numerous scholarly disputes in which Politianus was involved with his contemporaries, in which case the evidence might still be unpublished, though there might be some allusion to it in one of the early commentaries (pre-1500). As to Pontanus, if this is the 15th-century poet and not the later commentator, his observations on the line might be in one of his published scholarly works such as the "De aspiratione" (this one, for example, was still being cited by scholars in the eighteenth century, and it certainly contains emendations of Propertius), or it might be found in one of his popular "Dialogues" such as the "Actius," which quotes extensively from Virgil (I have a Latin/German edition of these here, but there is no index locorum). If it's a matter of an emendation by Pontano, that would probably have to await discovery of his own ms of Virgil (we have his copies of Propertius, Tibullus, Ovid's Amores, and the minor works of Tacitus), though it's equally possible for his conjectures to have circulated through collations, as they did for Propertius, Tibullus, and Catullus. > ¿Podr�an ayudarme en alguna de estas cuestiones? Se lo >agradecer�a infinitamente. Mi agradecimiento de antemano por su >colaboraci�n. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- To >leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, >send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe >mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also >unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub James Lawrence Peter Butrica Department of Classics Memorial University of Newfoundland St. John's, Newfoundland A1C 5S7 (709) 737-7914 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Feb 23 15:19:10 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:54:30 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id NAA26618; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:03:10 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:05:29 +0100 From: Johan Hanselaer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: VIRGIL: Dudas sobre ediciones de Virgilio en el Renacimiento. In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_VfdJPhTyDxPKZVo0zrDTVQ)" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type> <META content="MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=930060115-23022001>Concerning N.Erythraeus you can find some biographical information in : Hoefer, Jean Chr�tien Ferdinand (ed.) Nouvelle biographie g�n�rale depuis les temps les plus recul�s jusqu'�<BR>nos jours, avec les renseignements bibliographiques etl'indication des sources � consulter; publi�e par MM Firmin Didot fr�res, sous la direction de M. Le Dr. Hoefer (Parijs, 1852-1866), 46 vols. vol. XVI, 327. Not in Maillard, "L'Europe des humanistes".</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=930060115-23022001>Probably the first Vergil edition with his name: VERGILIUS MARO Publius, Opera omnia. - Parijs: Bret, Guillaume le, 1537 <008744-1537-FPAR-K-01/00>. A copy of this edition in Paris BN Yc.5199(Catalogue s.v. Virgile n�s 111note & 108). His work was certainly printed until 1746 Vergil-edition P. Burmannus (Amsterdam, J. Wetstenius) (copies in London BL, Paris BN, and more than 100 others). Between 1537 en 1746 there are at least 40 editions with the work of Erythraeus.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=930060115-23022001>Concerning the scholia of Erythraeus, Schweiger II, 1160 writes the following: "Die Scholien of E. sind so zieml. werthlos; auch d. Ind. ist nicht sehr zu r�hmen."</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=930060115-23022001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=930060115-23022001>Johan Hanselaer<BR><BR></DIV></SPAN></FONT> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----<BR><B>Van:</B> [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<B>Namens </B>Emilio Canales Mu�oz (by way of David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>)<BR><B>Verzonden:</B> donderdag 22 februari 2001 22:43<BR><B>Aan:</B> [EMAIL PROTECTED]<BR><B>Onderwerp:</B> VIRGIL: Dudas sobre ediciones de Virgilio en el Renacimiento.<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>Estimados se�ores: <BR>Soy profesor de Lat�n y actualmente realizo mi tesis doctoral sobre la obra <I>Lusus </I>J. B. Evangelisti (poeta italiano del XVI). En ella aparecen referencias a ediciones de la <I>Eneida</I> o comentarios de versos de Virgilio. No encuentro demasiada informaci�n sobre las cuestiones que les remito a continuaci�n: <BR><BR>1) Habla de <B><U>Nicolaus Erythraeus</U> como editor de la <I>Eneida</I>, pero no logro localizar datos biogr�ficos sobre el mismo. <BR><BR>2) Menciona un comentario de </B><U>Prisciano</U> al verso <I>Bis patriae cecidere manus. quin protinus omnia</I> (6, 33), sin que hasta el momento haya localizado en la obra del gram�tico referencia a este verso. <BR><BR>3) Refiere la lectura que <B><U>Poliziano y Pontano</U> realizan del verso 8, 402 de la <I>Eneida: Quod fieri ferro liquidove potest electro</I>, pero no localizo ni en bibliotecas ni en Internet ninguna menci�n a alguna edici�n de la <I>Eneida </I>comentada por ellos. <BR><BR>&iquest;Podr�an ayudarme en alguna de estas cuestiones? Se lo agradecer�a infinitamente. Mi agradecimiento de antemano por su colaboraci�n. </B>----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Feb 24 13:57:20 2001 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:55:59 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id HAA26860; Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:06:50 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:05:31 +0000 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Priscian Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sorry, it was late at night; the Priscianic reference was to perl-/vs. pell- in verse 34. Priscian does not discuss Aen. 6. 33; but there is a discussion found both in 'Victorinus', Grammatici Latini vi. 212-13 Keil, and in Audax's excerpts, vii. 339-340. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Feb 25 14:24:16 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 25 Feb 2001 05:02:49 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id DAA15520; Sun, 25 Feb 2001 03:33:36 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 10:21:58 +0000 From: Helen Conrad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Priscian In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630) X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] The mention to Priscian leadsme to recall that I have not seen any mention on Mantovano to Rijcklof Hofman's The Sankt Gall Priscian CommentaryVol. 1: Introduction; Book1-5 and Vol. 2: Translation and Commentary; Indices. (Nodus Publikationen: Munster, 1996) Anyone interested in the early medieval reception of Vergil and the grammatical tradition will spend many happy hours with it! The Indices are quite wonderful. Helen COB > From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:05:31 +0000 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: VIRGIL: Priscian > > Sorry, it was late at night; the Priscianic reference was to perl-/vs. > pell- in verse 34. Priscian does not discuss Aen. 6. 33; but there is a > discussion found both in 'Victorinus', Grammatici Latini vi. 212-13 > Keil, and in Audax's excerpts, vii. 339-340. Leofranc Holford-Strevens > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens > 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone > Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? > OX2 6EJ > > tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) > > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Mar 03 11:57:41 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 3 Mar 2001 09:50:37 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id IAA21821; Sat, 03 Mar 2001 08:16:27 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 15:13:27 +0000 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Priscian In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Helen, How goes the book? Best wishes Leofranc In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Helen Conrad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >The mention to Priscian leadsme to recall that I have not seen any mention >on Mantovano to Rijcklof Hofman's The Sankt Gall Priscian CommentaryVol. 1: >Introduction; Book1-5 and Vol. 2: Translation and Commentary; Indices. >(Nodus Publikationen: Munster, 1996) >Anyone interested in the early medieval reception of Vergil and the >grammatical tradition will spend many happy hours with it! >The Indices are quite wonderful. >Helen COB > >> *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Mar 03 11:57:44 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 3 Mar 2001 10:24:50 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id IAA01140; Sat, 03 Mar 2001 08:57:59 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 15:47:20 +0000 From: Helen Conrad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Priscian In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630) X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Leofranc, Trying to bring bibliography upto date while beginning the editing process for the Vulgate book - hope to spend a solid week on it over the vac coming up this month. Your quilt is progressing a good deal better. Helen > From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 15:13:27 +0000 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Priscian > > Dear Helen, > > How goes the book? > > Best wishes > > Leofranc > > In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Helen Conrad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > writes >> The mention to Priscian leadsme to recall that I have not seen any mention >> on Mantovano to Rijcklof Hofman's The Sankt Gall Priscian CommentaryVol. 1: >> Introduction; Book1-5 and Vol. 2: Translation and Commentary; Indices. >> (Nodus Publikationen: Munster, 1996) >> Anyone interested in the early medieval reception of Vergil and the >> grammatical tradition will spend many happy hours with it! >> The Indices are quite wonderful. >> Helen COB >> >>> > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens > 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone > Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? > OX2 6EJ > > tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) > > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Mar 04 12:32:16 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 3 Mar 2001 16:18:11 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id OAA29589; Sat, 03 Mar 2001 14:40:34 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:29:49 +0000 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Priscian In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Helen Conrad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >Dear Leofranc, >Trying to bring bibliography upto date while beginning the editing process >for the Vulgate book - hope to spend a solid week on it over the vac coming >up this month. Good luck! >Your quilt is progressing a good deal better. Thank you very much! Best wishes Leofranc *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Mar 04 12:32:24 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 4 Mar 2001 05:10:44 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id DAA11630; Sun, 04 Mar 2001 03:21:39 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 10:11:08 +0000 From: Helen Conrad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Priscian In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630) X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] I hope you all will forgive me for accidently posting a private message on the line. Helen COB ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Mar 04 17:27:37 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:45:44 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id MAA03356; Sun, 04 Mar 2001 12:52:57 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 12:51:05 -0600 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Geo. illustrations in Codex Romanus (Vat. lat. 3867) Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] << message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >> Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 00:35:46 +0000 From: Roza Passos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: new Virgil material Dear David Wilson-Okamura i am writing to ask if your mailing list is the appropriate forum for my enquiries. i am writing a dissertation at the Australian National University about early illustrated books and their place in the history of art. one of the key works i examine is the fourth-fifth century Vergilius Romanus (Vat. lat. 3867), in particular, the illustrations for Georgics III on folios 44v and 45r. i am trying to source any references pertaining to these illustrations. i have found a few, but aside from the work of David H. Wright on the manuscript, they are quite old. i was hoping to ask your subscribers if they are aware of new material or current studies on the illustrations of this manuscript. Roza Passos School of Art History and Visual Studies Australian National University Canberra ACT 0200 A U S T R A L I A [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Mar 07 22:21:41 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:41:19 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id RAA22215; Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:33:51 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:32:28 +0000 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Geo. illustrations in Codex Romanus (Vat. lat. 3867) In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:11:02 +0000 >From: Helen Conrad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Dear Mr. Passos, > > For Vergilian material from Roman Britain, >however, see Barrett (1978). Barrett demolishes the association of an early >coin issue of Carausius with A II. 282-3. After demolition, reconstruction: I copy in a Mantovano item I had stored. >Subject: VIRGIL: THE ECLOGUES AND CARAUSIUS >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (NCA SOUND BH) >Date: 07 Jul 97 15:51:03 GMT >Members of the Virgil disussion group may be interested to learn of the >following discovery by myself which will appear in the British magazine >Current Archaeology and subsequently the Numismatic Chronicle from the >British Museum. >The Romano-British rebel emperor Carausius (286-93) issued a series of >silver coins bearing the cryptic exergue legend RSR. This has long >thought, but with no evidence, to mean Rationalis Summae Rei, i.e. >finance minister. This would have no precedent on Roman coinage. >RSR appears also on a unique medallion of Carausius at the British >Museum. A further medallion bears the exergue legend I.N.P.C.D.A. >My observation, and I seem to be the first to make it, is that these >letters represent Eclogues iv.6-7, redeunt Saturnia regna, Iam nova >progenies caelo demitittur alto. It entirely fits the Carausian myth of >a messianic rebirth of Roman virtues. He also issued a silver coin with >Expectate. Veni in full on it (Aeneid II), but this has long been >known. >This seems to be a fascinating example of Virgilian texts being >utilised by a rebellious British emperor to bolster his image of >legitimacy at the beginning of late antiquity. >For more information contact: G de la Bedoyere. UK 01144-181-850-9241 >or on this e-mail address Dr de la Bedoyere has, I believe, published more on the topic. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Mar 07 10:49:19 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:04:29 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id HAA24404; Wed, 07 Mar 2001 07:55:27 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 08:52:48 -0600 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Geo. illustrations in Codex Romanus (Vat. lat. 3867) Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] << message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:11:02 +0000 From: Helen Conrad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Dear Mr. Passos, Perhaps this may be some help: It has been suggested that this manuscript may have been written in Britain, against this see, however, Rosenthal (1972). Most of the peculiarities of the script and punctuation can be paralleled in both Gaulic and British epigraphy of the Late and sub-Roman period. Dark (1984, 186-7), summarising the material which might localise the manuscript in Roman or sub-Roman Britain writes: 'The only possibly distinctive palaeographical feature, for which a close analogy can be found, is the characteristic upward flourish of the letters. This is attested in Romano-British inscriptions and in our earliest Insular manuscript, the Cathach of St. Columba. ... one of the few substantial non-epigraphic bodies of late Romano-British handwriting - the 12,000 'curse tablets' from Bath - contains a script similar (although much more carelessly executed) to that of the Vergilius Romanus.' Dark may be overstating his case, see Tomlin (1988, especially at page 87, tablets 8 and 9). It is, however, the illuminations which are most suggestive of a British connection. The strongly linear drapery is paralleled in Romano-British mosaics and paintings. There is also a characteristic placement of the feet of seated figures which while not paralleled in Gallo-Roman art is found in Insular manuscripts like the Lindisfarne Gospels. The manuscript's characteristic elongated faces with almond eyes and slit-like mouths are also found in Insular art. Henig (1979, 1995) suggests that there was a fashion for Vergil based decorations in Roman Britain generally unobservable in the rest of the north western empire and or even Italy itself. For Vergilian material from Roman Britain, however, see Barrett (1978). Barrett demolishes the association of an early coin issue of Carausius with A II. 282-3. He also catalogues and discusses the frigidarium floor mosaic at Low Ham, Somerset which depict scenes from A 1 and 4. It is possible that the pictorial programme of this mosaic may have been part of a craftsman's pattern book and might have been chosen purely for its visual effect rather than the literary allusion. Otford, Kent has produced fragments of a fourth century wall painting of the body and arm of a man brandishing a spear. Accompanying the scene are the words 'bina manu L ...' which Barrett believes to be the first part of 'bina manu lato crispans hastalia ferro' (A 1.313 and XII.165). A mosaic found at Frampton, Dorset, but preserved only in a drawing, contained a scene involving Aeneas and the Golden Bough from the A VI. Perhaps the most interesting example of art having reference to Vergil is a triclinium floor from Lullingstone, Kent which Barrett suggests has significant implications for the intellectual and cultural life of Roman Britain. The floor depicts Europa and the Bull with an inscription: INVIDA SI TA(URI) VIDISSET IUNO NATATUS IUSTIUS AEOLIAS ISSET ADUSQUE DOMOS, which is an apparent reference to A I and Juno's visit to the home of the winds and demonstrates an excellent knowledge of the Ovidian elegiac couplet. Barrett (313) ends his article with a balanced appraisal of the evidence: allusions to Roman literature are not at all numerous in Roman Britain and not all of them offer valid evidence of a general familiarity with the classical writers. However, the evidence of three of the sites, Frampton, Otford and Lullingstone, suggests a fair acquaintance with the text of Vergil, and indicates, in addition, a close familiar poems of Ovid. Note Hofman (1988, 200, 203, and also note 77) on a gloss in the St. Gaul Priscian on A V. 136-7 containing an error 'confidunt rastris' (recte 'considunt transtris') which he suggests may be connected with the reading 'trastris' in Romanus. If this is of any use to you, I can send you the expansions of the bibliographical references. Helen Conrad-O'Briain ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Mar 07 22:22:28 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 7 Mar 2001 21:11:50 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id TAA04058; Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:54:27 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:54:24 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Virgilian Tips for Italian Tour? In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] As a long-time leader of Great Books discussions on Virgil's Aeneid (in Mandelbaum's translation), I'd be interested in hearing about Virgil-related sites (or sights) to add to the itinerary of my first trip to Italy (planned for late June and early July). For instance, I definitely want to visit Cumae, but it's hard to find out much of literary interest from the usual tourist guidebooks. Any suggestions? Chris Miller Collegiate Seminar Program Saint Mary's College of California __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Mar 08 09:29:38 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 8 Mar 2001 04:11:51 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id CAA22660; Thu, 08 Mar 2001 02:29:06 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:14:55 +0000 From: Helen Conrad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Geo. illustrations in Codex Romanus (Vat. lat. 3867) In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630) X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Leofranc, A useful item for more than just Mr. Passos! Helen COB > From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 00:32:28 +0000 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Geo. illustrations in Codex Romanus (Vat. lat. 3867) > >> Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:11:02 +0000 >> From: Helen Conrad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> Dear Mr. Passos, >> > >> For Vergilian material from Roman Britain, >> however, see Barrett (1978). Barrett demolishes the association of an early >> coin issue of Carausius with A II. 282-3. > > > After demolition, reconstruction: I copy in a Mantovano item I had > stored. > >> Subject: VIRGIL: THE ECLOGUES AND CARAUSIUS >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (NCA SOUND BH) >> Date: 07 Jul 97 15:51:03 GMT > >> Members of the Virgil disussion group may be interested to learn of the >> following discovery by myself which will appear in the British magazine >> Current Archaeology and subsequently the Numismatic Chronicle from the >> British Museum. > >> The Romano-British rebel emperor Carausius (286-93) issued a series of >> silver coins bearing the cryptic exergue legend RSR. This has long >> thought, but with no evidence, to mean Rationalis Summae Rei, i.e. >> finance minister. This would have no precedent on Roman coinage. > >> RSR appears also on a unique medallion of Carausius at the British >> Museum. A further medallion bears the exergue legend I.N.P.C.D.A. > >> My observation, and I seem to be the first to make it, is that these >> letters represent Eclogues iv.6-7, redeunt Saturnia regna, Iam nova >> progenies caelo demitittur alto. It entirely fits the Carausian myth of >> a messianic rebirth of Roman virtues. He also issued a silver coin with >> Expectate. Veni in full on it (Aeneid II), but this has long been >> known. > >> This seems to be a fascinating example of Virgilian texts being >> utilised by a rebellious British emperor to bolster his image of >> legitimacy at the beginning of late antiquity. > >> For more information contact: G de la Bedoyere. UK 01144-181-850-9241 >> or on this e-mail address > > Dr de la Bedoyere has, I believe, published more on the topic. > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens > 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone > Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? > OX2 6EJ > > tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) > > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Mar 09 09:14:42 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:22:33 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id LAA16580; Thu, 08 Mar 2001 11:37:39 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 18:21:45 +0000 From: Helen Conrad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Virgilian Tips for Italian Tour? In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630) X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] 'I have an admittedly old guidebook published by the Italian govenment, 'The Phlegraean Fields from Virgil's Tomb to the Grotto of the Cumaean Sibyl' by Amedeo Maiuri, trans. V. Priestly which discusses the sites connected with Vergil in the area in great detail. You might also look at Highet's Poet's in a Landscape for ideas. You should contact the nearest Italian consulate or the embassy in Washington. The Italian tourist agency produces a number of remarkably good specialist brochures, and I would be very surprised if they do not have an updated version of the Phlegraean Fields available, as well as literature on the area around Mantua etc. . Helen COB. > From: Chris Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 18:54:24 -0800 (PST) > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: VIRGIL: Virgilian Tips for Italian Tour? > > As a long-time leader of Great Books discussions on > Virgil's Aeneid (in Mandelbaum's translation), I'd be > interested in hearing about Virgil-related sites (or > sights) to add to the itinerary of my first trip to > Italy (planned for late June and early July). For > instance, I definitely want to visit Cumae, but it's > hard to find out much of literary interest from the > usual tourist guidebooks. Any suggestions? > > Chris Miller > Collegiate Seminar Program > Saint Mary's College of California > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Mar 09 09:14:46 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:39:43 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id MAA26636; Thu, 08 Mar 2001 12:10:09 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 13:10:06 -0600 (CST) From: Virgilio Cervantes Perez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Virgil What does mean? In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Hola! Espero que sea el lugar correcto, he buscado el significado del nombre Virgilio, y no he encontrado una respuesta correcta, en algunos lugares note que mencionand, que el significado del nombre se perdio a lo largo de la historia. quien me puede decir cual es el significado correo, y toda la etimologia si es que existe. Gracias. Virgilio Cervantes Perez PD. El interes es obvio. =) Saludos. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Obtenga su direcci�n de correo-e gratis @yahoo.com en http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Mar 09 10:45:37 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:19:51 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id IAA27733; Fri, 09 Mar 2001 08:39:15 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:38:57 -0600 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Virgil What does mean? In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 01:10 PM 3/8/01 -0600, Virgilio Cervantes Perez wrote: >Espero que sea el lugar correcto, he buscado el >significado del nombre Virgilio, y no he >encontrado una respuesta correcta, en algunos >lugares note que mencionand, que el significado >del nombre se perdio a lo largo de la historia. >quien me puede decir cual es el significado >correo, y toda la etimologia si es que existe. According to the oldest biography of Virgil, the poet's mother gave birth to a laurel branch in a dream; shortly thereafter, she gave birth to a son in real life, and named him after the branch (Latin "virgula"). I suppose what we really want to know is "Who else was naming children Virgil in this period?" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. David Wilson-Okamura (651) 696-6643 [EMAIL PROTECTED] English Dept., Macalester College, 1600 Grand Ave., St. Paul, MN 55105 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Mar 10 09:28:55 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 10 Mar 2001 04:06:06 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id CAA01771; Sat, 10 Mar 2001 02:42:10 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:38:57 -0600 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Virgil What does mean? In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 01:10 PM 3/8/01 -0600, Virgilio Cervantes Perez wrote: >Espero que sea el lugar correcto, he buscado el >significado del nombre Virgilio, y no he >encontrado una respuesta correcta, en algunos >lugares note que mencionand, que el significado >del nombre se perdio a lo largo de la historia. >quien me puede decir cual es el significado >correo, y toda la etimologia si es que existe. According to the oldest biography of Virgil, the poet's mother gave birth to a laurel branch in a dream; shortly thereafter, she gave birth to a son in real life, and named him after the branch (Latin "virgula"). I suppose what we really want to know is "Who else was naming children Virgil in this period?" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. David Wilson-Okamura (651) 696-6643 [EMAIL PROTECTED] English Dept., Macalester College, 1600 Grand Ave., St. Paul, MN 55105 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Mar 09 11:09:49 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:09:34 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id JAA14019; Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:30:58 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:30:50 -0600 (CST) From: Virgilio Cervantes Perez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Virgil What does mean? In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Then.. my name means "after the branch"? and why i found some referens to vergilius? how can make a progresion of name virgilula makes virgilio in spanish virgilio makes virgil in english? and vergilius? who else was naming chindren virgil? intesant point... mantovano is first point i guess. somebody have more ideas? Tanks!! David! PD. Sorry for my languaje. En realidad yo hablo espa�ol. > According to the oldest biography of Virgil, > the poet's mother gave birth > to a laurel branch in a dream; shortly > thereafter, she gave birth to a son > in real life, and named him after the branch > (Latin "virgula"). > > I suppose what we really want to know is "Who > else was naming children > Virgil in this period?" > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dr. David Wilson-Okamura (651) 696-6643 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > English Dept., Macalester College, 1600 Grand > Ave., St. Paul, MN 55105 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any > time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting > the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Obtenga su direcci�n de correo-e gratis @yahoo.com en http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Mar 09 12:16:56 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:11:41 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id JAA19999; Fri, 09 Mar 2001 09:47:46 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 13:17:32 -0330 (NST) From: James Butrica <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Virgil What does mean? In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] >At 01:10 PM 3/8/01 -0600, Virgilio Cervantes Perez wrote: >>Espero que sea el lugar correcto, he buscado el >>significado del nombre Virgilio, y no he >>encontrado una respuesta correcta, en algunos >>lugares note que mencionand, que el significado >>del nombre se perdio a lo largo de la historia. >>quien me puede decir cual es el significado >>correo, y toda la etimologia si es que existe. > >According to the oldest biography of Virgil, the poet's mother gave birth >to a laurel branch in a dream; shortly thereafter, she gave birth to a son >in real life, and named him after the branch (Latin "virgula"). > >I suppose what we really want to know is "Who else was naming children >Virgil in this period?" > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Dr. David Wilson-Okamura (651) 696-6643 [EMAIL PROTECTED] >English Dept., Macalester College, 1600 Grand Ave., St. Paul, MN 55105 >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub But if his name was P. Vergilius Maro, then his name was Vergilius whatever his mother wanted to call him. To put it another way: if his mother came up with the name "Vergilius," then what was his father's name? James Lawrence Peter Butrica Department of Classics Memorial University of Newfoundland St. John's, Newfoundland A1C 5S7 (709) 737-7914 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Mar 09 12:17:07 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:38:54 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id KAA27656; Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:11:29 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 11:11:15 -0600 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Virgil What does mean? Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] << message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >> Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:10:07 +0100 From: Robert Dyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Virgil What does mean? In France, my second son has two friends in his class, Virgile and Marc-Aur�le. But then his brother is called Claude. Virgile is a reasonably common name here and I have never thought to ask a parent if they were thinking of laurel trees. Of course, as Virgil's gentilicium it could under no circumstances have been given to him by his mother, except in the sense that she married a man of that name. Rob Dyer Paris, France ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Mar 12 06:59:16 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:11:43 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id OAA03377; Sun, 11 Mar 2001 14:22:14 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:21:42 +0000 (GMT) From: M W Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Palinurus, Epicurus Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Palinurus' descent into the deep ocean seems to form an important parallel to Aeneas' descent into the deep earth: both experiences feature a bough. May I seek opinions about whether the Palinurus episode is open to a naturalistic, Epicurean explanation and mention that my own preferred, dithering answer is Yes and No. The scattering from the bough of the soporific drops on Palinurus' eyes seems to be an element of the dreams or near-dreams which come to him in his weary state. But the drug needs also to be real for the narrative to make sense: Palinurus' strong mental resolve could not be overcome otherwise. (Lucretius uses the evident power of drugs over the mind as an argument for the mind's having a physical nature, so a known Epicurean theme is in play.) It seems to me that the only way to reconcile the ideas a) that he dreams of being drugged and b) that he is drugged is an Epicurean way: he has been taking drugs, presumably in order to keep awake, and he is now experiencing (as drug-takers do) a reversal of the desired effect, so that his professional concentration vanishes into dreams. It is also an Epicurean theme that one thing dies so that another may live, and V uses this idea in the conversation between Neptune and Venus, giving it non-Epicurean significance. (There is always something subversive to the philosophy concerned about V's use of philosophical ideas, I think.) The accident which befalls Palinurus, striking Aeneas as an inexplicable lapse of professional judgement, is really an act of divine providence, though why divine providence takes this form is another, exceptionally disturbing, question. I think V means to tell us that the Epicureans can show that events are accidents, or have natural explanations, till they are blue in the face and can even be convincing, but still can't give us the full meaning of the events they describe. The pattern of the Book VII dreams and supernatural visitations, I'd like to argue, is that there is always an Epicurean naturalistic explanation which both fits quite well and is entirely inadequate. (In Turnus' dream, Allecto impersonates Calybe: but the real Calybe, doubtless an outspoken anti-Trojan and believer (from her Mars-related name) in military solutions to political problems, must influence the dream's content.) - Martin Hughes ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Mar 12 06:59:24 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 12 Mar 2001 04:07:52 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id CAA12261; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 02:27:29 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:55:30 +0000 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Palinurus, Epicurus In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <Pine.GSO.3.95-960729.1010126151603.1542B- [EMAIL PROTECTED]>, M W Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >Palinurus' descent into the deep ocean seems to form an important parallel >to Aeneas' descent into the deep earth: both experiences feature a bough. >May I seek opinions about whether the Palinurus episode is open to a >naturalistic, Epicurean explanation and mention that my own preferred, >dithering answer is Yes and No. Do yourself justice. A dithering answer would be 'either yes or no, I can't make up my mind'; your answer is dialectical. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Mar 12 13:11:10 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:05:13 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id LAA05111; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:24:28 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:23:54 +0000 From: Wolfi Kofler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Palinurus, Epicurus Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed Precedence: bulk X-Originating-IP: [138.232.124.38] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Mar 2001 18:23:54.0499 (UTC) FILETIME=[985EBD30:01C0AB21] X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] >From: M W Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: VIRGIL: Palinurus, Epicurus >Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:21:42 +0000 (GMT) > >Palinurus' descent into the deep ocean seems to form an important parallel >to Aeneas' descent into the deep earth: both experiences feature a bough. >May I seek opinions about whether the Palinurus episode is open to a >naturalistic, Epicurean explanation and mention that my own preferred, >dithering answer is Yes and No. The scattering from the bough of the >soporific drops on Palinurus' eyes seems to be an element of the dreams or >near-dreams which come to him in his weary state. But the drug needs also >to be real for the narrative to make sense: Palinurus' strong mental >resolve could not be overcome otherwise. (Lucretius uses the evident power >of drugs over the mind as an argument for the mind's having a physical >nature, so a known Epicurean theme is in play.) It seems to me that the >only way to reconcile the ideas a) that he dreams of being drugged and >b) that he is drugged is an Epicurean way: he has been taking drugs, >presumably in order to keep awake, and he is now experiencing (as >drug-takers do) a reversal of the desired effect, so that his professional >concentration vanishes into dreams. It is also an Epicurean theme that >one thing dies so that another may live, and V uses this idea in the >conversation between Neptune and Venus, giving it non-Epicurean >significance. (There is always something subversive to the philosophy >concerned about V's use of philosophical ideas, I think.) The accident >which befalls Palinurus, striking Aeneas as an inexplicable lapse of >professional judgement, is really an act of divine providence, though why >divine providence takes this form is another, exceptionally disturbing, >question. I think V means to tell us that the Epicureans can show that >events are accidents, or have natural explanations, till they are blue in >the face and can even be convincing, but still can't give us the full >meaning of the events they describe. The pattern of the Book VII dreams >and supernatural visitations, I'd like to argue, is that there is always >an Epicurean naturalistic explanation which both fits quite well and is >entirely inadequate. (In Turnus' dream, Allecto impersonates Calybe: >but the real Calybe, doubtless an outspoken anti-Trojan and believer (from >her Mars-related name) in military solutions to political problems, must >influence the dream's content.) - Martin Hughes > your reasoning does not seem to us clear in every respect, but there may be some truth in it. at any rate, palinurus has an antecedent, elpenor, who dies because of his abuse of a drug - alcohol. in fact, "palinurus" is nearly an anagramm of "elpenor". with kind regards, wolfi kofler and martin korenjak _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Mar 12 15:29:17 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:44:35 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id MAA18875; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:11:26 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:11:01 -0600 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Palinurus, Epicurus In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 09:21 PM 3/11/01 +0000, M W Hughes writes: >>Palinurus' descent into the deep ocean seems to form an important parallel >>to Aeneas' descent into the deep earth: both experiences feature a bough. >>May I seek opinions about whether the Palinurus episode is open to a >>naturalistic, Epicurean explanation and mention that my own preferred, >>dithering answer is Yes and No. At 12:55 AM 3/12/01 +0000, Leofranc Holford-Strevens replies: >Do yourself justice. A dithering answer would be 'either yes or no, I >can't make up my mind'; your answer is dialectical. -- and hits, as usual, the nail on the head. May I follow up on the suggested parallel with the katabasis in book 6? We have talked, in the past, about the gates of ivory, and in the past I have defended the philosophical/allegorical interpretation of Servius: i.e., the ivory gate exit is a way of denying the literal truth of the underworld descent. I still find this explanation attractive. However, Servius also offers a second reading of the gate, one that is not at all inimical to the anti-Augustan reading favored by most of my compatriots: Ea vero quae supra fortunam sunt et habent nimium ornatum vanamque iactantiam dicunt falsa esse: unde eburnea, quasi ornatior porta, fingitur falsa. According to this second reading, Virgil sends Aeneas out through the horn gate because horn is a glamorous material and this is a glamorous dream: flashy, boastful, but basically unrealistic; these are dreams in which expectations exceed possibilities. Note that this is not the same thing as saying that the dream of Empire is really a nightmare (which is how some people want to read "falsa...insomina"). It might mean that Aeneas is getting delusions of grandeur at this point, although I don't think that this is really consistent with the way that Virgil presents us to him over the course of the poem. It's more likely, I think, to mean that the reality of Rome will always be messier than the dream of Rome. (I realize that Feeney -- and probably others, as well -- think the dream is pretty messy, too.) Of course, this revelation needn't damn the whole enterprise. The Aeneid, as I told a group of my students last week, is a poem for grown-ups. "No man who has once read it with full perception remains an adolescent." That the poem ends as it does is hardly unexpected; the challenge, rather, was to make the conclusion astonishing -- and in that, of course, Virgil has succeeded. Not that is very hard to shock a modern audience -- where rules multiply, so do the opportunities for transgression. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Mar 13 10:25:44 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:51:29 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id GAA27793; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 06:48:55 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:11:01 -0600 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Palinurus, Epicurus In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 09:21 PM 3/11/01 +0000, M W Hughes writes: >>Palinurus' descent into the deep ocean seems to form an important parallel >>to Aeneas' descent into the deep earth: both experiences feature a bough. >>May I seek opinions about whether the Palinurus episode is open to a >>naturalistic, Epicurean explanation and mention that my own preferred, >>dithering answer is Yes and No. At 12:55 AM 3/12/01 +0000, Leofranc Holford-Strevens replies: >Do yourself justice. A dithering answer would be 'either yes or no, I >can't make up my mind'; your answer is dialectical. -- and hits, as usual, the nail on the head. May I follow up on the suggested parallel with the katabasis in book 6? We have talked, in the past, about the gates of ivory, and in the past I have defended the philosophical/allegorical interpretation of Servius: i.e., the ivory gate exit is a way of denying the literal truth of the underworld descent. I still find this explanation attractive. However, Servius also offers a second reading of the gate, one that is not at all inimical to the anti-Augustan reading favored by most of my compatriots: Ea vero quae supra fortunam sunt et habent nimium ornatum vanamque iactantiam dicunt falsa esse: unde eburnea, quasi ornatior porta, fingitur falsa. According to this second reading, Virgil sends Aeneas out through the horn gate because horn is a glamorous material and this is a glamorous dream: flashy, boastful, but basically unrealistic; these are dreams in which expectations exceed possibilities. Note that this is not the same thing as saying that the dream of Empire is really a nightmare (which is how some people want to read "falsa...insomina"). It might mean that Aeneas is getting delusions of grandeur at this point, although I don't think that this is really consistent with the way that Virgil presents us to him over the course of the poem. It's more likely, I think, to mean that the reality of Rome will always be messier than the dream of Rome. (I realize that Feeney -- and probably others, as well -- think the dream is pretty messy, too.) Of course, this revelation needn't damn the whole enterprise. The Aeneid, as I told a group of my students last week, is a poem for grown-ups. "No man who has once read it with full perception remains an adolescent." That the poem ends as it does is hardly unexpected; the challenge, rather, was to make the conclusion astonishing -- and in that, of course, Virgil has succeeded. Not that is very hard to shock a modern audience -- where rules multiply, so do the opportunities for transgression. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Mar 12 16:36:26 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:57:28 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id OAA01234; Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:24:39 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:23:24 +0000 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Virgil What does mean? In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Virgilio Cervantes Perez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >Hola! >Espero que sea el lugar correcto, he buscado el >significado del nombre Virgilio, y no he >encontrado una respuesta correcta, en algunos >lugares note que mencionand, que el significado >del nombre se perdio a lo largo de la historia. >quien me puede decir cual es el significado >correo, y toda la etimologia si es que existe. The correct form of the name is not Virgilius but Vergilius; however, the etymology is unknown. Some have argued for a Gaulish origin, but Wilhelm Schulze, _Zur Geschichte lateinischer Eigennamen_ (Abhandlungen der k�niglichen Gesellschaft der Wissenschaften zu G�ttingen, philologisch-historische Klasse, Neue Folge V, Nr. 5; Berlin, 1904, repr. 1933), pp. 100-101, citing it from various inscriptions in Etruria, relates it to the Etruscan gentilician name vercna, also Latinized as Verginna and Verginius. However, he does not suggest a meaning. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Mar 15 09:35:57 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 15 Mar 2001 05:28:06 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id DAA18975; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 03:49:29 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 02:48:42 -0800 From: anXiety forever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Focalization in the Eneid Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: binary Precedence: bulk X-Originating-Ip: [195.67.33.120] X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Have some thoughts about the "focalization" (a better word for 'point of view') in the Eneid. Does anyone know where I can find what other people think about this? Any books about Virgil who concider this? The only book I know is Brooks Otis "Virgil: a study in civilized poetry" from the 60's who talk about "extern" and "intern" focalization. /Andreas "there are no enemies only dangerous friends" B Corgan ------------------------------------------------------------ Kent Mail rockar! http://www.kent.nu ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Mar 16 10:43:39 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:24:24 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id UAA15589; Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:51:32 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:52:12 +1000 From: roche73 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Silius Italicus Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C0ADBB.B8420D40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type> <META content="MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Hello </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"> - Do list members know of any commentaries on the Punica published in English?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"> - What's the best introduction to Silius' work (aside from Hardie 1993)?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Any other help/advice to do with this work would be appreciated.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">P. A. Roche</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Mar 16 13:23:36 2001 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:32:52 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id KAA24345; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:14:29 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:13:20 -0600 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Focalization in the Aeneid In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 02:48 AM 3/15/01 -0800, Andreas wrote: >Have some thoughts about the "focalization" (a better word for 'point of view') >in the Aeneid. Does anyone know where I can find what other people think about >this? Any books about Virgil who concider this? The only book I know is Brooks >Otis "Virgil: a study in civilized poetry" from the 60's who talk about >"extern" and "intern" focalization. Have a look at: Fowler, Don. "Deviant Focalisation in Virgil's Aeneid." Proceedings of the Cambridge Philological Society n.s. 36 (1990): 42-63. -----. "Narrate and Describe: The Problem of Ekphrasis." Journal of Roman Studies 81 (1991): 25-35. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. David Wilson-Okamura (651) 696-6643 [EMAIL PROTECTED] English Dept., Macalester College, 1600 Grand Ave., St. Paul, MN 55105 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Mar 16 13:23:36 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:32:49 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id LAA08328; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:02:31 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:02:26 +0000 (GMT) From: M W Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Palinurus, Epicurus In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks for anagram and reference to alcohol! Have you time to tell me where my reasoning needs to be clarified? - Martin On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Wolfi Kofler wrote: > > > > >From: M W Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: VIRGIL: Palinurus, Epicurus > >Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:21:42 +0000 (GMT) > > > >Palinurus' descent into the deep ocean seems to form an important parallel > >to Aeneas' descent into the deep earth: both experiences feature a bough. > >May I seek opinions about whether the Palinurus episode is open to a > >naturalistic, Epicurean explanation and mention that my own preferred, > >dithering answer is Yes and No. The scattering from the bough of the > >soporific drops on Palinurus' eyes seems to be an element of the dreams or > >near-dreams which come to him in his weary state. But the drug needs also > >to be real for the narrative to make sense: Palinurus' strong mental > >resolve could not be overcome otherwise. (Lucretius uses the evident power > >of drugs over the mind as an argument for the mind's having a physical > >nature, so a known Epicurean theme is in play.) It seems to me that the > >only way to reconcile the ideas a) that he dreams of being drugged and > >b) that he is drugged is an Epicurean way: he has been taking drugs, > >presumably in order to keep awake, and he is now experiencing (as > >drug-takers do) a reversal of the desired effect, so that his professional > >concentration vanishes into dreams. It is also an Epicurean theme that > >one thing dies so that another may live, and V uses this idea in the > >conversation between Neptune and Venus, giving it non-Epicurean > >significance. (There is always something subversive to the philosophy > >concerned about V's use of philosophical ideas, I think.) The accident > >which befalls Palinurus, striking Aeneas as an inexplicable lapse of > >professional judgement, is really an act of divine providence, though why > >divine providence takes this form is another, exceptionally disturbing, > >question. I think V means to tell us that the Epicureans can show that > >events are accidents, or have natural explanations, till they are blue in > >the face and can even be convincing, but still can't give us the full > >meaning of the events they describe. The pattern of the Book VII dreams > >and supernatural visitations, I'd like to argue, is that there is always > >an Epicurean naturalistic explanation which both fits quite well and is > >entirely inadequate. (In Turnus' dream, Allecto impersonates Calybe: > >but the real Calybe, doubtless an outspoken anti-Trojan and believer (from > >her Mars-related name) in military solutions to political problems, must > >influence the dream's content.) - Martin Hughes > > > > > your reasoning does not seem to us clear in every respect, but there may be > some truth in it. at any rate, palinurus has an antecedent, elpenor, who > dies because of his abuse of a drug - alcohol. in fact, "palinurus" is > nearly an anagramm of "elpenor". with kind regards, wolfi kofler and martin > korenjak > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Mar 16 15:24:55 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 16 Mar 2001 14:58:48 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id NAA24844; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 13:21:25 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 19:57:50 +0000 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Focalization in the Aeneid In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >At 02:48 AM 3/15/01 -0800, Andreas wrote: >>Have some thoughts about the "focalization" (a better word for 'point of >view') >>in the Aeneid. Does anyone know where I can find what other people think >about >>this? Any books about Virgil who concider this? The only book I know is >Brooks >>Otis "Virgil: a study in civilized poetry" from the 60's who talk about >>"extern" and "intern" focalization. > >Have a look at: > >Fowler, Don. "Deviant Focalisation in Virgil's Aeneid." Proceedings of the >Cambridge Philological Society n.s. 36 (1990): 42-63. > >-----. "Narrate and Describe: The Problem of Ekphrasis." Journal of Roman >Studies 81 (1991): 25-35. > > Both now in his posthumous _Roman Constructions_ (Oxford, 2000), 40-63 and 64-85 respectively. Leofranc Holford-Strevens >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Dr. David Wilson-Okamura (651) 696-6643 [EMAIL PROTECTED] >English Dept., Macalester College, 1600 Grand Ave., St. Paul, MN 55105 >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Mar 20 11:28:24 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:25:19 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id JAA03454; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:31:31 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 11:31:28 -0500 From: "Heslin, Dr. Tom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: VIRGIL: Virgil What does mean? Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] It has alsways been my impression that the spelling "Virgil" was a medieval corruption of the more historically correct spelling "Vergil." The "i" was introduced to make the name more like the latin word "virga," in response to the use of a wand that would point out a personally significant passage from a randomly opened page of the Aeneid. The story about vergil's being named after a laurel branch (we would name a child Lawrence for the same reason, I guess) sounds like the kind of spurious etymology that abounds in the classical world (cf. the Byrsa - Bosra etymology in Aeneid 1. 367 or the Avernus - aornos etymology in Book 6). -----Original Message----- From: David Wilson-Okamura [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 10:39 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Virgil What does mean? At 01:10 PM 3/8/01 -0600, Virgilio Cervantes Perez wrote: >Espero que sea el lugar correcto, he buscado el >significado del nombre Virgilio, y no he >encontrado una respuesta correcta, en algunos >lugares note que mencionand, que el significado >del nombre se perdio a lo largo de la historia. >quien me puede decir cual es el significado >correo, y toda la etimologia si es que existe. According to the oldest biography of Virgil, the poet's mother gave birth to a laurel branch in a dream; shortly thereafter, she gave birth to a son in real life, and named him after the branch (Latin "virgula"). I suppose what we really want to know is "Who else was naming children Virgil in this period?" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. David Wilson-Okamura (651) 696-6643 [EMAIL PROTECTED] English Dept., Macalester College, 1600 Grand Ave., St. Paul, MN 55105 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Mar 21 10:51:06 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 21 Mar 2001 05:40:57 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id DAA16708; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 03:45:44 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:45:10 +0000 From: Bob Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Silius Italicus Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed Precedence: bulk X-Originating-IP: [163.1.103.104] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Mar 2001 10:45:10.0940 (UTC) FILETIME=[00C4ADC0:01C0B1F4] X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] I am unaware of any English commentaries on the Punica apart from Denis Feeney's unpublished Oxford DPhil commentary on book one, but there _is_ Francois Spaltenstein's two volume commentary on the whole poem in French. The classic book on Silius remains Michael von Albrecht's 1965 'Silius Italicus' (in German) but there is an excellent 1986 study of the poem in English by Ahl, Davis and Pomeroy in ANRW II.32.4 2492-2561. Good recent work on the poem has appeared in Feeney's Gods in Epic (though with a negative verdict on the much-maligned poet), Boyle's collection Roman Epic and Donald McGuire's Acts of Silence. Also useful are series of articles in various journals published by DWTC Vessey in the 70s and K.O. Matier from the 80s to the present. I hope this is of some help. Bob Cowan Keble College Oxford OX1 3PG >From: "roche73" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: VIRGIL: Silius Italicus >Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:52:12 +1000 > >Hello > - Do list members know of any commentaries on the Punica published >in English? > - What's the best introduction to Silius' work (aside from Hardie >1993)? >Any other help/advice to do with this work would be appreciated. >P. A. Roche _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Mar 21 13:02:07 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:21:20 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id KAA20771; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:40:09 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:39:59 -0500 From: "Heslin, Dr. Tom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: VIRGIL: Palinurus, Epicurus Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Wasn't Vergil following an established legend for the naming of the Capus Palinurus (Modern Capo Palinuro) when he wrote the Aeneid. This is one of the many historical/legendary allusions that vergil uses. It would be interesting to know if the cape got its name first, then had a Palinurus legend attached to it. The name Palinurus, also found as a slave's name in Plautus's Curculio means, I believe "urine in all directions." Have we gone from latrine to legend? -----Original Message----- From: David Wilson-Okamura [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 2:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Palinurus, Epicurus At 09:21 PM 3/11/01 +0000, M W Hughes writes: >>Palinurus' descent into the deep ocean seems to form an important parallel >>to Aeneas' descent into the deep earth: both experiences feature a bough. >>May I seek opinions about whether the Palinurus episode is open to a >>naturalistic, Epicurean explanation and mention that my own preferred, >>dithering answer is Yes and No. At 12:55 AM 3/12/01 +0000, Leofranc Holford-Strevens replies: >Do yourself justice. A dithering answer would be 'either yes or no, I >can't make up my mind'; your answer is dialectical. -- and hits, as usual, the nail on the head. May I follow up on the suggested parallel with the katabasis in book 6? We have talked, in the past, about the gates of ivory, and in the past I have defended the philosophical/allegorical interpretation of Servius: i.e., the ivory gate exit is a way of denying the literal truth of the underworld descent. I still find this explanation attractive. However, Servius also offers a second reading of the gate, one that is not at all inimical to the anti-Augustan reading favored by most of my compatriots: Ea vero quae supra fortunam sunt et habent nimium ornatum vanamque iactantiam dicunt falsa esse: unde eburnea, quasi ornatior porta, fingitur falsa. According to this second reading, Virgil sends Aeneas out through the horn gate because horn is a glamorous material and this is a glamorous dream: flashy, boastful, but basically unrealistic; these are dreams in which expectations exceed possibilities. Note that this is not the same thing as saying that the dream of Empire is really a nightmare (which is how some people want to read "falsa...insomina"). It might mean that Aeneas is getting delusions of grandeur at this point, although I don't think that this is really consistent with the way that Virgil presents us to him over the course of the poem. It's more likely, I think, to mean that the reality of Rome will always be messier than the dream of Rome. (I realize that Feeney -- and probably others, as well -- think the dream is pretty messy, too.) Of course, this revelation needn't damn the whole enterprise. The Aeneid, as I told a group of my students last week, is a poem for grown-ups. "No man who has once read it with full perception remains an adolescent." That the poem ends as it does is hardly unexpected; the challenge, rather, was to make the conclusion astonishing -- and in that, of course, Virgil has succeeded. Not that is very hard to shock a modern audience -- where rules multiply, so do the opportunities for transgression. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Mar 22 08:26:24 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 21 Mar 2001 23:30:10 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id WAA11595; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:02:47 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:01:44 -0800 From: gypsyx2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Palinurus, Epicurus Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Mar 2001 05:02:13.0919 (UTC) FILETIME=[425232F0:01C0B28D] References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Horace also mentions Palinurus in his Book of Odes.... Book 3, Ode 4, the 7th stanza. Horace is speaking of his own brushes with death and mentions Palinurus along with Sicilian waves. It was mentioned in class that this was a reference to some stormy area of the Med. Sea. I'm not clear on all the details though. It may be Horace reinforcing the legend of the Cape mentioned by Dr. Heslin. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Mar 25 14:20:59 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 24 Mar 2001 19:39:44 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id RAA17588; Sat, 24 Mar 2001 17:57:22 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 19:54:21 -0500 From: "thomas p. armstrong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Carmen II.14 - link to Virgil Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E (Win95; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In Carmen II.14, Horace uses, maybe intentionally, the words "pietas" and "frustra". Both of these words are linked to crucial concepts in the Aenied. Is it possible that Horace uses these words purposely or is just mere coincidence? Any information or opinion would be helpful. Thank you in advance. XIV Eheu fugaces, Postume, Postume, labuntur anni nec pietas moram rugis et instanti senectae adferet indomitaeque morti, 5 non, si trecenis quotquot eunt dies, amice, places inlacrimabilem Plutona tauris, qui ter amplum Geryonen Tityonque tristi compescit unda, scilicet omnibus 10 quicumque terrae munere uescimur enauiganda, siue reges siue inopes erimus coloni. Frustra cruento Marte carebimus fractisque rauci fluctibus Hadriae, 15 frustra per autumnos nocentem corporibus metuemus Austrum: uisendus ater flumine languido Cocytos errans et Danai genus infame damnatusque longi 20 Sisyphus Aeolides laboris. Linquenda tellus et domus et placens uxor, neque harum quas colis arborum te praeter inuisas cupressos ulla breuem dominum sequetur; 25 absumet heres Caecuba dignior seruata centum clauibus et mero tinguet pauimentum superbo, pontificum potiore cenis. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Mar 25 14:21:17 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 25 Mar 2001 05:40:29 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id DAA04877; Sun, 25 Mar 2001 03:50:57 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:49:09 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Carmen II.14 - link to Virgil In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, thomas p. armstrong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >In Carmen II.14, Horace uses, maybe intentionally, the words "pietas" and >"frustra". >Both of these words are linked to crucial concepts in the Aenied. Is it >possible that >Horace uses these words purposely or is just mere coincidence? They are both normal and frequent words, not new with Vergil, nor is there anything peculiarly Aeneidic here. (See Nisbet-Hubbard for the literary antecedents; and a pessimistic view of ageing is an ancient commonplace.) Nor do we even know when the ode was written, save that Books 1-3 were presented to Augustus in 23 BC, and hence whether Vergil had yet started work on the Aeneid. However, there is a general question of how much Horace knew about his friend's work in progress, and an even more general question of the circulation of ancient works of literature while they were still being composed. (Not only ancient: there are passages in _Tamburlaine_ that are quite unlike Marlowe and echo _The Faerie Queene_, yet that was not printed till some years later.) Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Mar 25 14:39:31 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 25 Mar 2001 14:37:08 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id MAA23384; Sun, 25 Mar 2001 12:57:32 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 21:56:54 +0200 From: Emilio Canales Mu�oz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Virgil Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lista de discusi�n virgilio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [es] (Win98; U) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_8xo0jkK3JvIb5vCFbPb6gg)" Precedence: bulk X-Accept-Language: es X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> ¿Sabría alguien decirme a qué autor pertenece esta afirmación que he leído en un texto del siglo XVI relativa a la utilización del lenguaje de Enio por parte de Virgilio? <p> "...<i>cum (Vergilius) de stercore Ennii aurum colligeret, legit e spinis rosas..."</i><i></i> <p>Probablemente pertenezca a algún gramático o comentarista del poeta. <p>Gracias de antemano por vuestra colaboración</html> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Mar 25 15:00:54 2001 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 25 Mar 2001 14:47:18 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id NAA24039; Sun, 25 Mar 2001 13:00:22 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 13:59:12 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Aeneid 9 In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear List Members, I read *Aeneid* 9 recently with some students, and discussion turned to the significance of the Nisus and Euryalus episode, especially in connection with the homoerotic theme many readers have noted. After class I felt dissatisfied with our discussion, particularly with my contribution to it. Perhaps some on this list could help me out. Some critics have noted that this episode is significant as a depiction of sexual possessiveness and its consequences and that readers should see here another of Vergil's re-examinations of the nature of heroic action in the long series of his redefinitions of the hero. But what is it essentially that the Nisus-Euryalus episode signifies in the context of the *Aeneid*? Is it that these two young men heed an improper motivation, i.e. they follow a *dira cupido* in their nocturnal venture and that their gratuitous killings are further manifestations of this? Some of my students had trouble seeing how a homoerotic bond between these two was necessary to the episode. To understand the point(s) of the Nisus-Euryalus episode, must one go further into the poem and seek parallels in the relationship between Aeneas and Pallas and between Aeneas and Turnus, as some critics have suggested? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Mar 25 15:20:15 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 25 Mar 2001 15:05:44 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id NAA00154; Sun, 25 Mar 2001 13:29:37 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 14:23:08 -0600 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Aeneid 9 Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] << message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >> Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 13:59:12 -0600 (CST) From: Stephen Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Dear List Members, I read *Aeneid* 9 recently with some students, and discussion turned to the significance of the Nisus and Euryalus episode, especially in connection with the homoerotic theme many readers have noted. After class I felt dissatisfied with our discussion, particularly with my contribution to it. Perhaps some on this list could help me out. Some critics have noted that this episode is significant as a depiction of sexual possessiveness and its consequences and that readers should see here another of Vergil's re-examinations of the nature of heroic action in the long series of his redefinitions of the hero. But what is it essentially that the Nisus-Euryalus episode signifies in the context of the *Aeneid*? Is it that these two young men heed an improper motivation, i.e. they follow a *dira cupido* in their nocturnal venture and that their gratuitous killings are further manifestations of this? Some of my students had trouble seeing how a homoerotic bond between these two was necessary to the episode. To understand the point(s) of the Nisus-Euryalus episode, must one go further into the poem and seek parallels in the relationship between Aeneas and Pallas and between Aeneas and Turnus, as some critics have suggested? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Mar 26 10:55:27 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 25 Mar 2001 18:34:00 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id QAA11955; Sun, 25 Mar 2001 16:49:00 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 00:48:11 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Virgil In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Emilio Canales Mu�oz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > �Sabr�a alguien decirme a qu� autor pertenece esta afirmaci�n que > he le�do en un texto del siglo XVI relativa a la utilizaci�n del > lenguaje de Enio por parte de Virgilio? > > ��� "...cum (Vergilius) de stercore Ennii aurum colligeret, legit > e spinis rosas..." > The long interpolation in Donatus' life of Servius presented by MS Oxford, Bodleian Library, Canonici latinus 61 reports: 'quom Ennium in manu haberet rogareturque quidnam faciet, respondit se aurum colligere de stercore Ennii'. Similarly Cassiodorus in his Institutiones alleges (1. 1. 1): 'Vergilius dum Ennium legeret a quodam quid faceret inquisitus respondit: aurum in stercore quaero', whence John of Salisbury, _Policraticus_ 5 prol. 1 can write 'si enim Virgilio licit aurum sapientiae in luto Ennii quaerere'. See A. Otto, _Die Sprichw�rter und sprichw�rtlichen Redensarten der R�mer_ (Leipzig, 1890 and reprints), 202, who cites two examples from St Jerome of 'aurum quaerere in luto' (add Aponius, In Canticum IX 3, Corpus Christianorum, Series Latina 19. 216 'aurum de luto collectum'), and Otto Skutsch in his edition of _The_ Annals_ of Quintus Ennius_ (Oxford, 1985), 13-14, who associates the anecdote with various Greek polemics about Homer and also comments soundly: 'What we know about the personality of Virgil makes it very unlikely that the story is true; his obvious indebtedness to the older poet will have caused it to be invented in the Neronian period, when Virgil was admired and Ennius despised.' An example is Seneca's comment (cited by Gellius 12. 2. 10) 'Vergilius quoque noster non ex alia causa duros quosdam uersus et enormes et aliquid supra mensuram trahentis interposuit, quam ut Ennianus populus adgnosceret in nouo carmine aliquid antiquitatis'. His coeval Persius 1. 92-7 represents a modernist as contrasting the old-fashioned 'Arma uirum' with the smoothness achieved by the contemporary poets; to such a man (not a man, to believe Persius) Ennius would indeed be mere dung. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Mar 28 08:43:58 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:31:49 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id VAA14085; Tue, 27 Mar 2001 21:56:19 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 23:55:36 -0500 (EST) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid 9 Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10523 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_ac.128a55ed.27f2c8c8_boundary" Content-disposition: Inline Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Dear List Members, <BR> <BR><<I read *Aeneid* 9 recently with some students, and discussion turned <BR>to the significance of the Nisus and Euryalus episode, especially in <BR>connection with the homoerotic theme many readers have noted. After <BR>class I felt dissatisfied with our discussion, particularly with my <BR>contribution to it. Perhaps some on this list could help me out. <BR> <BR><<Some critics have noted that this episode is significant as a depiction <BR>of sexual possessiveness and its consequences and that readers should <BR>see here another of Vergil's re-examinations of the nature of heroic <BR>action in the long series of his redefinitions of the hero. But what is <BR>it essentially that the Nisus-Euryalus episode signifies in the context <BR>of the *Aeneid*? Is it that these two young men heed an improper <BR>motivation, i.e. they follow a *dira cupido* in their nocturnal venture <BR>and that their gratuitous killings are further manifestations of this? <BR>Some of my students had trouble seeing how a homoerotic bond between <BR>these two was necessary to the episode. <BR> <BR><<To understand the point(s) of the Nisus-Euryalus episode, must one go <BR>further into the poem and seek parallels in the relationship between <BR>Aeneas and Pallas and between Aeneas and Turnus, as some critics have <BR>suggested?>> <BR> <BR>I guess I read the episode as an example of Vergil's ability to show an issue <BR>from multiple aspects simultaneously, so that he leaves the thoughtful reader <BR>as ambivalent as Vergil was himself. The effusive praise of the author and <BR>of the Trojans for the boys' foolhardy acts prompts us to question our own <BR>assumptions about the nature of glory and heroism. <BR>Have your students taken a look at Iliad 10.314 ff., commonly called the <BR>Doloneia, one of Vergil's sources for the Nisus-Euryalus episode? An <BR>awareness of the ways that Vergil develops and transforms the Doloneia, which <BR>would have been familiar to his contemporaries, may help us understand what <BR>he meant to convey. Homer views Dolon (a cowardly and fatuous young man) and <BR>his nighttime foray very unsympathetically (as I recall, some think the <BR>Doloneia is intended to be comic); while Vergil, on similar facts, leads us <BR>to sympathize with their boyish folly. <BR>I'm not sure what "Some of my students had trouble seeing how a homoerotic <BR>bond between these two was necessary to the episode" meant. I would suggest <BR>that the love of Achilles and Patroclus for each other in the Iliad probably <BR>helped inspire Vergil in his Nisus and Euryalus episode. Vergil understood <BR>that soldiers fight not only for their country but even more for each other. <BR> <BR>Ed Weston</FONT></HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Apr 02 11:01:32 2001 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:12:05 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id TAA05847; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 19:34:33 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:33:52 -0500 From: OLIVER P METZGER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid 9 Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005C_01C0B897.F3661560" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Doesn't Plato say that the best army would be one in which each soldier had a lover who was also in the army, so that every time a soldier was killed there would be another passionate for revenge? It may be in the Symposium. Not that Vergil's episode can be reduced to some sort of case study of this view -- I agree with the view expressed below that the episode is a good example of how Vergil shows an issue from multiple aspects simultaneously.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Another thing that always impresses me about this episode is the question "does each of us make a god of our own dire desire?" I have seen some quite interesting debate on this list about the degree to which the viewpoints of twentieth (and now twenty-first) century readers of the Aeneid can color an interpretation of the text. This question seems to me so very very modern, and so surprising to find in a classical text. This is one of those places where it seems hard to make sense of the statement in any way other than a very modern way. Also noteworthy is that "dira" resurfaces later, in reference to the monsters that sit next to a "real" God, Jove -- so maybe Jove is a construction of a (collective) dira cupido as well? That of course would be a very twentieth (and maybe not twenty-first?) century thing to say, and maybe doesn't follow from the Nisus episode at all.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>By the way, is there any evidence on the degree to which Vergil was familiar with Plato?</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A [EMAIL PROTECTED] href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">david connor</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A [EMAIL PROTECTED] href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, March 28, 2001 9:22 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid 9</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>When I read the Iliad 10 and the Aeneid 9 I think of the poem "Dulce et Decorum est pro patria mori" and recall the great lines: <BR> ... You would not tell with such high zest <BR>To children ardent for some desperate glory <BR>The old lie: Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori <BR>The connection may not be apparent, but I believe that because Vergil and Homer wrote works of such depth and power, the words they chose could either inflame insane, reckless patriotism in an impressionable young person, or they could assert a repudiation of death in war in a mature hearer. If the paths of glory lead but to the grave, nobody ever said it better than these two poets. Sometimes it's a suicidal mission, sometimes a coward's ignoble retreat, but the deeper moral vision remains the same -- war is a waste. If this isn't the essence of Homer and Vergil then we might as well be watching a B-movie full of guts and glory. <P>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE="CITE"><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>Dear List Members,</FONT></FONT> <P><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1><<I read *Aeneid* 9 recently with some students, and discussion turned</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>to the significance of the Nisus and Euryalus episode, especially in</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>connection with the homoerotic theme many readers have noted. After</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>class I felt dissatisfied with our discussion, particularly with my</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>contribution to it. Perhaps some on this list could help me out.</FONT></FONT> <P><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1><<Some critics have noted that this episode is significant as a depiction</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>of sexual possessiveness and its consequences and that readers should</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>see here another of Vergil's re-examinations of the nature of heroic</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>action in the long series of his redefinitions of the hero. But what is</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>it essentially that the Nisus-Euryalus episode signifies in the context</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>of the *Aeneid*? Is it that these two young men heed an improper</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>motivation, i.e. they follow a *dira cupido* in their nocturnal venture</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>and that their gratuitous killings are further manifestations of this?</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>Some of my students had trouble seeing how a homoerotic bond between</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>these two was necessary to the episode.</FONT></FONT> <P><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1><<To understand the point(s) of the Nisus-Euryalus episode, must one go</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>further into the poem and seek parallels in the relationship between</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>Aeneas and Pallas and between Aeneas and Turnus, as some critics have</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>suggested?>></FONT></FONT> <P><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>I guess I read the episode as an example of Vergil's ability to show an issue</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>from multiple aspects simultaneously, so that he leaves the thoughtful reader</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>as ambivalent as Vergil was himself. The effusive praise of the author and</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>of the Trojans for the boys' foolhardy acts prompts us to question our own</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>assumptions about the nature of glory and heroism.</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>Have your students taken a look at Iliad 10.314 ff., commonly called the</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>Doloneia, one of Vergil's sources for the Nisus-Euryalus episode? An</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>awareness of the ways that Vergil develops and transforms the Doloneia, which</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>would have been familiar to his contemporaries, may help us understand what</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>he meant to convey. Homer views Dolon (a cowardly and fatuous young man) and</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>his nighttime foray very unsympathetically (as I recall, some think the</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>Doloneia is intended to be comic); while Vergil, on similar facts, leads us</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>to sympathize with their boyish folly.</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>I'm not sure what "Some of my students had trouble seeing how a homoerotic</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>bond between these two was necessary to the episode" meant. I would suggest</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>that the love of Achilles and Patroclus for each other in the Iliad probably</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>helped inspire Vergil in his Nisus and Euryalus episode. Vergil understood</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>that soldiers fight not only for their country but even more for each other.</FONT></FONT> <P><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=-1>Ed Weston</FONT></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Apr 02 11:01:41 2001 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 29 Mar 2001 23:18:50 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id VAA20212; Thu, 29 Mar 2001 21:47:43 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 23:47:09 -0500 (EST) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid 9 Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10523 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_35.12ce9bdc.27f569cd_boundary" Content-disposition: Inline Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Aen. 6 has extensive references to Plato (e.g. Aen. 6. 743 ff.) That being <BR>said, I think it is impossible to identify Vergil with any particular <BR>philosophical persuasion, since he alludes to all the dominant philosophies <BR>of his time. <BR> <BR>Ed Weston</FONT></HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Apr 02 11:03:00 2001 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 30 Mar 2001 22:02:38 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id UAA03600; Fri, 30 Mar 2001 20:31:32 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 01:32:37 +1000 From: roche73 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Unfinished Lines of The Aeneid Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Russell, Sparrow's "Half-Lines and Repetitions in Virgil" (Oxford 1931) would be a good place to start - sorry if it's a bit old - other list members might know of more recent work in this area. P.A.Roche ----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, 31 March 2001 6:46 Subject: VIRGIL: Unfinished Lines of The Aeneid > I am looking for a complete listing of the unfinished lines of Virgil's > Aeneid. If anyone has an idea where I may be able to reference the line and > book numbers without going through the entire corpus, could you please pass > that along. > > Best, > > Russell Beneke > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Apr 02 11:02:35 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:53:35 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id KAA24192; Fri, 30 Mar 2001 10:04:51 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 09:04:10 -0800 From: anXiety forever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: The past tense in the Aeneid Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: binary Precedence: bulk X-Originating-Ip: [195.100.148.36] X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] I would like to know what you think about the fact that some events in the Aeneid is written in the past tense, while almost everything else is written in the present tense. One example is when Aeneas and Achates meet Venus in Book 1 (318-401). Another is when Aeneas meets Venus (again!) in Book 2 (588-624). I know that this might be something that only appears in my translated text, but I hope that is not the case! /Andreas Andersson ------------------------------------------------------------ Kent Mail rockar! http://www.kent.nu ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Apr 02 11:02:34 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 30 Mar 2001 11:44:20 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id KAA24469; Fri, 30 Mar 2001 10:06:54 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 18:06:46 +0100 (BST) From: M W Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid 9 In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] References to the horror and insanity of war are certainly an integral element of V's writing. The connection between the war spirit, the desire to impress sexual partners and sheer bloodlust is examined, and gives force and precision to the idea that there is an element of imbalance, even insanity, present. (I don't share the disparaging view of the Nisus episode expressed by Jenkyns in 'V's Experience'.) This theme is linked to the theme of the value of Hellenistic culture, where gay militarism was so highly valued - Epaminondas, the Theban victor over Sparta in 371, had exploited this idea to great effect, perhaps in his real military work, certainly in his propaganda. V certainly acknowledges that there are dangerous elements both in the Love-Death-Glory psychology and in the culture where that turn of mind had found a home. Yet he also seems to tell us that there is something indispensable about both of them. The Trojan leaders find that they cannot refuse Nisus' offer: perhaps there is some feeling that Nisus' raid will at least create a diversion and that this pair, whose mannners recall the Greeks, the national enemy, are a little expendable. Aeneas finds that he must accept and sincerely welcome Pallas, who expects, given his background, to form an Epaminondas-style relationship with Aeneas himself. No wonder his feelings about Pallas' death are so disturbing and guilt-ridden. More generally, it is obvious that the Aeneid and the whole Augustan achievement are products of Hellenism as well as of Rome. Nisus' famous remark connecting divine providence with 'dira cupido' is often (I think rightly) used to indicate that V thinks that there is always some kind of naturalistic explanation for supernatural events. I agree with Ed W that it also indicates an element of improper motivation. But the connection goes both ways: to understand some natural forces we have to think in terms which go beyond the natural; moreover, a motivation which is improper, disturbing (even slightly sordid?), can sometimes acquire some kind of moral and divine tincture. The motivation of N and E is not beyond criticism but we can't ignore the fact that they acted, at least in part, for the salvation of their people. Hence the final - still deeply disturbing - association of their deaths with religious ritual. The problem of N and E should contribute to the bigger problem of Turnus, who has a heterosexual form of their motivation: Cairns in 'V's Augustan Epic' says that he is an amator, fighting for Lavinia. I think he has a more improper motivation, based on feelings for the popular and patriotic Amata, which she reciprocates: a more credible version of Hippolytus responding to a more lovable version of Phaedra. - Martin Hughes On Wed, 28 Mar 2001, david connor wrote: > When I read the Iliad 10 and the Aeneid 9 I think of the poem "Dulce et > Decorum est pro patria mori" and recall the great lines: > ... You would not tell with such high zest > To children ardent for some desperate glory > The old lie: Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori > The connection may not be apparent, but I believe that because Vergil > and Homer wrote works of such depth and power, the words they chose > could either inflame insane, reckless patriotism in an impressionable > young person, or they could assert a repudiation of death in war in a > mature hearer. If the paths of glory lead but to the grave, nobody ever > said it better than these two poets. Sometimes it's a suicidal mission, > sometimes a coward's ignoble retreat, but the deeper moral vision > remains the same -- war is a waste. If this isn't the essence of Homer > and Vergil then we might as well be watching a B-movie full of guts and > glory. > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Dear List Members, > > > > <<I read *Aeneid* 9 recently with some students, and discussion turned > > > > to the significance of the Nisus and Euryalus episode, especially in > > connection with the homoerotic theme many readers have noted. After > > class I felt dissatisfied with our discussion, particularly with my > > contribution to it. Perhaps some on this list could help me out. > > > > <<Some critics have noted that this episode is significant as a > > depiction > > of sexual possessiveness and its consequences and that readers should > > see here another of Vergil's re-examinations of the nature of heroic > > action in the long series of his redefinitions of the hero. But what > > is > > it essentially that the Nisus-Euryalus episode signifies in the > > context > > of the *Aeneid*? Is it that these two young men heed an improper > > motivation, i.e. they follow a *dira cupido* in their nocturnal > > venture > > and that their gratuitous killings are further manifestations of this? > > > > Some of my students had trouble seeing how a homoerotic bond between > > these two was necessary to the episode. > > > > <<To understand the point(s) of the Nisus-Euryalus episode, must one > > go > > further into the poem and seek parallels in the relationship between > > Aeneas and Pallas and between Aeneas and Turnus, as some critics have > > suggested?>> > > > > I guess I read the episode as an example of Vergil's ability to show > > an issue > > from multiple aspects simultaneously, so that he leaves the thoughtful > > reader > > as ambivalent as Vergil was himself. The effusive praise of the > > author and > > of the Trojans for the boys' foolhardy acts prompts us to question our > > own > > assumptions about the nature of glory and heroism. > > Have your students taken a look at Iliad 10.314 ff., commonly called > > the > > Doloneia, one of Vergil's sources for the Nisus-Euryalus episode? An > > awareness of the ways that Vergil develops and transforms the > > Doloneia, which > > would have been familiar to his contemporaries, may help us understand > > what > > he meant to convey. Homer views Dolon (a cowardly and fatuous young > > man) and > > his nighttime foray very unsympathetically (as I recall, some think > > the > > Doloneia is intended to be comic); while Vergil, on similar facts, > > leads us > > to sympathize with their boyish folly. > > I'm not sure what "Some of my students had trouble seeing how a > > homoerotic > > bond between these two was necessary to the episode" meant. I would > > suggest > > that the love of Achilles and Patroclus for each other in the Iliad > > probably > > helped inspire Vergil in his Nisus and Euryalus episode. Vergil > > understood > > that soldiers fight not only for their country but even more for each > > other. > > > > Ed Weston > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Apr 02 11:02:49 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 30 Mar 2001 15:55:50 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id NAA22346; Fri, 30 Mar 2001 13:47:17 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 15:46:25 -0500 (EST) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VIRGIL: Unfinished Lines of The Aeneid Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] I am looking for a complete listing of the unfinished lines of Virgil's Aeneid. If anyone has an idea where I may be able to reference the line and book numbers without going through the entire corpus, could you please pass that along. Best, Russell Beneke ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Apr 02 12:16:32 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 2 Apr 2001 11:04:03 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id KAA24339; Mon, 02 Apr 2001 10:16:52 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 11:15:14 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Aeneid 9 and Sacred Band Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] << message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >> From: "Jesse Kercheval" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 09:15:36 -0500 Just for the records of anyone writing on this subject: Plato says in the Symposium - "If a state or an army could be formed only of lovers and their beloved, how could any company hope for greater things than these, despising infamy and rivaling each other in honor? Even a few of them, fighting side by side, might well conquer the world." and Plutarch, in his "Life of Pelopidas" talks about the 'Sacred Band' of Thebes that Gorgidas composed of lovers. But I am unsure of his sources. How this relates to V's Nisus/Euryalus episode I'm also not positive. Certainly both are proof that passion in love may be valuable as well in war... -Jesse Kercheval ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Apr 02 14:19:11 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 2 Apr 2001 12:45:16 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id MAA13712; Mon, 02 Apr 2001 12:08:03 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 19:06:11 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid 9 and Sacred Band In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Christine Perkell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >I must insist that "Plato" does not say this, but rather the speaker Phaedrus >says it. There is no particular reason to think that the view is Plato's own. >Indeed, as the first speaker in the dialogue, Phaedrus is likely the one with >the least access to truth in Plato's view. > >Christine Perkell > > Which raises the question whether anyone in a Platonic dialogue has access to the truth. In the third and second centuries BC, the prevailing view was that there is no right answer, but that one should learn how to argue both sides of the case; that went out of fashion in Cicero's day, since when it has been the norm to suppose that Plato had a teaching to impart, though with rather less agreement on what that teaching is. When I was at school I used books that said that whatever remained unrefuted was intended to be true; nowadays undergraduates are specifically warned against thinking so. Indeed, the point is well taken: we should no more say 'Plato says this' than 'Euripides says that' or 'Shakespeare says the other' (though the tradition of doing so is not of recent vintage). Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Apr 02 14:19:20 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 2 Apr 2001 13:17:49 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id MAA16764; Mon, 02 Apr 2001 12:28:31 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 13:27:37 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Trevet's Eclogues commentary Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] This morning I was reading John Fleming's introduction to the fraternal orders in England and came across a reference to a commentary on the Eclogues by Nicholas Trevet (fl. 1300). Does anyone know if this has been edited? Yours faithfully, David ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://geoffreychaucer.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Chaucer: An Annotated Guide to Online Resources ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Apr 03 12:12:42 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 2 Apr 2001 20:05:26 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id TAA22500; Mon, 02 Apr 2001 19:34:31 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 21:33:42 -0500 From: david connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid 9 and Sacred Band Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Organization: corn hill ww MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks to Christine Perkell for making such an important observation about what "Plato" says. It's a point that Bloom makes quite strongly in his commentaries, and it's easily overlooked. Christine Perkell wrote: > I must insist that "Plato" does not say this, but rather the speaker Phaedrus > says it. There is no particular reason to think that the view is Plato's own. > Indeed, as the first speaker in the dialogue, Phaedrus is likely the one with > the least access to truth in Plato's view. > > Christine Perkell > > David Wilson-Okamura wrote: > > > << message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >> > > > > From: "Jesse Kercheval" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 09:15:36 -0500 > > > > Just for the records of anyone writing on this subject: > > > > Plato says in the Symposium - > > "If a state or an army could be formed only of lovers and their beloved, how > > could any company hope for greater things than these, despising infamy and > > rivaling each other in honor? Even a few of them, fighting side by side, > > might well conquer the world." > > > > and > > > > Plutarch, in his "Life of Pelopidas" talks about the 'Sacred Band' of Thebes > > that Gorgidas composed of lovers. But I am unsure of his sources. > > > > How this relates to V's Nisus/Euryalus episode I'm also not positive. > > Certainly both are proof that passion in love may be valuable as well in > > war... > > > > -Jesse Kercheval > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Apr 03 12:13:21 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 3 Apr 2001 02:17:44 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id BAA05896; Tue, 03 Apr 2001 01:04:02 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 21:33:42 -0500 From: david connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid 9 and Sacred Band Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Organization: corn hill ww MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks to Christine Perkell for making such an important observation about what "Plato" says. It's a point that Bloom makes quite strongly in his commentaries, and it's easily overlooked. Christine Perkell wrote: > I must insist that "Plato" does not say this, but rather the speaker Phaedrus > says it. There is no particular reason to think that the view is Plato's own. > Indeed, as the first speaker in the dialogue, Phaedrus is likely the one with > the least access to truth in Plato's view. > > Christine Perkell > > David Wilson-Okamura wrote: > > > << message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >> > > > > From: "Jesse Kercheval" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 09:15:36 -0500 > > > > Just for the records of anyone writing on this subject: > > > > Plato says in the Symposium - > > "If a state or an army could be formed only of lovers and their beloved, how > > could any company hope for greater things than these, despising infamy and > > rivaling each other in honor? Even a few of them, fighting side by side, > > might well conquer the world." > > > > and > > > > Plutarch, in his "Life of Pelopidas" talks about the 'Sacred Band' of Thebes > > that Gorgidas composed of lovers. But I am unsure of his sources. > > > > How this relates to V's Nisus/Euryalus episode I'm also not positive. > > Certainly both are proof that passion in love may be valuable as well in > > war... > > > > -Jesse Kercheval > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Apr 06 09:25:04 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 5 Apr 2001 19:01:17 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id RAA27432; Thu, 05 Apr 2001 17:30:55 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 00:18:26 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Aeneid 9 In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] On the issue of this episode, I have just received the latest issue of Mnemosyne, 4th ser., 54, fasc. 1 (February, 2001), which contains an article by K. F. L. Pollmann, 'Statius _Thebaid_ and the Legacy of Vergil's _Aeneid_' (pp. 10-30), which is mainly given to a comparison between the Nisus-Euryalus episode in _Aeneid_ 9, a somewhat questionable enterprise within an essentially just war, and the Hopleus- Dymas episode in _Thebaid_ 10, an honourable but still unsuccessful enterprise within an amoral war, also comparing by way of summary the Doloneia (_Iliad_ 10, already recognized in antiquity as an interpolation), a heroic exploit within a just (or at any rate not unjust) war. There is much food for thought here. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_ * Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Apr 08 14:50:58 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 7 Apr 2001 21:15:18 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id TAA03822; Sat, 07 Apr 2001 19:13:41 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 21:14:05 -0400 From: OLIVER P METZGER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid 9 and Sacred Band Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Fifteen years after teaching me Virgil, Professor Perkel is still keeping me in line! I apologize for what might be called a Deasy-ism, after the schoolmaster in James Joyces's Ulysses: Mr. Deasy: ... But what does Shakespeare say? Put but money in thy purse. -- Iago, Stephen murmured. (II.238-40) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christine Perkell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 1:19 PM Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid 9 and Sacred Band > I must insist that "Plato" does not say this, but rather the speaker Phaedrus > says it. There is no particular reason to think that the view is Plato's own. > Indeed, as the first speaker in the dialogue, Phaedrus is likely the one with > the least access to truth in Plato's view. > > Christine Perkell > > David Wilson-Okamura wrote: > > > << message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >> > > > > From: "Jesse Kercheval" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 09:15:36 -0500 > > > > Just for the records of anyone writing on this subject: > > > > Plato says in the Symposium - > > "If a state or an army could be formed only of lovers and their beloved, how > > could any company hope for greater things than these, despising infamy and > > rivaling each other in honor? Even a few of them, fighting side by side, > > might well conquer the world." > > > > and > > > > Plutarch, in his "Life of Pelopidas" talks about the 'Sacred Band' of Thebes > > that Gorgidas composed of lovers. But I am unsure of his sources. > > > > How this relates to V's Nisus/Euryalus episode I'm also not positive. > > Certainly both are proof that passion in love may be valuable as well in > > war... > > > > -Jesse Kercheval > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Apr 08 14:50:59 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 7 Apr 2001 21:18:44 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id TAA04245; Sat, 07 Apr 2001 19:18:08 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 21:18:33 -0400 From: OLIVER P METZGER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid 9 and Sacred Band Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Is there scholarship on the issue of Virgil's awareness of Plato? (or other philosophers, for that matter?) Epicurus has been discussed on this list in the past, I believe. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leofranc Holford-Strevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 2:06 PM Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid 9 and Sacred Band > In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Christine Perkell > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >I must insist that "Plato" does not say this, but rather the speaker Phaedrus > >says it. There is no particular reason to think that the view is Plato's own. > >Indeed, as the first speaker in the dialogue, Phaedrus is likely the one with > >the least access to truth in Plato's view. > > > >Christine Perkell > > > > > Which raises the question whether anyone in a Platonic dialogue has > access to the truth. In the third and second centuries BC, the > prevailing view was that there is no right answer, but that one should > learn how to argue both sides of the case; that went out of fashion in > Cicero's day, since when it has been the norm to suppose that Plato had > a teaching to impart, though with rather less agreement on what that > teaching is. When I was at school I used books that said that whatever > remained unrefuted was intended to be true; nowadays undergraduates are > specifically warned against thinking so. Indeed, the point is well > taken: we should no more say 'Plato says this' than 'Euripides says > that' or 'Shakespeare says the other' (though the tradition of doing so > is not of recent vintage). > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > > Leofranc Holford-Strevens > 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone > Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? > OX2 6EJ > > tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) > > *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Apr 08 15:06:52 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 8 Apr 2001 15:03:56 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id NAA17438; Sun, 08 Apr 2001 13:29:55 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 12:11:31 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid 9 and Sacred Band In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, OLIVER P METZGER <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >Is there scholarship on the issue of Virgil's awareness of Plato? (or other >philosophers, for that matter?) Lots and lots and lots; he would have had to be remarkably uneducated *not* to be aware of the major philosophical writings and theories. But that is only the beginning of the problem; the true Roman attitude expressed by Cicero in a letter to his son (Fragemnta Epistularum VIII 4 in Watt's OCT, from Lactantius, _Divine Institutes_ 3. 14. 17) that one should know what the philopshers say but live by the standards of a Roman citizen, 'philosophiae quidem praecepta noscenda, vivendum autem esse civiliter', might be amended in Vergil's case as 'scribendum autem esse poetice'. The question is not merely what Vergil has read, but what he has done with it; if that is true of any poet, how much more so of Vergil! Give us the original text of Callimachus' poetry, and the complete run of the Alexandrian Library that he catalogued, and we shall solve every difficulty; give us everything that Vergil read, and who will undertake anything of the kind for him? > Epicurus has been discussed on this list in >the past, I believe. So indeed, I think, has Plato. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Apr 12 09:31:42 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:16:14 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id HAA19246; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 07:37:41 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 08:37:03 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Virgil and the American President Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't wish to turn this into a discussion about contemporary politics, but those who take an interest in the intellectual accomplishments of the American president will, I think, find some amusement in the following: THE ONION, 11 April 2001 Bush Regales Dinner Guests with Impromptu Oratory on Virgil's Lesser-Known Poetry" http://www.theonion.com/onion3713/bush_regales_guests.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Apr 13 13:39:27 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 13 Apr 2001 03:23:13 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id BAA05073; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 01:59:50 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:59:36 +0100 From: Giovanni Robaldo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Augustus and the principate in Virgil's Aeneid. Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0C3F8.109B68E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type> <META content="MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was wondering if anyone had idea's or suggestins for online articles regarding the three prophecy scenes in the Aeneid: prophecy of Jupiter, Prophecy of Anchises, The Shield. All three relate to augustus, but how is the history significant for example in the "Parade of heroes?"</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Apr 13 13:42:47 2001 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 13 Apr 2001 09:15:42 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id HAA06925; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 07:50:16 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 14:31:10 +0100 From: Helen Conrad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Death of Professor Peter Marshall In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3070017070_1257913_MIME_Part" Precedence: bulk User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Death of Professor Peter Marshall</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <B>I am sure everyone in Mantovano will be grieved to hear Professor Peter Marshall of Amherst College passed away last Monday. Professor Marshall worked throughout his career on the Vergilian commentaries. His edition of the Spangenberg bifolium will published this summer in Rivista di Philologia.<BR> Helen COB</B></BLOCKQUOTE> </BODY> </HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Apr 14 08:54:48 2001 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 13 Apr 2001 15:24:21 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id OAA16988; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 14:03:53 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 15:03:16 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Hellenism and the Harvard School Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] One of my projects for this academic year has been to read, think, and write about Virgil's epic style and its imitators. I still have a lot of all three to do, but this morning a few thoughts came together over coffee, and I'd welcome your reaction. 1a. For all practical purposes, the Hellenistic element in Virgil's epic was largely lost on his Renaissance critics and commentators. Instead, they focus on the classical (universalizing) tendencies. 1b. This was probably not a programmatic bias. Rather, such was the state of Western classical scholarship in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries: strong on Latin, just getting started on Greek. 2. There is another thing missing from Virgil criticism in the Renaissance: a sustained interest in the darker moments of the text. This is not to say that no one spoke with Two Voices; those who did, though, were isolated and atypical (see Kallendorf's article on the Harvard School as well as his new monograph on subversion and containment in Virgilian Venice). 3a. Now my question is this: are points (1) and (2) connected? That is to say, is the darkness something that shows itself in Virgil's Hellenism? Two more reasons to think that maybe it is: 3b. This is the silly one: one of the scholars most closely associated with the Harvard school, Wendell Clausen, is also the author of a book on the Hellenistic element in Virgil's poetry; his commentary on the Eclogues is also Hellenistic in orientation. 3c. W. R. Johnson has been saying for several years now that Darkness Visible was really an attempt to talk about Virgil's mannerism. To say that mannerism = Hellenism would obviously be wrong, but it would also (I think) be an exaggeration of the truth in the right direction. Note that by mannerism I mean a rejection of the objective and universal in favor of the subjective and personal. So what do you think? Are the "Friends of Augustus" (e.g., Cairns, Galinsky) responding to the classical element in Virgil's verse, the pessimists the Hellenistic? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Apr 14 08:57:47 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 14 Apr 2001 06:04:15 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id EAA04010; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 04:31:34 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:31:08 +0100 From: Giovanni Robaldo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Hellenism and the Harvard School Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Maybe you could help me. I was wondering the other day if the Parade of Idols in Milton's "Paradise lost" a subversion of the "Parade of heroes" in the Aeneid? if so, what does this suggest? Could it be that Milton read the "Parade of heroes" as an example of an immoral value system where the Republic was put before human good? Or was it simply that he admired the work and was treading in the footsteps of his epic model? ----- Original Message ----- From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 9:03 PM Subject: VIRGIL: Hellenism and the Harvard School > One of my projects for this academic year has been to read, think, and > write about Virgil's epic style and its imitators. I still have a lot of > all three to do, but this morning a few thoughts came together over coffee, > and I'd welcome your reaction. > > 1a. For all practical purposes, the Hellenistic element in Virgil's epic > was largely lost on his Renaissance critics and commentators. Instead, they > focus on the classical (universalizing) tendencies. > > 1b. This was probably not a programmatic bias. Rather, such was the state > of Western classical scholarship in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries: > strong on Latin, just getting started on Greek. > > 2. There is another thing missing from Virgil criticism in the Renaissance: > a sustained interest in the darker moments of the text. This is not to say > that no one spoke with Two Voices; those who did, though, were isolated and > atypical (see Kallendorf's article on the Harvard School as well as his new > monograph on subversion and containment in Virgilian Venice). > > 3a. Now my question is this: are points (1) and (2) connected? That is to > say, is the darkness something that shows itself in Virgil's Hellenism? Two > more reasons to think that maybe it is: > > 3b. This is the silly one: one of the scholars most closely associated with > the Harvard school, Wendell Clausen, is also the author of a book on the > Hellenistic element in Virgil's poetry; his commentary on the Eclogues is > also Hellenistic in orientation. > > 3c. W. R. Johnson has been saying for several years now that Darkness > Visible was really an attempt to talk about Virgil's mannerism. To say that > mannerism = Hellenism would obviously be wrong, but it would also (I think) > be an exaggeration of the truth in the right direction. Note that by > mannerism I mean a rejection of the objective and universal in favor of the > subjective and personal. > > So what do you think? Are the "Friends of Augustus" (e.g., Cairns, > Galinsky) responding to the classical element in Virgil's verse, the > pessimists the Hellenistic? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Apr 14 08:58:18 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 14 Apr 2001 06:09:10 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id EAA04795; Sat, 14 Apr 2001 04:42:32 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 06:41:57 -0400 (EDT) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Virgil What does mean? Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10524 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_37.139f5c0a.28098375_boundary" Content-disposition: Inline Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>With regard to laurel you may wish to consider the following which I would <BR>think educated Romans must have been familiar with: <BR>Apollo was a great archer, but sometimes he was a little full of himself. One <BR>day he caught sight of <A HREF="http://www.pantheon.org/mythica/articles/e/eros.html";>Eros</A>, the son of <A HREF="http://www.pantheon.org/mythica/articles/a/aphrodite.html";>Aphrodite</A>. Eros was also an archer, <BR>and his arrows were responsible for instilling the twists and turns of love <BR>and lust in a person’s heart. Apollo teased young Eros, putting down his <BR>abilities as an archer, claiming that one so small could make no difference <BR>with his arrows. Angry at this insult, Eros shot two arrows, one tipped in <BR>gold, one blunted and tipped with lead. The arrow dipped in gold had the <BR>power to create insatiable lust in a person, while the other created absolute <BR>abhorrence towards all things romantic and passionate. The unfortunate soul <BR>who was struck with that arrow would have no desire to love anyone. The arrow <BR>dipped in gold struck Apollo, but the arrow dipped in lead struck fair <BR>Daphne. Daphne was the daughter of the river god <A HREF="http://www.pantheon.org/mythica/articles/p/peneus.html";>Peneus</A>. Apollo chased down <BR>the maiden, desperate for her love, but she wanted nothing to do with him, <BR>and she ran from him endlessly. Soon, she grew weary in her running and that <BR>Apollo would ultimately catch her. Fearful, she called out to her father for <BR>help. As all gods of water posses the ability of transformation, Peneus <BR>transformed his daughter into a laurel tree. Suddenly her legs took root, and <BR>her arms grew into long and slender branches. Apollo reached the laurel tree, <BR>and, still enamored with Daphne, held the tree in a special place in his <BR>heart. He claimed the tree the as his special tree, and adorned himself with <BR>some of it’s leaves. And that is why the laurel was, and still is, a symbol <BR>of the god Apollo. <BR> <BR>***** <BR>The poet hungers after that which he loves but is unseen and which he would <BR>find rest in but you may disagree and have other thoughts...no???? <BR> <BR>Tacos Sam sincerely.... <BR></FONT></HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Apr 16 08:23:24 2001 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 15 Apr 2001 04:04:13 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id CAA07412; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 02:34:47 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 04:34:11 -0400 (EDT) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Hellenism and the Harvard School Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 129 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] [I originally sent this offlist to the good professor himself; he encouraged me to post it here. His follow-up comments were excellent, and I hope he'll post *them* here as well -- in that hope, I haven't changed what I originally wrote.] Dear Professor Wilson-Okamura: I'm sending this offlist because I suspect I may be misunderstanding your question, and hope not to make too public a fool of myself. You write: << There is another thing missing from Virgil criticism in the Renaissance: a sustained interest in the darker moments of the text. >> I realize you're asking about (a) Virgil's epic, and (b) fifteenth- and sixteenth-century Virgil *criticism*, of the latter of which I am wholly ignorant. Still, does it seem to you that Virgil's "darkness," as seen in the *bucolics*, does compare closely with plenty of Sidney's *Arcadia*...particularly the first version? Or do you read that as the accident of similarly "dark" times, and not a direct indebtedness? (One might ask similar things about Shakespearean "bucolic" works, but I think Sidney makes the clearer case. If you see Sidney as one of those "isolated" voices you mention, I guess I'm off the mark...though heaven knows the Jacobean dramatists were as black as the slasher movies they so resemble. ;) ) If Sidney is consciously echoing Virgil's "darker" tones, why the failure of Renaissance epic critics to "hear" it? Perhaps epic itself tends to be read as simply heroic?, or did until a somewhat more psychologically sophisticated age? Forgive me if this is unduly ignorant; I'm genuinely eager to hear what you might have to say. -- A.J. Rose / Los Angeles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Apr 16 08:23:59 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sun, 15 Apr 2001 11:45:19 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id KAA11751; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 10:15:21 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 17:14:28 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Hellenism and the Harvard School In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes >[I originally sent this offlist to the good professor himself; he encouraged >me to post it here. His follow-up comments were excellent, and I hope he'll >post *them* here as well -- in that hope, I haven't changed what I originally >wrote.] > >Dear Professor Wilson-Okamura: > >I'm sending this offlist because I suspect I may be misunderstanding your >question, and hope not to make too public a fool of myself. You write: > ><< There is another thing missing from Virgil criticism in the Renaissance: a >sustained interest in the darker moments of the text. >> > >I realize you're asking about (a) Virgil's epic, and (b) fifteenth- and >sixteenth-century Virgil *criticism*, of the latter of which I am wholly >ignorant. Still, does it seem to you that Virgil's "darkness," as seen in >the *bucolics*, does compare closely with plenty of Sidney's >*Arcadia*...particularly the first version? Or do you read that as the >accident of similarly "dark" times, and not a direct indebtedness? (One >might ask similar things about Shakespearean "bucolic" works, but I think >Sidney makes the clearer case. If you see Sidney as one of those "isolated" >voices you mention, I guess I'm off the mark...though heaven knows the >Jacobean dramatists were as black as the slasher movies they so resemble. ;) For those who believed (including those who had talked themselves into believing) the Gloriana view of Elizabeth I's reign, James I's was a miserable contrast: peace with Spain, conflicts between king and parliament, and a far less impressive personality as monarch; indeed, Good Queen Bess became even more popular by contrast than she had been in her lifetime. Blackness is as much to be expected as in the age of Seneca and Lucan; though in both ages one may suspect certain artists of enjoying it. > >) > >If Sidney is consciously echoing Virgil's "darker" tones, why the failure of >Renaissance epic critics to "hear" it? Perhaps epic itself tends to be read >as simply heroic?, or did until a somewhat more psychologically sophisticated >age? Perhaps too sophisticated? Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Apr 17 08:32:27 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 17 Apr 2001 01:32:30 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id XAA28106; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:56:57 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:08:38 +0200 From: Anna Giontella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: WEstern Religion Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C0C64C.712F18E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type> <META content="MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>cara carolyn � di grande interesse leggere Virgilio in chiave misterica e rintracciare i legami con la western religion, pu� essere di conferma una lettura esoterica delle Bucoliche e delle Georgiche: penso ai temi magici di cui mi sto occupando ora. Grazie, attendo di leggere estratti del tuo lavoro anna giontella</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED]>Carolyn Eberle</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]"; [EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 16, 2001 3:11 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> VIRGIL: WEstern Religion</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> <P>I have been assigned to write a paper on the Aeneid (and virgil in generals) influence upon the philosphy of western religion, any advice/info you could send me would be great. Thanks.</P> <P>Carolyn<BR><BR></P></DIV><BR clear=all> <HR> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <A href="http://explorer.msn.com";>http://explorer.msn.com</A><BR> <P></P>----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Apr 16 09:47:21 2001 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:11:29 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id IAA13802; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:37:33 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:35:28 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Hellenism and the Harvard School Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 09:54 AM 4/14/01 -0400, A.J. Rose wrote: >If Sidney is consciously echoing Virgil's "darker" tones, why the failure of >Renaissance epic critics to "hear" it? Perhaps epic itself tends to be read >as simply heroic?, or did until a somewhat more psychologically sophisticated >age? I'm resistant to the idea that we live in a more psychologically sophisticated age (though perhaps we do live in a more psychologically _troubled_ age). But your comment on the bucolic tradition is really suggestive. The answer, I suspect, has something to do with the history of that tradition in medieval and renaissance Europe, namely, that it becomes a an established vehicle for political and ecclesiastical _satire_. (Helen Cooper's book on pastoral offers a clear overview of this phenomenon.) The satirical tradition may be post-classical, but once it gets going it's easy enough to find precedents for it in Virgil's Eclogues (esp. 1 and 9), and that's probably what Sidney is doing. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Apr 16 09:47:53 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:40:10 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id JAA19239; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:11:45 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:11:12 +0000 From: Carolyn Eberle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: WEstern Religion Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html Precedence: bulk X-Originating-IP: [209.172.222.109] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Apr 2001 15:11:12.0501 (UTC) FILETIME=[79571A50:01C0C687] X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><html><DIV> <P>I have been assigned to write a paper on the Aeneid (and virgil in generals) influence upon the philosphy of western religion, any advice/info you could send me would be great. Thanks.</P> <P>Carolyn<BR><BR></P></DIV><br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href="http://explorer.msn.com";>http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p></html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Apr 16 12:47:08 2001 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:15:32 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id LAA13391; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:42:18 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:42:06 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Western Religion Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 03:11 PM 4/16/01 +0000, Carolyn Eberle wrote: >I have been assigned to write a paper on the Aeneid (and Virgil in general) >influence upon the philosphy of western religion, any advice/info you could >send me would be great. Thanks. 1. Think about concentrating on Virgil's underworld (book 6) or the reception of Eclogue 4. 2. Have a look at one or more of the following. If you know French, start with these: Courcelle, Pierre. "Les ex�g�ses chr�tiennes de la quatri�me Eglogue." Revue des �tudes anciennes 59 (1957): 294-319. Courcelle, Pierre. "Les p�res de l'�glise devant les enfers virgiliens." Archives d'histoire doctrinale et litt�raire du moyen age 30 (1955): 5-74. Courcelle, Pierre. Lecteurs pa�ens et lecteurs chr�tiens de l'En�ide. M�moires de l'acad�mie des inscriptions et belles lettres, n.s. 4. Paris: Institut de France, 1984, 1989. Part 1: Les t�moignages litt�raires (1984). Part 2: Les manuscrits illustr�s de l'En�ide du Xe au XVe si�cle (1989). If not, try: Bennett, Camille. "The Conversion of Vergil: The Aeneid in Augustine's Confessions." Revue des �tudes augustiniennes 34 (1988): 47-69. Coffin, H. C. "The Influence of Vergil on St. Jerome and on St. Augustine." Classical Weekly 17 (1924): 170-75. Hagendahl, Harald. Augustine and the Latin Classics. 2 vols. Stockholm: Elanders Boktryckeri Aktiebolag, 1967. 2: 384-463. Hagendahl, Harald. The Latin Fathers and the Classics: A Study on the Apologists, Jerome and Other Christian Writers. Studia Graeca et Latina Gothoburgiensia 6. G�teborg: Institute of Classical Studies, University of G�teborg, 1958. MacCormack, Sabine. The Shadows of Poetry: Vergil in the Mind of Augustine. Transformation of the Classical Heritage 26. Berkeley and Los Angeles: U of California P, 1998. Nisbet, R. G. M. "Virgil's Fourth Eclogue: Easterners and Westerners." Bulletin of the Institute of Classical Studies 25 (1978): 59-78. Rpt. idem, Collected Papers on Latin Literature, ed. S. J. Harrison (Oxford: Clarendon, 1995), 47-75. O'Donnell, James J. "Augustine's Classical Readings." Recherches augustiniennes 15 (1980): 144-75. O'Meara, John J. "Vergil and Augustine: The Roman Background to Christian Sexuality." Augustinus 13 (1968): 307-26. There's also plenty of material in German; see http://virgil.org/bibliography under "Late Antiquity." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Apr 16 16:36:22 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:17:53 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id MAA22624; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:35:44 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:35:07 -0400 (EDT) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Western Religion Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 129 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] please don't send me this stuff! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Apr 17 08:32:18 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:26:06 CDT Received: from jiscmail.ac.uk ([130.246.192.50]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id VAA10461; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:26:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from jiscmail (jiscmail.ac.uk) by jiscmail.ac.uk (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:25:43 +0100 Received: from JISCMAIL.AC.UK by JISCMAIL.AC.UK (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8d) with spool id 3005270 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:25:42 +0100 Received: from ori.rl.ac.uk by jiscmail.ac.uk (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:25:41 +0100 Received: from somail.suac.ac.jp (somail.suac.ac.jp [202.223.132.34]) by ori.rl.ac.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3H3U7S02227 for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 04:30:08 +0100 Received: from sfw ([202.223.132.33]) by somail.suac.ac.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W) with SMTP id MAA23907 for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:26:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from simail.is.suac.ac.jp ([172.16.8.68]) by sfw.suac.ac.jp; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:26:00 +0000 (JST) Received: from c0604 ([172.16.65.182]) by simail.suac.ac.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W) with ESMTP id MAA09679 for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:25:11 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:36:17 +0900 From: "Steven J. Willett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Reference to FQ In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: Sidney-Spenser Discussion List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: Sidney-Spenser Discussion List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Priority: normal References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 16 Apr 2001, at 14:42, tom bishop wrote: > At what point were the "pro�mic" lines fronting the Aeneid detached > from the poem, and what name, if any, did they go by afterwards? My > history of Virgil scholarship is pretty sketchy. I know Ovid and > Martial took "arma virumque" etc. to be the opening of the poem. But > Servius knew the introductory lines too, and they're not entirely > unVirgilian. See _Virgilio Eneide_, ed. Ettore Paratore, vol. 1 app. crit to l. 1 and its commentary pp. 123-27 for a full discussion of all the issues. Aelius Donatus (vita Vergilii) and Servius (praef. IV) testify that the four lines beginning "Ille ego..." prefaced the opening "Arma virumque... ." Varius removed or cancelled them. (1) The complete silence of the major manuscript tradition about the proem, (2) the fact that the principle writers following Vergil always cite the proem separately from "Arma virumque" and (3) the inappropriately intimate or familiar tone of the lines have convinced most scholars that they are apocryphal. The absence of the proem in the manuscript tradition suggests it never prefaced the Aeneid or was was removed very early in the transmission. ====================================== Steven J. Willett Shizuoka University of Art and Culture Dept. of International Culture, Faculty of Cultural Policy 1794-1 Noguchi Hamamatsu City, Japan 430-8533 Tel/Autofax: (53) 457-6142 Japan email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] US email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Apr 17 08:32:35 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 17 Apr 2001 05:08:29 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id DAA18086; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 03:16:35 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:16:28 +0200 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Zimmermann) Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Western Religion Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Bgr1ES18 (E 605? Big grizzly? Bundesgrenzschutz? Brother gruszly?) what's wrong with "this stuff"? "this stuff" is only a good question, and as I see there comes a lot of fertile answers leading to scientific researches. Best stuff, erste Sahne! grusz, hansz http://marvin.sn.schule.de/~latein/eneis6.htm#Sibylle von Cumae [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: > please don't send me this stuff! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Apr 17 08:32:38 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 17 Apr 2001 05:16:40 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id DAA20357; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 03:42:02 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 05:39:20 -0400 From: Matthew D Packard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: WEstern Religion Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Cara Carolyn...fulgente trahit constrictos Gloria curru non minus ignotos generosis... ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Apr 17 08:32:44 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 17 Apr 2001 06:28:26 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id FAA27089; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 05:01:27 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 13:01:09 +0200 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Zimmermann) Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Western Religion Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] David Wilson-Okamura schrieb: > At 03:11 PM 4/16/01 +0000, Carolyn Eberle wrote: > >I have been assigned to write a paper on the Aeneid (and Virgil in general) > >influence upon the philosphy of western religion, any advice/info you could > >send me would be great. Thanks. > > 1. Think about concentrating on Virgil's underworld (book 6) ... d'accord - that might be the main street (or bus stop near a cross road): infernum-purgatorium-caelum would be one road (leading Dante); nekya-katabasis (Odysseia 11); Aeneis 6 - katabasis in Mythology and Religion for saving of died persons: Gilgamesh (Sumerian, Babylonian), Orpheus and Jesus, Innana/Ishtar (Syrian, Babylonian) and Maria (East-European Christian poems). The soma-sema (corpus-carcer) analogy would be another road: Platon, Kratylos 400 (orphic old word: soma=sema) Cicero, Somnium Scipionis (De re publica 6,14: corpus-carcer) and going on in series of alliterations: Maro, Aeneis 6,731 ff (clausae tenebris et carcere caeco) Augustinus, De civitate Dei 14,3 (corpus-carcer, corruptio corporis, caro corruptibilis) etc. grusz, hansz http://home.t-online.de/home/hanumans/qu.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Apr 18 07:50:01 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:53:55 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id JAA07277; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:58:44 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:58:28 -0400 From: "Heslin, Dr. Tom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: VIRGIL: Western Religion Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Can anyone give me any references concerning the anti-intellectual bias in the Aeneid? ("quidquid id est timeo Danaos et dana ferentes.") Tom Heslin -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 7:01 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Western Religion David Wilson-Okamura schrieb: > At 03:11 PM 4/16/01 +0000, Carolyn Eberle wrote: > >I have been assigned to write a paper on the Aeneid (and Virgil in general) > >influence upon the philosphy of western religion, any advice/info you could > >send me would be great. Thanks. > > 1. Think about concentrating on Virgil's underworld (book 6) ... d'accord - that might be the main street (or bus stop near a cross road): infernum-purgatorium-caelum would be one road (leading Dante); nekya-katabasis (Odysseia 11); Aeneis 6 - katabasis in Mythology and Religion for saving of died persons: Gilgamesh (Sumerian, Babylonian), Orpheus and Jesus, Innana/Ishtar (Syrian, Babylonian) and Maria (East-European Christian poems). The soma-sema (corpus-carcer) analogy would be another road: Platon, Kratylos 400 (orphic old word: soma=sema) Cicero, Somnium Scipionis (De re publica 6,14: corpus-carcer) and going on in series of alliterations: Maro, Aeneis 6,731 ff (clausae tenebris et carcere caeco) Augustinus, De civitate Dei 14,3 (corpus-carcer, corruptio corporis, caro corruptibilis) etc. grusz, hansz http://home.t-online.de/home/hanumans/qu.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Apr 18 07:50:15 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 18 Apr 2001 03:06:09 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id BAA20858; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 01:43:20 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:43:02 +0200 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Zimmermann) Subject: RE: VIRGIL: Western Religion Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Heslin, Dr. Tom schrieb: > Can anyone give me any references concerning the anti-intellectual bias in > the Aeneid? ("quidquid id est timeo Danaos et dana ferentes.") > > Tom Heslin pardon - what is the "anti-intellectual bias" in the Aeneid? (bias - the Greek word?, like "kratos kai bias"?) I don't find any anti-intellectualism in the Aeneis. She is full of discussion on high level, discussion for example of the historical concept of Polybios; of the cosmological concept of Platon (with Orphical and Pythagorean religious roots) and Stoa; of Stoic ethics and duty-conflicts. And we find an aesthetic discussion in her existence, for Maro had to fight with his own neoteric roots and with a stuff that matches more to tragoidia than to epos. But Maro has a good consciousness about "epos" (and that's maybe the reason, why he didn't wish to sing one): compare Gilgamesh-, Mahabharata-, Odysseia-, Perceval-Epos. They all have this eschatological gate, wise background, practical realism (founding towns, establishing states), and of course noble fight as "father of all things" (Herakleitos) - as strange world for us. We would not even write a novel in verses (hexametron...), would you? grusz, hansz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Apr 18 07:50:20 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 18 Apr 2001 03:42:57 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id CAA24234; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 02:21:12 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:19:59 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Western Religion In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Hans Zimmermann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > We would not even write a >novel in verses (hexametron...), would you? Pushkin did: Evgenij Onegin even bears the subtitle 'Roman v stixax'. The metre to be sure is not the hexameter, but it is the staple metre of Russian high poetry. Leofranc *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Apr 18 09:44:30 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:44:04 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id HAA25028; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 07:51:19 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:12:28 +0200 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hans Zimmermann) Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Western Religion Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.34 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Leofranc Holford-Strevens schrieb: > In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Hans Zimmermann > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > > > We would not even write a > >novel in verses (hexametron...), would you? > > Pushkin did: Evgenij Onegin even bears the subtitle 'Roman v stixax'. > The metre to be sure is not the hexameter, but it is the staple metre of > Russian high poetry. then also Lord Byron, Goethe (Hermann und Dorothea, Reineke Fuchs - Hexameter!), (if we don't go back further to Klopstock, "Messias" or Milton, "Paradise lost" ...) - but they are not "we" (most of us born in the 20th century); more near to "us": Alfred D�blin, "Manas" (1927); or Shri Aurobindo, "Sawitri" (1975) - both with Indian titles, more connected to Sanskrit classics than to Greek and Latin tradition. And who knows how many German Latinteachers hide their thick big grand own hexametrical poems in secret drawers of their writingtable, or under the bed in the dust-wool near by the sock with the coins (or the pissputt)? grusz, hansz P.S.: Each of the nine books of "Onegin" has a motto. Motto of the second book is: O rus! Horaz O Russia! This funny-short "O rus!" (Horaz) is taken from the satura (sermo) about rural and urban life (serm. 2,6,60 - short before the fabula of rural mouse and urban mouse). The wonderful "translation" "O Russia" is Pushkin's nice joke. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Apr 18 16:49:02 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:35:33 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id PAA08033; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:03:45 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 01:03:12 +0400 From: Marina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Virgil Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.46c) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Precedence: bulk X-Authorized: marinaspb X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] I will be very grateful if anyone answers me. Maybe anyone knows something about compounds in Latin? I've found a lot about greek ones (such as deirotomeo,etc), but I failed in Latin. And what about Virgil's attitude to compound words? As far as I know he followed greek epic style examples, so he might use compounds as well. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Apr 18 21:58:50 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 18 Apr 2001 18:15:16 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id QAA23037; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:50:54 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:50:22 +0000 From: pieter zoon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: An Introduction to Latin..? Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html Precedence: bulk X-Originating-IP: [64.228.197.75] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Apr 2001 22:50:22.0317 (UTC) FILETIME=[F322E9D0:01C0C859] X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><html><DIV> <P><BR>Hello,</P> <P>Would anyone know of a good book introducing the reader to the basics of Latin? There are no courses in Latin offered at my school, and although I have Spanish to contend with, I would like to begin learning some Latin. </P> <P>Thank you,</P> <P>H. McCann.</P></DIV><br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href="http://explorer.msn.com";>http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p></html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Apr 18 21:59:27 2001 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 18 Apr 2001 18:29:50 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id RAA24807; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 17:02:18 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 00:01:08 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Virgil In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Marina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >I will be very grateful if anyone answers me. Maybe anyone knows >something about compounds in Latin? I've found a lot about greek ones >(such as deirotomeo,etc), but I failed in Latin. And what about >Virgil's attitude to compound words? As far as I know he followed >greek epic style examples, so he might use compounds as well. > In general, Latin is more hesitant than Greek to coin new words, especially compounds: so much so, in classical times, that compounds in -fer or -ger count as poetical when their Greek counterparts in -ph�ros would be prosaic. The archaic poets are bolder; Vergil is more restrained, and there is always the possibility that when he uses such a word as _auricomus_(see Aeneid 6. 141) he did not directly calque it on chrys�komos/chrysok�mes, but found it in (say) Ennius, of whom so little survives. However, if you consult, say, the pages of Norden's commentary on _Aeneid_ 6 indicated in the index under 'Adjectiva composita' (p. 472), you will get a feel for what he is willing to do. Verb-forms like deirotomeo, strictly not compounds but decomposita (parasyntheta), derivatives of compounds, are very characteristic of Greek; they are far rarer in Latin (the Latin for deirotomeo, for instance, is iugulo). Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Apr 20 13:31:39 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:10:21 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id LAA23630; Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:32:06 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 11:38:57 +0100 From: andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Re : Augustus and the principate in Virgil's Aeneid Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 Content-type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] >... three prophecy scenes in the Aeneid: prophecy of Jupiter, = >Prophecy of Anchises, The Shield. All three relate to augustus, but how = >is the history significant for example in the "Parade of heroes?" Surely the fact that it's the parade of Roman (ie future to Aeneas, historical to Virgil and us) Heroes that ties it in with the 'history' theme? The most interesting thing (I think) about Augusts in the parade is that he is referred to as a "Rex Romana" (the exact quote is something like "carrying the staffs and sceptres of a Roman king", and occurs about half way through). The word 'rex' is ambiguous - both in Virgil, and for the Romans generally. J.Caesar's great mistake as to appear a king; and the Aeneadi who 'rushed into the sword for liberty (pro-libertate)' in BkVIII were definitely anti-rex (the rex in question being the final Tarquin). But kings can be both good and bad. On the one hand, Evander is a rex - and he's portrayed as a wise ruler; 'pius' to state, family and gods (as required); a hospitable a host; an intelligent father figure - the 'senex' to Aeneas' 'vir'. But on the other hand, so is Mezentius - the tyrant who crushed his city beneath a 'regio superbo'. I wonder if this is a way in to understanding Virgil's views of the principate : If you are a 'rex', you can serve your people (and yourself) well and be good ruler, following the example of Saturn - 'pacem imponere', 'debellare superbos' etc.; or, you can go the other way and became an evil, hubristic villain. So the principate could be a good thing for Rome, or it could be bad - and which it was to be would depend on what Augustus himself chose to do. -andrew ormerod ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Apr 21 09:28:01 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 21 Apr 2001 03:48:06 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id CAA06306; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 02:17:42 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 04:17:07 -0400 (EDT) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VIRGIL: (no subject) Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_b7.d5dbcc3.28129c03_boundary" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-html><HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>How can i get taken off this list serve, or group (virgil.org)? If you can <BR>tell me, I'd appreciate it greatly. Thank you, Alice Broughton Cox</FONT></HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Apr 21 10:08:15 2001 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:07:01 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id IAA00042; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:32:59 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 09:30:51 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: (no subject) In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] <x-rich>At 04:17 AM 4/21/01 -0400, you wrote: >>>> <excerpt><fontfamily><param>arial</param><smaller>How can i get taken off this list serve, or group (virgil.org)? If you can tell me, I'd appreciate it greatly. Thank you, Alice Broughton Cox</smaller> </fontfamily></excerpt><fontfamily><param>arial</param><<<<<<<< </fontfamily>It's done. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub </x-rich> From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Apr 21 10:56:06 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:41:42 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id IAA01431; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:49:23 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 09:49:07 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: status of "Ille ego" in the renaissance Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Some time ago we talked about the authorship of the "Ille ego" lines that were (according to the ancient grammarians) affixed to the beginning of the Aeneid. Jim O'Hara gave a concise summary of the issues involved, which I immediately printed out and filed. This last week the subject came up again on the Sidney-Spenser list; excerpts from that discussion follow. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:56:16 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Status of "Ille ego..." in the renaissance Sender: Sidney-Spenser Discussion List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 02:15 PM 4/17/01 -0500, Tom Bishop wrote: >>> At what point were the "pro�mic" lines fronting the Aeneid detached >>> from the poem, and what name, if any, did they go by afterwards? My >>> history of Virgil scholarship is pretty sketchy. I know Ovid and >>> Martial took "arma virumque" etc. to be the opening of the poem. But >>> Servius knew the introductory lines too, and they're not entirely >>> unVirgilian. The standard work on the text of Virgil in the sixteenth century was J. Pierius Valerianus, Castigationes et varietates Virgilianae lectionis (1521; repeatedly reprinted in annotated editions of Virgil's text). Valerianus points out that the "Ille ego" verses are controversial and testifies that "insofar as the ancient manuscripts are concerned, I have discovered none so far in which the Aeneid begins with these verses -- though in some codices they have been added separately by a later hand (postscripti)." (As it happens, this manuscript layout was fairly common; there's a reproduction of a twelfth-century exemplar in Christopher Baswell, Virgil in Medieval England [1995], pp. 43.) Valerianus, however, thinks that the "Ille ego" verses are probably Virgilian, and says that most people (bona hominum pars) think as he does. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:19:51 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: More on status of "Ille ego..." in the renaissance Sender: Sidney-Spenser Discussion List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 10:46 AM 4/19/01 +0900, Steven J. Willett wrote: >A more interesting question than Spenser's view of the proemium is >the rationale for including it in early editions, such as the one above. >Do the editors address the issue or give any explanation? If the >main editions he would have read printed the quatrain, then he's >likely to have accepted it despite the absence of any MS support. For Pierius, the rationale seems to be twofold: 1. An ancient biographer (A. Donatus) and an ancient commentator (Servius) both attribute the lines to Virgil. (This is implicit in his discussion of the history of the proem, which he cribs from one or both of the aforementioned scholiasts.) 2. Like the end of the Georgics (which quotes the opening of the Eclogues), the "Ille ego" lines serve to (a) identify the author and (b) connect the Aeneid with his previous efforts, "binding it to the previous pair, so that it forms one body, knit together, as it were, by an indissoluble bond." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:52:37 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: More on status of "Ille ego..." in the renaissance Sender: Sidney-Spenser Discussion List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> A couple more things about the status of "Ille ego" in the sixteenth century: 1. Phaer includes the "Ille ego" lines in his translation of Aen. 1-7. 2. In the editions that I have looked at, these lines are not distinguished, typographically or otherwise, from the rest of the text. (To date, I have examined microfilms of the first edition of Phaer's translation, 1558, and the first edition of the complete Phaer-Twyne translation, 1584.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:34:51 -0500 From: Thomas Herron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: More on status of "Ille ego..." in the renaissance Sender: Sidney-Spenser Discussion List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Richard Stanyhurst (c. 1581/2) also has it, and takes points for style: I that in old season wyth reeds oten harmonye whistled My rural sonnet; from forrest flitted (I) forced Thee sulcking swincker thee soyle, thoghe craggie, to sunder. A labor and a trauaile too plowswayns hertelye welcoom. Now manhod and garbroyls I chaunt, and martial horror. I blaze the captayne first from Troy cittye repairing... Ed. D. Van der Haar (Amsterdam 1933). --TH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:42:02 -0400 From: Anne Prescott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: More on status of "Ille ego..." in the renaissance Sender: Sidney-Spenser Discussion List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Godamighty, Thomas. When I heard your *brilliant* paper on Stanyhurst I decided I had underestimated him. I still believe, I really do. But "sulcking swincker"? Still, this is one to print out and file with notes on the opening of the Faerie Queene. Next time I teach Spenser I will recite it with a straight face. Promise. Anne. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Apr 23 08:18:08 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Sat, 21 Apr 2001 19:52:17 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id SAA28840; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 18:23:58 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 20:19:16 -0400 From: Matthew D Packard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: (no subject) Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Hey Dave... What's this all about??? On Sat, 21 Apr 2001 09:30:51 -0500 David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Apr 25 10:50:39 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Wed, 25 Apr 2001 07:09:36 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id FAA07160; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 05:14:16 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:25:25 +0200 From: Anna Giontella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Re : Augustus and the principate in Virgil's Aeneid Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tutto il mondo magico virgiliano � immaginabile dall'egloga VIII; l'operazione magica incantaria � interpretabile come elemento esoterico misterico sotteso a tutta l'opera virgiliana; Dido � ravvicinabile a Medea.Grazie anna ---- Original Message ----- From: "andrew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 12:38 PM Subject: VIRGIL: Re : Augustus and the principate in Virgil's Aeneid > >... three prophecy scenes in the Aeneid: prophecy of Jupiter, = > >Prophecy of Anchises, The Shield. All three relate to augustus, but how = > >is the history significant for example in the "Parade of heroes?" > > Surely the fact that it's the parade of Roman (ie future to Aeneas, > historical to Virgil and us) Heroes that ties it in with the 'history' > theme? > > The most interesting thing (I think) about Augusts in the parade is that he > is referred to as a "Rex Romana" (the exact quote is something like > "carrying the staffs and sceptres of a Roman king", and occurs about half > way through). > > The word 'rex' is ambiguous - both in Virgil, and for the Romans generally. > J.Caesar's great mistake as to appear a king; and the Aeneadi who 'rushed > into the sword for liberty (pro-libertate)' in BkVIII were definitely > anti-rex (the rex in question being the final Tarquin). > > But kings can be both good and bad. On the one hand, Evander is a rex - and > he's portrayed as a wise ruler; 'pius' to state, family and gods (as > required); a hospitable a host; an intelligent father figure - the 'senex' > to Aeneas' 'vir'. But on the other hand, so is Mezentius - the tyrant who > crushed his city beneath a 'regio superbo'. > > I wonder if this is a way in to understanding Virgil's views of the > principate : If you are a 'rex', you can serve your people (and yourself) > well and be good ruler, following the example of Saturn - 'pacem imponere', > 'debellare superbos' etc.; or, you can go the other way and became an evil, > hubristic villain. So the principate could be a good thing for Rome, or it > could be bad - and which it was to be would depend on what Augustus himself > chose to do. > > -andrew ormerod > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Apr 26 09:46:59 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 26 Apr 2001 06:10:44 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id EAA19545; Thu, 26 Apr 2001 04:04:08 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 10:03:34 +0000 From: Bob Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Horse's Blood Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed Precedence: bulk X-Originating-IP: [163.1.103.102] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Apr 2001 10:03:35.0044 (UTC) FILETIME=[27F82C40:01C0CE38] X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] A simile at Georgics 3.461ff refers to the Geloni and Bisaltae mixing horse's blood with milk to curdle the latter, and in the Latin poetic tradition from then on there are numerous references, collected by H.H. Huxley in CPh 1956, to this Scythian (or Thracian, or Sarmatian, or Spanish) practice or that of drinking horse's blood neat. Hdt 4.1 describes the Scythian practice of milking mares and the production of a drink later known as koumiss (see Stephanie West 'Introducing the Scythians...' in Museum Helveticum for 1999), while Scythians are also known as 'mare-milkers' from Homer and Hesiod on. However I have not come across any pre-Virgilian reference to blood in connection with the nomadic diet. Does anyone know of pre-Virgilian sources or of genuine ethnographical evidence for this practice? Many thanks Bob Cowan _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Apr 26 09:47:05 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Thu, 26 Apr 2001 08:44:55 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id GAA02727; Thu, 26 Apr 2001 06:46:43 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:39:22 +0100 From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Horse's Blood In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 4.02 U <5F+CKYUQomUVIsIr63$Pff++gY> Precedence: bulk References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Bob Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >A simile at Georgics 3.461ff refers to the Geloni and Bisaltae >mixing horse's blood with milk to curdle the latter, and in the Latin >poetic tradition from then on there are numerous references, collected >by H.H. Huxley in CPh 1956, to this Scythian (or Thracian, or >Sarmatian, or Spanish) practice or that of drinking horse's blood neat. > >Hdt 4.1 describes the Scythian practice of milking mares and the >production of a drink later known as koumiss (see Stephanie West >'Introducing the Scythians...' in Museum Helveticum for 1999), while >Scythians are also known as 'mare-milkers' from Homer and Hesiod on. >However I have not come across any pre-Virgilian reference to blood in >connection with the nomadic diet. > >Does anyone know of pre-Virgilian sources or of genuine ethnographical >evidence for this practice? One usually associates it with the Maasai of Kenya; I notice that all the parallels in Mynors ad loc. are post-Vergilian. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Apr 30 10:53:59 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 30 Apr 2001 10:48:16 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id JAA28387; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 09:11:18 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 11:11:13 -0400 From: Sarah Mudge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Maphaeus Vegius Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Organization: Brown University MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk X-Accept-Language: en X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] I am curious about any info. regarding Maphaeus Vegius' Thirteenth Book of the Aeneid (the only info. that I have been able to get has been about the Sixteenth century translation by Twyne). Also, what about the Renaissance's general response to Virgil's work: how was his work exposed and considered, if at all? [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon Apr 30 11:55:16 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0010 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from wilsonwork.com ([161.58.154.39]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with ESMTP id <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for [EMAIL PROTECTED] (ORCPT rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED]); Mon, 30 Apr 2001 11:38:51 CDT Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id KAA09547; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 10:15:20 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 11:15:08 -0500 From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Maphaeus Vegius In-reply-to: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk X-Authentication-warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Original-recipient: rfc822;[EMAIL PROTECTED] At 11:11 AM 4/30/01 -0400, you wrote: >I am curious about any info. regarding Maphaeus Vegius' Thirteenth Book >of the Aeneid (the only info. that I have been able to get has been >about the Sixteenth century translation by Twyne). Also, what about the >Renaissance's general response to Virgil's work: how was his work >exposed and considered, if at all? Have a look at http://virgil.org/supplementa/vegio-twyne.htm This is a transcription of the Twyne translation and includes a selected bibliography. On Virgil in the renaissance: see the relevant sections of "Virgil in Late Antiquity, the Middle Ages and Renaissance: An Online Bibliography" at http://virgil.org/bibliography For a general orientation, I recommend (in this order) - the chapters on Virgil in D. C. Allen, _Mysteriously Meant_ (on allegorical interpretations) and Hough, _Preface to The Faerie Queene_ - Craig Kallendorf, _In Praise of Aeneas_ (which has a bang-up chapter on Vegio) and _Virgil and the Myth of Venice_ - Vladimiro Zabughin, _Vergilio nel Rinascimento italiano da Dante a Torquato Tasso_. (Yes, "Vergilio" is correct.) For the tradition of Virgilian epic in the renaissance, start with Colin Burrow, _Epic Romance_ and David Quint, _Epic and Empire_. For Virgil in England, start with John Watkins, _The Specter of Dido_ (on Spenser; he talks about Vegio, too) and Margaret Tudeau-Clayton, _Jonson, Shakespeare, and Early Modern Vergil_. Others will have their own favorites, and I hope they will not hesitate to name them here or quibble with mine. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon May 07 08:35:07 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: 0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 >From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed May 2 13:46:22 2001 Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.8.8) id NAA27369; Wed, 2 May 2001 13:40:43 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f From: "Patrick Roper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Latin for oldies Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 20:40:01 +0100 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-UIDL: 1e12251471560dde2de30a088a329bab Hi, I have recently joined this discussion group and am looking forward to seeing what goes on. I wonder if I might ask for some advice. I started learing Latin when I was nine and stopped when I was sixteen. During the last three of four years of this period we studied Virgil's Aeneid among other Roman works, hence I have some knowledge in this area. Since then I have kept a general interest Latin, mainly through my work in biology which not only involves Classical scientific names, but sometimes Latin descriptions. Much material from earlier centuries was, of course, written in Latin and I have found works from the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries much easier to understand than Classical Latin. I think this is because the later authors are really writing English, French or whatever in a Latin way, using Latin words. Anyway, my question is what do people suggest the best way is of getting my Latin back up to speed at the age of 63 so that I can spend my declining years enjoying Virgil as he should be enjoyed? Are there books that help, for example, or is it just simply a question of practise and familiarity? Thanks for your help. Patrick Roper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
