<x-html><HTML><BODY STYLE="font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>That Aeneas is
associated with false dreams, I also believe cannot be denied. Is this
not just one more example of Vergil's penchant for undercutting a scene fraught
with promise</DIV> <DIV>for Rome's (Aeneas') great destiny with a note of
discord? Why does the golden bough</DIV> <DIV>hesitate (cunctantem, VI,
211) when the hero grabs it? Why does the parade of heroes conclude with
the sad fate of Marcellus? Is it not that the notion of empire and what
is required to create it rests upon: the sacrifice of young men; rulers and
generals whose personas are flawed and imperfect; and the dissemination of not
necessarily true propaganda if it furthers the ends of power?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Denise D-Henry, AP Teacher</DIV> <DIV>Bishop Watterson
HS</DIV> <DIV>Columbus, OHio</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">-----
Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; COLOR: black;
FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>From:</B> Jim O'Hara</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt
Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 26, 2002 12:34 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT:
10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> [EMAIL PROTECTED]</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt
Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: VIRGIL: Did Aeneas inhale?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR><BR>James Butrica wrote:<BR><BR>><BR>> The other
gate is explicitly the exit for uerae umbrae: Aeneas is not a<BR>> uera
umbra or any kind of umbra at all, and presumably therefore cannot<BR>> take
this route and must therefore take the only alternative.<BR><BR>I've never
understood this argument. What is it about the gate of true
dreams<BR>that means that ONLY true dreams can go through it, while the gate of
false dreams<BR>is such that non-dreams can go through it? Didn't Aeneas
cross the river in a<BR>boat made only for shades?<BR><BR><BR>> While
that<BR>> other exit might be used by false dreams, Aeneas is real in this
poem, not<BR>> a dream or a shade. And under what circumstances could we
conceive of Manes<BR>> (which ones? all of them?) converting Aeneas from
human to dream and then<BR>> sending him out not as a true dream but as a
false one?<BR>><BR><BR>I agree with part of the sentiment here: Aeneas is
not literally changed into a<BR>false dream before using the gate ("Captain, we
have to reconfigure your human DNA<BR>using the transporter's pattern buffer
before we can send you through this<BR>Eikonian portal"), because there is no
statement made that only false dreams can<BR>use this gate. I repeat my
claim that the only secure thing we can say is that<BR>Aeneas is somehow
associated with false dreams. This modest claim, that he is<BR>associated
with false dreams, is one I think that cannot be denied.<BR><BR>Those who say
that Aeneas "is" a false dream in some sense are both drawing a<BR>conclusion
from a hint of Vergil's, and also speaking metaphorically.
Others<BR>think the "false dreams" with which Aeneas is associated are the
visions of Rome's<BR>future he has scene, a not unreasonable reading, one also
involving a litte leap,<BR>since the viewer of that future and not the future
scenes themselves are sent<BR>through the gates (Zetzel in TAPA for 1989
actually discusses this reading as<BR>working like a type of enallage--like a
tranferred epithet)<BR><BR>--<BR>Jim O'Hara<BR>Paddison Professor of
Latin<BR>206B Howell Hall<BR>phone: (919) 962-7649<BR>fax: (919)
962-4036<BR>e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<BR>www:
http://www.unc.edu/~oharaj<BR>surface mail:<BR>James J. O'Hara<BR>Department of
Classics<BR>CB# 3145, 101 Howell Hall<BR>The University of North
Carolina<BR>Chapel Hill, NC
27599-3145<BR><BR><BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>To
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</x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Apr 27 09:36:13 2002
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Apr 26 23:36:27 2002
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From: "Denise Davis-Henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Did Aeneas inhale?
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 19:40:34 -0400
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<x-html><HTML><BODY STYLE="font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>I don't know
if Mantovani subscribers are aware of Michael Paschalis' book, <U>Vergil's
Aeneid</U>,</DIV> <DIV>but it includes an interesting discussion of the Ivory
Gate on pp. 225-226.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">-----
Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; COLOR: black;
FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>From:</B> James Butrica</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt
Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 26, 2002 10:45 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT:
10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> [EMAIL PROTECTED]</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt
Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: VIRGIL: Did Aeneas inhale?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>>Latin first. David's notion requires that
"falsa" mean "fictional" but not<BR>>deceptive, false, or untrue in terms of
underlying content. But in the lines:<BR>><BR>> altera candenti
perfecta nitens elephanto, 895<BR>> sed falsa ad caelum mittunt
insomnia Manes.<BR>><BR>>this reading is hard to square with "sed."
The gate of falsa insomnia is said<BR>>to be shining and gleaming, BUT it
sends falsa insomnia. I don't see how<BR>>"fictional but true dreams"
would be sufficiently adversative to the shining<BR>>ivory. I'd expect
"the gate is shiny, AND sends fictional (but true) dreams."<BR>>There is no
such problem with "the gate is shiny, BUT sends<BR>>false/deceptive/lying
dreams."<BR>><BR>>Jim O'Hara<BR>>Paddison Professor of Latin<BR>>
The University of North Carolina<BR>> Chapel Hill, NC
27599-3145<BR><BR>Actually the gate doesn't send dreams at all: it is the Manes
that send the<BR>false dreams (and we have to infer that it is through this
second portal<BR>that they are sent) -- unless (and I assume that Manes is
transmitted<BR>securely here, not Manis) the "falsa insomnia" send Manes toward
the<BR>heavens (false dreams in which one sees ghosts?). Another
grammatical<BR>possibility, that Manes is in apposition to falsa insomnia
("false dreams,<BR>i.e. ghosts"), is scuttled completely by the fact that
"mittunt" would then<BR>have no subject.<BR><BR>The other gate is explicitly
the exit for uerae umbrae: Aeneas is not a<BR>uera umbra or any kind of umbra
at all, and presumably therefore cannot<BR>take this route and must therefore
take the only alternative. While that<BR>other exit might be used by false
dreams, Aeneas is real in this poem, not<BR>a dream or a shade. And under what
circumstances could we conceive of Manes<BR>(which ones? all of them?)
converting Aeneas from human to dream and then<BR>sending him out not as a true
dream but as a false one?<BR><BR>Not that I'm claiming to be any more sure
about exactly what Virgil is<BR>doing here than I am in any other passage
...<BR><BR>James Lawrence Peter Butrica<BR>Department of Classics<BR>The
Memorial University of Newfoundland<BR>St. John's, Newfoundland A1C
5S7<BR>(709)
737-7914<BR><BR><BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>To
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send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message<BR>"unsubscribe mantovano" in
the body (omitting the quotation marks). You<BR>can also unsubscribe at
http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
</x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Apr 27 09:38:59 2002
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Apr 27 07:37:33 2002
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From: "Denise Davis-Henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Did Aeneas inhale?
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 19:40:34 -0400
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<x-html><HTML><BODY STYLE="font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>I don't know
if Mantovani subscribers are aware of Michael Paschalis' book, <U>Vergil's
Aeneid</U>,</DIV> <DIV>but it includes an interesting discussion of the Ivory
Gate on pp. 225-226.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">-----
Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; COLOR: black;
FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>From:</B> James Butrica</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt
Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 26, 2002 10:45 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT:
10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> [EMAIL PROTECTED]</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt
Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: VIRGIL: Did Aeneas inhale?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>>Latin first. David's notion requires that
"falsa" mean "fictional" but not<BR>>deceptive, false, or untrue in terms of
underlying content. But in the lines:<BR>><BR>> altera candenti
perfecta nitens elephanto, 895<BR>> sed falsa ad caelum mittunt
insomnia Manes.<BR>><BR>>this reading is hard to square with "sed."
The gate of falsa insomnia is said<BR>>to be shining and gleaming, BUT it
sends falsa insomnia. I don't see how<BR>>"fictional but true dreams"
would be sufficiently adversative to the shining<BR>>ivory. I'd expect
"the gate is shiny, AND sends fictional (but true) dreams."<BR>>There is no
such problem with "the gate is shiny, BUT sends<BR>>false/deceptive/lying
dreams."<BR>><BR>>Jim O'Hara<BR>>Paddison Professor of Latin<BR>>
The University of North Carolina<BR>> Chapel Hill, NC
27599-3145<BR><BR>Actually the gate doesn't send dreams at all: it is the Manes
that send the<BR>false dreams (and we have to infer that it is through this
second portal<BR>that they are sent) -- unless (and I assume that Manes is
transmitted<BR>securely here, not Manis) the "falsa insomnia" send Manes toward
the<BR>heavens (false dreams in which one sees ghosts?). Another
grammatical<BR>possibility, that Manes is in apposition to falsa insomnia
("false dreams,<BR>i.e. ghosts"), is scuttled completely by the fact that
"mittunt" would then<BR>have no subject.<BR><BR>The other gate is explicitly
the exit for uerae umbrae: Aeneas is not a<BR>uera umbra or any kind of umbra
at all, and presumably therefore cannot<BR>take this route and must therefore
take the only alternative. While that<BR>other exit might be used by false
dreams, Aeneas is real in this poem, not<BR>a dream or a shade. And under what
circumstances could we conceive of Manes<BR>(which ones? all of them?)
converting Aeneas from human to dream and then<BR>sending him out not as a true
dream but as a false one?<BR><BR>Not that I'm claiming to be any more sure
about exactly what Virgil is<BR>doing here than I am in any other passage
...<BR><BR>James Lawrence Peter Butrica<BR>Department of Classics<BR>The
Memorial University of Newfoundland<BR>St. John's, Newfoundland A1C
5S7<BR>(709)
737-7914<BR><BR><BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>To
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http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
</x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Apr 27 09:39:06 2002
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Apr 27 08:12:48 2002
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From: "Denise Davis-Henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Did Aeneas inhale?
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 19:40:34 -0400
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<x-html><HTML><BODY STYLE="font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>I don't know
if Mantovani subscribers are aware of Michael Paschalis' book, <U>Vergil's
Aeneid</U>,</DIV> <DIV>but it includes an interesting discussion of the Ivory
Gate on pp. 225-226.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;
PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">-----
Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; COLOR: black;
FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>From:</B> James Butrica</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt
Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 26, 2002 10:45 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT:
10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> [EMAIL PROTECTED]</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt
Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: VIRGIL: Did Aeneas inhale?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>>Latin first. David's notion requires that
"falsa" mean "fictional" but not<BR>>deceptive, false, or untrue in terms of
underlying content. But in the lines:<BR>><BR>> altera candenti
perfecta nitens elephanto, 895<BR>> sed falsa ad caelum mittunt
insomnia Manes.<BR>><BR>>this reading is hard to square with "sed."
The gate of falsa insomnia is said<BR>>to be shining and gleaming, BUT it
sends falsa insomnia. I don't see how<BR>>"fictional but true dreams"
would be sufficiently adversative to the shining<BR>>ivory. I'd expect
"the gate is shiny, AND sends fictional (but true) dreams."<BR>>There is no
such problem with "the gate is shiny, BUT sends<BR>>false/deceptive/lying
dreams."<BR>><BR>>Jim O'Hara<BR>>Paddison Professor of Latin<BR>>
The University of North Carolina<BR>> Chapel Hill, NC
27599-3145<BR><BR>Actually the gate doesn't send dreams at all: it is the Manes
that send the<BR>false dreams (and we have to infer that it is through this
second portal<BR>that they are sent) -- unless (and I assume that Manes is
transmitted<BR>securely here, not Manis) the "falsa insomnia" send Manes toward
the<BR>heavens (false dreams in which one sees ghosts?). Another
grammatical<BR>possibility, that Manes is in apposition to falsa insomnia
("false dreams,<BR>i.e. ghosts"), is scuttled completely by the fact that
"mittunt" would then<BR>have no subject.<BR><BR>The other gate is explicitly
the exit for uerae umbrae: Aeneas is not a<BR>uera umbra or any kind of umbra
at all, and presumably therefore cannot<BR>take this route and must therefore
take the only alternative. While that<BR>other exit might be used by false
dreams, Aeneas is real in this poem, not<BR>a dream or a shade. And under what
circumstances could we conceive of Manes<BR>(which ones? all of them?)
converting Aeneas from human to dream and then<BR>sending him out not as a true
dream but as a false one?<BR><BR>Not that I'm claiming to be any more sure
about exactly what Virgil is<BR>doing here than I am in any other passage
...<BR><BR>James Lawrence Peter Butrica<BR>Department of Classics<BR>The
Memorial University of Newfoundland<BR>St. John's, Newfoundland A1C
5S7<BR>(709)
737-7914<BR><BR><BR>-----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>To
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</x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Apr 26 14:20:17 2002
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From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Tired of being a slave to your boss?? B
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 10:42:12 -1900
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FACE="Arial" LANG="0">.</B> Some choose to operateout of<BR>
their home and work by themselves. Others build a sizable<BR>
organization of 15 to 25 people in attractive business<BR>
offices.<BR>
<BR>
Today our company and our associates have over 126<BR>
million dollars in Money Judgments that we are currently<BR>
processing. Of this 126 million, 25 million is in the form<BR>
of joint ventures between our firm and our associates.<BR>
Joint ventures are where we make our money. We only break<BR>
even when our course is purchased. We make a 12% margin on<BR>
the reports we supply to our associates. Our reporting<BR>
capability is so extensive that government agencies, police<BR>
officers, attorneys, credit agencies etc., all come to us<BR>
for reports.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Many of our associates already have real estate liens in<BR>
force of between 5 million to over 15 million dollars.<BR>
Legally this means that when the properties are sold or<BR>
refinanced our associate must be paid off. The norm is 10%<BR>
interest compounded annually on unpaid Money Judgments.<BR>
Annual interest on 5 million at 10% translates to<BR>
$500,000.00 annually in interest income, not counting the<BR>
payment of the principal.<BR>
<BR>
Our associates earn half of this amount or $250,000.00 per<BR>
year. This is just for interest, not counting principle<BR>
and not counting the compounding of the interest which can<BR>
add substantial additional income. Typically companies are<BR>
sold for 10 times earnings. Just based on simple interest<BR>
an associate with 5 million in real estate liens could sell<BR>
their business for approximately 2.5 million dollars.<BR>
<BR>
92% of all of our associates work out of their home; 43%<BR>
are women and 36% are part time .<BR>
<BR>
One of the benefits of working in this field is that you are<BR>
not under any kind of time frame. If you decide to take off<BR>
for a month on vacation then go. The Judgments you are<BR>
working on will be there when you return. The Judgments<BR>
are still in force, they do not disappear.<BR>
<BR>
The way we train you is non-confrontational. You use your<BR>
computer and telephone to do most of the processing. You<BR>
never confront the debtor. The debtor doesn't know who you<BR>
are. You are not a collection agency.<BR>
<BR>
Simply stated the steps to successful Money Processing<BR>
are as follows:<BR>
<BR>
Mail our recommended letter to companies and individuals<BR>
with Money Judgments. (We train you how to find out who<BR>
to write to)<BR>
<BR>
8% to 11% of the firms and people you write will call you<BR>
and ask for your help. They call you, you don't call them<BR>
unless you want to.<BR>
<BR>
You send them an agreement (supplied in the course) to<BR>
sign which splits every dollar you collect 50% to you and<BR>
50% to them. This applies no matter if the judgment is for<BR>
$2,000.00 or $2,000,000.00.<BR>
<BR>
You then go on-line to our computers to find the debtor<BR>
and their assets. We offer over 120 powerful reports to<BR>
assist you. They range from credit reports from all three<BR>
credit bureaus, to bank account locates, employment<BR>
locates, skip traces and locating stocks and bonds, etc.<BR>
The prices of our reports are very low. Typically 1/2 to<BR>
1/3 of what other firms charge. For example we charge<BR>
$6.00 for an individuals credit report when some other<BR>
companies charge $25.00.<BR>
<BR>
Once you find the debtor and their assets you file<BR>
garnishments and liens on the assets you have located.<BR>
(Standard fill in the blanks forms are included in the<BR>
course)<BR>
<BR>
When you receive the assets you keep 50% and send 50% to<BR>
the original Judgment holder.<BR>
<BR>
Once the Judgment is fully paid you mail a Satisfaction of<BR>
Judgment to the court. (Included in the course)<BR>
<BR>
Quote's from several of our students:<BR>
<BR>
Thomas in area code 516 writes us: "I just wanted to drop<BR>
you a short note thanking you for your excellent course. </FONT><FONT
COLOR="#ff0000" BACK="#ffff00" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00" SIZE=3
PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">My<BR>
first week, part time, will net me 3,700.00 dollars</FONT></FONT><FONT
COLOR="#0000ff" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3
PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> .Your<BR>
professionalism in both the manual and your support. <BR>
You have the video opened doors for me in the future. <BR>
There's no stopping me now. Recently Thomas states <BR>
he has over $8,500,000 worth of judgments he is working on"<BR>
<BR>
After only having this course for four months, Larry S. in<BR>
area code 314 stated to us: </FONT><FONT COLOR="#ff0000" BACK="#ffff00"
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffff00" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
FACE="Arial" LANG="0">"I am now making $2,000.00 per<BR>
week</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" BACK="#ffff00" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
#ffff00" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"
SIZE=3 PTSIZE=12 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">and expect this to
grow to twice this amountwithin the<BR>
next year. I am having a ball. I have over $250,000 in<BR>
judgments I am collecting on now"<BR>
<BR>
After having our course for 7 months Larry S. in 314 stated<BR>
"I am now making $12,000.00 per month and have approximately<BR>
$500,000.00 in judgments I am collecting on. Looks like I<BR>
will have to hire someone to help out"<BR>
<BR>
Marshal in area code 407 states to us "I feel bad, you only<BR>
charged me $259.00 for this course and it is a goldmine. I<BR>
have added 3 full time people to help me after only having<BR>
your course for 5 months"<BR>
<BR>
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X-UIDL: j>D"!<7i!!b-F!!f>n!!
I don't know about you, but this morning I received duplicates of several
messages. Hold on tight! I'm still trying to figure out what happened.
In the meantime, if you have comments or suggestions, please don't reply to
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Listowner
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Dr. David Wilson-Okamura (651) 696-6643 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
English Dept., Macalester College, 1600 Grand Ave., St. Paul, MN 55105
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