<x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY style="MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT: 8pt MS Sans Serif; MARGIN-LEFT: 2px"> <DIV><FONT size=1>Father Owen Lee write Fathers and Sons in the Aeneid or something with a similar title.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT><BR><BR>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/14/02 09:36PM >>><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Hello, </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">I was wondering if listmembers knew of any works which treat the role of fatherhood in the Aeneid, or in classical epic, or in the works of any specific author of epic.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Paul Roche</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">University of Queensland</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu May 16 15:47:43 2002 >From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue May 14 19:46:40 2002 Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.11.6) id g4EJiRm24702; Tue, 14 May 2002 19:44:27 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f X-Originating-IP: [195.93.49.178] From: "Tom Room" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 19:44:19 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 May 2002 19:44:19.0574 (UTC) FILETIME=[BD23C160:01C1FB7F] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-UIDL: =-G"!M~Z!!=!0!!Fgk"! Status: U
<x-html><html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>Hello List,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It has been suggested to me that Virgil was influenced by Stoic and/or Pythagorean philosphy in Aeneid book VI, but since I know very little about these philospohies I can not acertain the valididty of this statement. Therefore I would be extremely grateful if someone could fill in the gaps in my knowledge and give a few examples.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I appreciate any response,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks You,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tom Room</DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. <a href='http://g.msn.com/1HM105301/46'>Click Here</a><br></html> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu May 16 15:47:20 2002 >From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue May 14 13:31:43 2002 Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.11.6) id g4EDQXp20016; Tue, 14 May 2002 13:26:33 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: "Paul Roche" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Fatherhood in the Aeneid/Epic Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 11:36:37 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C1FC04.C64EB440" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Disposition-Notification-To: "Paul Roche" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-UIDL: RV&#!89g!!XI>!!PET"! Status: U <x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Hello, </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">I was wondering if listmembers knew of any works which treat the role of fatherhood in the Aeneid, or in classical epic, or in the works of any specific author of epic.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Paul Roche</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">University of Queensland</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu May 16 15:47:31 2002 >From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue May 14 14:44:56 2002 Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.11.6) id g4EEhOM08077; Tue, 14 May 2002 14:43:24 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f X-Authentication-Warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: "Paul Roche" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: VIRGIL: Fatherhood in the Aeneid/Epic Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 11:36:37 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C1FC04.C64EB440" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Disposition-Notification-To: "Paul Roche" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 May 2002 13:55:44.0015 (UTC) FILETIME=[0A7EB9F0:01C1FB4F] Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-UIDL: 9(D"[EMAIL PROTECTED]"!Hb?!! Status: U <x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Hello, </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">I was wondering if listmembers knew of any works which treat the role of fatherhood in the Aeneid, or in classical epic, or in the works of any specific author of epic.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Paul Roche</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">University of Queensland</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> </x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Jun 14 11:30:05 2002 >From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Jun 13 18:07:59 2002 Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.11.6) id g5DI2gq03823; Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:02:42 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:02:14 +0100 (BST) From: M W Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Did Aeneas inhale? In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-UIDL: Y6K!!nnD!!~\3!!&H##! My suggestion about the Gates of Sleep is that this is a key passage, very carefully integrated into the whole poem, and that sufficient structural clues to the real meaning are provided. The theme of drugs provides one of these clues. 1. INITIATION-PROPHECY. Aeneas, desceding into the darkness, is initiated into a religious cult whose members know of certain great prophecies. 2. CONTROL. Aeneas, the initiate, obeys Anchises, the hierophant. It is by Anchises' choice that Aeneas uses the Ivory Gate. The linkage of the initiate with false dreams is actually part of the initiation ceremony. 3. HIEROPHANT-POET. The voices of Anchises and of V himself merge: it is V rather than A who will lay flowers on the new tomb dug for Marcellus, though A rather than V who can call Marcellus his descendant (884). The description of the Gates (his dictis) belongs to both of the merged voices, one talking to Aeneas, one to us. Aeneas is initiated; so are we. The ideology of the New World Order, based on religion and enlightened imperial power, is laid before us citizens of the Western world: we have never forgotten it, though we may have become critical of it. 4. 'PROSEQUITUR'. Aeneas' partings from Anchises and Dido are linked by the mutually echoing 'prosequitur' verses (476, 898), implying that both he and Dido deserve compassion and also that both of them cherish a false dream. So V and Anchises think of the initiation rather as a sad necessity than as an unmixed good. The danger of the fumes of Avernus and the Kill or Cure nature of the whole process has been made clear all along. 5. INHALATION/POISON/CONVERSION. Drugs appear frequently, linked in the poem to processes of persuasion and in philosophy to Epicurean theories (V always recalls Epi, but never repeats Lucretius' commitment to him) that mental events are physical events. Palinurus, Latinus and Amata are all drugged and all influenced profoundly; so, I think, is Turnus, brutally injected with infernal fumes. Fumes are both benign (Albunea) and terrifying (Amsanctus) - Albunea and Amsanctus form another pair of Gates. The very fact that Aeneas 'passes through the Gates of Sleep' means that he wakes: if he wakes he was in a trance, since he cannot have been normally asleep. So to some extent this is an Epicurean story of religious initiation/indoctrination under the suspect influence of drugs - also of course a post-Epicurean story in which religion turns out to be utterly unavoidable. 6. LETTING THE DOGS OUT. The male heroes, Aeneas and Turnus, have both been indoctrinated by wise (or at least intelligent) women, the Sibyl and Allecto. One pacifies Cerberus, the other injects madness into the Trojan hounds. Both maintain the theme of control by drugs, but both the Albunea/Amsanctus//Sibyl/Allecto pairings reflect better on Aeneas than on Turnus. 7. THE GATES OF WAR. The scene at the Gates of Sleep is peaceful and controlled: the Hierophant keeps control of the situation. The fact that it is he who sends Aeneas through the Gate of False Dreams implies that the cult recognises its limitations. The scene at the Gates of War (VII 607) is correspondingly violent and disordered: Latinus will not act, and the Gates fly open under the terrific blow delivered by Juno and by an angry crowd which follows intoxicated leaders, a blow which leaves both the posts of the Gates and the unwritten constitution of the kingdom ruptured. Two natural but opposite effects of drug use, serenity and violence, are seen; two ideologies show something of their colours. The ideology of Book VI is for educated minds, drawing on history and philosophy, that of Book VII is for the masses, drawing on and enhancing natural fears and moral principles about country, family, property. But the mass ideology has the higher authority: Anchises is a wise spirit, but his authority is very little compared with that of the Queen of Heaven in the fulness of her conviction. The only higher authority, that of Jupiter, has not yet been revealed except in secret to Venus: when Jupiter at last speaks decisively, he will stop the movement that Juno has started but will still make concessions to Juno herself. All this surely amounts to a statement that the Book VI Augustan ideology is somewhat contrived, the work of an intellectual clique and contrary to many normal intuitions: but still it must be preferred to any available alternative. V'S SELF PORTRAIT. Augustus probably knew that the support of V and the intellectual group/clique around him was worth a few extra legions. V, merging himself with his character Anchises and the drug-wielding cult for which Anchises speaks, accepts the terrifying nature of his task: he is an illusionist and a poisoner; also a philosopher and a doctor whose medicine the stricken world must accept. So I think that Aeneas did inhale the toxic fumes and that we, the readers then and now, stand to be intoxicated by the ideology. The above is too long and idiosyncratic or worse, but thanks to the many on whose ideas I've drawn! To go on even longer: in this discussion I believe we should specially celebrate William Warburton, whose 1738 publication 'The Divine Legation of Moses' explained that the Katabasis is an initiation and thereby founded the modern study of Book VI. - Martin Hughes On Sat, 27 Apr 2002, David Wilson-Okamura wrote: > At 08:17 PM 4/27/02 +0100, Leofranc Holford-Strevens wrote: > > (Suppose for instance that the wink theory could > >somehow be made to stand up, why should Vergil wish to play that game?) > > This is a fair question. There are, it seems to me, two reasons to argue > for the wink theory: > > 1. You don't like the alternate, empire-as-nightmare theory but "falsa > insomnia" sounds sinister so you find a benign way of reading it. > > 2. You know that Virgil's contemporaries sometimes resorted to allegory in > order to rationalize the objectionable bits in Homer: not just the > immorality of the gods, but the marvellous in general. You think that > Virgil was trying to write a poem in the Homeric mode, and in this period > that means allegory. For examples, see the first chapter of Michael Murrin, > Allegorical Epic (Chicago, 1980). > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Macalester College Virgil Tradition: discussion, bibliography, &c. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
