This is a MapHist list message. News: If you don't get messages anymore, go to http://www.maphist.nl for news about the new MapHist Forum o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o +
Marcel, Two comments: First, judging the market by looking at the performance of Ortelius maps over the past 30 years would be highly misleading. The early but still common European maps have been among the worst performing maps over the past 20 years, if purchased at retail from dealers. If you were to look at other genre, such serio-comic maps, or many regional 18th, 19th and early 20th Century maps, you will see that the market has in some cases risen by a factor of 5-10 times or more and continue to increase at astonishing rates, in comparison to the broader market. By contrast, the market values of 19th Century American Atlases has fallen in the past decade. I recommend you look at Bill Reese's analyses of the items offered in the Streeter sale and thereafter, which he tracks for roughly 40 years, as one example of map and book price inflation for a different genre (Streeter Sale Revisited--Catalog 257, and one thereafter, I believe). Second, I think you misunderstood my response. At no point did I say that dealers were obligated to respond to the investment question. I said that the client was entitled to an honest response. Stating that "Maps should ONLY be collected for the joy of collecting" is in my mind "judgmental" and not an honest response, for the reasons I set forth in my posting. A dealer should be free too say nothing in this situation, but expecting a dealer to give a misleading answer to avoid the investment topic is wrong. Moreover, I also elaborated that the issue of past, present and future value invariably arises when we are asked to represent sellers who do not know what they have, so it seems an artifice to proscribe commenting on future values to buyers when we give the same sort of advice to sellers. If a client asked me the question "is an Ortelius atlas a good investment at $200,000," my response could take several forms. In most instances, I would recommend to the client that they do a thorough study of the current market and market conditions over the prior 10-20 years if they wanted to evaluate the book as an investment, but I would not do it for them, as I would not want to give "investment" advice. If it were a client for whom I felt comfortable giving the advice, I would insist upon seeing the item in hand or having a thorough written description and my comments would likely include caveats about past performance not being a guarantee about the future. Most importantly, when giving an opinion on the future prospects for a map or atlas, I always state "if its something you will enjoy owning, there is a good chance that this will be the biggest return on your investment, relative to any increase or decrease in value over time." Put differently, I am a believer that only collectors should consider the investment value of cartographic artifacts, because non-collectors will invariably do better investing in something they understand and "appreciate." You say that $200,000 was too much to pay for a 1612 Ortelius Atlas? How can you judge the the correctness of a price without a full description? A complete and perfect old color example of the 1612 atlas, with Parergon and a nice original deluxe binding and good provenance could be seen as under-priced at $200,000 in today's market. An uncolored copy in poor condition would be vastly overpriced at $200,000. I note that you have a number of early Ortelius atlases on your website with prices that could be seen as correlating to the $200,000 range for a 1612 atlas in fine old color etc. While I picked $200,000 randomly, I did so with knowledge that there have been examples of the post 1600 Ortelius Atlas that have traded for more than $200,000 in the recent years, most notably the Christies copy which fetched $420,000 in 2000 and would almost certainly bring a similar or higher price in today's market. There are at least a half dozen copies on the market for over $200,000 at the moment. So the $200,000 question was a real world hypothetical. To clarify, my comment was that spending $200,000 on a 1612 Ortelius atlas was "an investment"--I did not say good or bad. The premise was that spending $200,000 on anything is "an investment" for most people. Its a lot of money and therefore, if an an answer is to be given as to the merits of the "investment", I believe it would not be fair to give the client a misleading answer to the investment question. Barry Ruderman Barry Lawrence Ruderman Antique Maps Inc. 7463 Girard Avenue La Jolla, CA 92037 (USA) b...@raremaps.com www.RareMaps.com (858) 551-8500 Member: Antiquarian Booksellers Association of America International League of Antiquarian Booksellers Gallery Hours: Monday to Friday 9am to 4pm Weekends & Evenings By Appointment ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcel van den Broecke" <i...@orteliusmaps.com> To: "Maphist" <maphist@geo.uu.nl> Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 6:14:07 AM Subject: [MapHist] old maps as an investment? This is a MapHist list message. News: If you don't get messages anymore, go to http://www.maphist.nl for news about the new MapHist Forum o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + I have read with great interest the recent discussion on old maps as an investment or not. There are roughly two positions: that of George Ritzlin who says that enjoyment is the only certain dividend of investing in maps, and that any financial return is uncertain. On the other side, Barry Ruderman states that when a customer asks if the acquisition of a 1612 Ortelius atlas for 200,000 dollars is a good investment, one is obliged to give an answer. (My answer would be: too much). So far, the discussion is an American affair. In my experience of 30 years as a map dealer, the market mainly consists of the US and Western Europe. When the Euro was introduced in 1999, the Euro was worth 0.80 US Dollars. Three years ago, the Euro was worth 1.60 dollars. These differences are greater than any appreciation or depreciation of old maps during that period of time, and deprives the question of this message largely of its meaning. Since my stock almost exclusively consists of Ortelius maps, I may be in a better position than most dealers, to judge price differences over time, in my own sales, and in auctions which are my main source for acquiring new maps. My only standard is price in Euros, (and I have persuaded other Dutch dealers successfully that they should price their maps in Euros if they buy them in Euros, even if this means loss of the US market). I would typically sell an Ortelius world map in the early 80's for the equivalent of 1500 Euros. Prices rose steadily since then and reached their top in 2001 when I would sell a world map for 10000 Euros. Since then the market declined, and prices with it. My average Ortelius world map now costs about 7000 Euros, but I have not sold one since 2005. The cheaper Ortelius maps, like French and German provinces, basically still have the prices which they had in the early 80's. Auction prices show the same picture, and much presently remains unsold. Marcel van den Broecke -- Cartographica Neerlandica http://orteliusmaps.com/ tel. +31 30 2202 396 _______________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist _______________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list Maphist@geo.uu.nl http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
