I agree that CouchDB is not a marketing-decides/sales-sells/engineers-build operation, but I think marketing@ can play a role in defining the features of CouchDB through the figuring out the story of CouchDB. I realise that I might be unique in my position here because my suggestions for marketing@ are implying “I’m prepared to do the legwork on dev@” which isn’t true for everyone else here, so I need to keep that in mind a little better. I also agree that we on marketing@ can’t just dream up something and then hope dev@ builds it, but we can help shape the thinking of dev@ once we have some clearer idea of what that story can be.
FWIW, I don’t think there’d be massive changes, just some rearrangements and some additions and some cuts and mostly story telling on our various media outlets. Best Jan -- > On 11 May 2015, at 07:45, Johs Ensby <[email protected]> wrote: > > Joan and Andy, > “Spreading the word” isn’t marketing. > You should rename the list to promotion@ if you think it is. > I don’t know where the idea that developers are forced to implement > suggestions from the marketing list came from, not from me. > To discuss marketing without ideas on customer value and future features is > turning the clock 75 year back. > I you are so scared of non-erlang programmer discussing features, why do you > have a marketing list? > > Johs > >> On 09 May 2015, at 21:45, Andy Wenk <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Joan, thanks a lot for your reminder. This is very well received and I >> think the majority of people of this thread do understand, that the Apache >> CouchDB project is definitely not comparable to "business". >> >> The goal of the marketing list is more than often defined. This list is for >> spreading the word about CouchDB like with information in the wiki, logo >> stuff, the story of CouchDB, weekly news and so on. As in every Apache >> project, the dev@ mailing-list is THE place to discuss any features for >> Apache CouchDB. >> >> One word to CouchApps. I am very happy about the discussion about >> CouchApps. And I am strongly supporting everyone who is building stuff with >> it. Like smileupps is doing. CouchApps have their historical place in >> Apache CouchDB. But the way we will support CouchApps further - be it the >> naming or sth else - is a completely different story. >> >> So let's separate the topics to the appropriate ML and keep on moving. >> >> All the best >> >> Andy >> >> On 9 May 2015 at 21:25, Joan Touzet <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> One additional data point here. I mention "serious customers" as >>> narrowly defined in this email as the thousands-to-millions of $ >>> customers. CouchApps probably have a place in the lower end of the >>> market, i.e. shared instance users who have lightweight needs for >>> their applications and are customers of IrisCouch or SmileApps. I >>> wasn't trying to say there isn't a market for this :) The business >>> case to be made for them is very different, i.e. razor thin margins >>> across thousands to millions of people. Such an approach wasn't >>> logical for Cloudant - the shared instances don't drive the company >>> like the dedicated instances do. Because of this data I think >>> CouchApps as a primary user story is very hard road to walk for us. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Joan Touzet" <[email protected]> >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Cc: "Mike Broberg" <[email protected]>, [email protected] >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2015 2:26:26 PM >>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp >>>> >>>> Hi Miles, >>>> >>>> DISCLAIMER: I am not speaking as an official representative of IBM or >>>> Cloudant. I have cc'ed Mike Broberg, who can speak for them if >>>> necessary. (I also want him to be aware of what I am saying here). >>>> >>>> *** TL;DR: the people who are willing to spend anywhere from >>>> thousands to millions of dollars on a CouchDB-based solution aren't >>>> interested in CouchApps. I think the discussion to date is missing >>>> this, and as such, is entirely unrepresentative of the current >>>> market for Apache CouchDB. >>>> >>>> The answer is that there are practically no customers of Cloudant/IBM >>>> who are banking on CouchApps for any serious need. Every client that >>>> I can think of - meaning they have a dedicated cluster, and aren't >>>> using the shared cluster service - are using either a traditional >>>> three-tier app server structure (Node.JS, Python, PHP, Ruby, Java, >>>> .NET, etc.) or are doing client-side development on mobile platforms >>>> (iOS + TouchDB, Android + PouchDB) where they are replicating back to >>>> the Cloudant clusters for data exchange. In all of these scenarios, >>>> replication is the "killer feature" for CouchDB, with the REST >>>> interface a close second, and the ease of unstructured JSON data as >>>> a third. >>>> >>>> Cloudant built out a document-level (and field-level!) security >>>> solution for one customer, about two years ago now. While there was >>>> initial interest, performance considerations lead to the solution >>>> being backburnered for further consideration. Even in that situation, >>>> CouchApps weren't the primary concern -- database-level enforcement >>>> of security rules *was*. >>>> >>>> Within Cloudant, perhaps Simon Metson was the primary proponent of >>>> using CouchApps for serious purposes. He used them in the "For >>>> Developers" section of the website to help demonstrate various key >>>> features of the platform, including the new MongoDB-inspired Mango >>>> feature that's now a part of CouchDB 2.0. Diana Thayer (@garbados) >>>> picked up on this and built a documentation framework on top of >>>> CouchApps. This, to me, is perhaps the ideal use of CouchApps: >>>> unsecured content, read-only, displayed in different formats based >>>> upon what the end user needs, and self-hosted by CouchDB (so you >>>> can view the product's documentation using the product itself). >>>> More information on this use is at: >>>> >>>> >>> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-dev/201410.mbox/%3C28603443.66.1414446738764.JavaMail.joant@Joans-MacBook-Pro.local%3E >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Miles Fidelman" <[email protected]> >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 11:21:28 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp >>>>> >>>>> Let's be clear. >>>>> (Good) marketing isn't about selling a solution to folks who don't >>>>> have >>>>> a problem in the first place, it's about it's identifying problems >>>>> for >>>>> which we offer a solution. >>>>> >>>>> And.. it occurs to me that Cloudant has been doing market research >>>>> and >>>>> "real" marketing - perhaps some folks from Cloudant might share >>>>> some >>>>> findings related to CouchDB (as opposed to those that might relate >>>>> to >>>>> their commercial extensions and services)? >>>>> >>>>> Miles Fidelman >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Giovanni Lenzi wrote: >>>>>>> translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them to the public"? >>>>>> or maybe better how to drive dev@ implemented features to the >>>>>> public ? >>>>>> >>>>>> 2015-05-08 16:57 GMT+02:00 Giovanni Lenzi >>>>>> <[email protected]>: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Got it, Joan. Thanks for the useful reminder, considered I am a >>>>>>> total >>>>>>> newbie here, I definitely don't know how decision-making process >>>>>>> is driven. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We will cut the "features" part from this discussion then and >>>>>>> take >>>>>>> it to >>>>>>> the devs@ list >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here we should then focus on @jan's request about the story for >>>>>>> couchapps.. given that until 2 days ago that was somehow >>>>>>> uncertain >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But I think too this is more a user@ topic... isn't maybe >>>>>>> marketing more >>>>>>> appropriate to translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> public"? If you all agree with that, you can move this >>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>> to user@ >>>>>>> or dev@, don't know what is preferable. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2015-05-08 15:56 GMT+02:00 Joan Touzet <[email protected]>: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> PMC hat on... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Reminding you *again* that we should not be using the MARKETING >>>>>>>> list to >>>>>>>> discuss new FEATURES and functionality for Apache CouchDB. We >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> like a company where marketing makes up what they want to do, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> development is forced to implement it. While it's a good idea >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> have a >>>>>>>> feedback loop between marketing and development, I am >>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>> keen to >>>>>>>> not see Apache CouchDB turn into a marketing-driven development >>>>>>>> effort. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you are proposing new CouchDB features, please make those >>>>>>>> proposals >>>>>>>> on the dev@ mailing list. And if you are willing to *develop* >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> *support* those functions - even better. Current CouchDB >>>>>>>> development >>>>>>>> bandwidth is extremely limited, and would best be served by >>>>>>>> helping you >>>>>>>> to understand the current design's constraints, and the >>>>>>>> difficulties >>>>>>>> that may be inherent in what you ask for. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>> Joan >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Giovanni Lenzi" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 4:05:12 AM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A service-trigger feature could be one of the new features of >>>>>>>>>> Couch >>>>>>>>>> apps. >>>>>>>>> if possible, would be awesome :) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> some clear design goals and a very limited set of features to >>>>>>>>>> add >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> CouchDB ddocs and focus on an in-browser tool (add features to >>>>>>>>> Fauxton) >>>>>>>>> that removes the need for new developers to learn git and >>>>>>>>> build >>>>>>>>> tools >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Giovanni Lenzi >>>>>>> www.smileupps.com >>>>>>> Smileupps Cloud App Store >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. >>>>> In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Andy Wenk >> Hamburg - Germany >> RockIt! >> >> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588 >> >> https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc > -- Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/
