Alex, thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts on the topic. I like it a lot and fully ACK.
Jan, I agree with you but at the end I don't see the need for any rearrangements or additions or cuts. For me, it was always clear what the purpose of the marketing list is and you / we already clarified this various times in this and the regarding threads. Imho, we just need to communicate this very clearly and with this thread I think it is clear. We could also add some clarifications to the description for the marketing ML on the website if we see a need for it. All the best Andy On 11 May 2015 at 18:53, Jan Lehnardt <[email protected]> wrote: > I agree that CouchDB is not a > marketing-decides/sales-sells/engineers-build operation, but I think > marketing@ can play a role in defining the features of CouchDB through > the figuring out the story of CouchDB. I realise that I might be unique in > my position here because my suggestions for marketing@ are implying “I’m > prepared to do the legwork on dev@” which isn’t true for everyone else > here, so I need to keep that in mind a little better. I also agree that we > on marketing@ can’t just dream up something and then hope dev@ builds it, > but we can help shape the thinking of dev@ once we have some clearer idea > of what that story can be. > > FWIW, I don’t think there’d be massive changes, just some rearrangements > and some additions and some cuts and mostly story telling on our various > media outlets. > > Best > Jan > -- > > > > > On 11 May 2015, at 07:45, Johs Ensby <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Joan and Andy, > > “Spreading the word” isn’t marketing. > > You should rename the list to promotion@ if you think it is. > > I don’t know where the idea that developers are forced to implement > suggestions from the marketing list came from, not from me. > > To discuss marketing without ideas on customer value and future features > is turning the clock 75 year back. > > I you are so scared of non-erlang programmer discussing features, why do > you have a marketing list? > > > > Johs > > > >> On 09 May 2015, at 21:45, Andy Wenk <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> Joan, thanks a lot for your reminder. This is very well received and I > >> think the majority of people of this thread do understand, that the > Apache > >> CouchDB project is definitely not comparable to "business". > >> > >> The goal of the marketing list is more than often defined. This list is > for > >> spreading the word about CouchDB like with information in the wiki, logo > >> stuff, the story of CouchDB, weekly news and so on. As in every Apache > >> project, the dev@ mailing-list is THE place to discuss any features for > >> Apache CouchDB. > >> > >> One word to CouchApps. I am very happy about the discussion about > >> CouchApps. And I am strongly supporting everyone who is building stuff > with > >> it. Like smileupps is doing. CouchApps have their historical place in > >> Apache CouchDB. But the way we will support CouchApps further - be it > the > >> naming or sth else - is a completely different story. > >> > >> So let's separate the topics to the appropriate ML and keep on moving. > >> > >> All the best > >> > >> Andy > >> > >> On 9 May 2015 at 21:25, Joan Touzet <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >>> One additional data point here. I mention "serious customers" as > >>> narrowly defined in this email as the thousands-to-millions of $ > >>> customers. CouchApps probably have a place in the lower end of the > >>> market, i.e. shared instance users who have lightweight needs for > >>> their applications and are customers of IrisCouch or SmileApps. I > >>> wasn't trying to say there isn't a market for this :) The business > >>> case to be made for them is very different, i.e. razor thin margins > >>> across thousands to millions of people. Such an approach wasn't > >>> logical for Cloudant - the shared instances don't drive the company > >>> like the dedicated instances do. Because of this data I think > >>> CouchApps as a primary user story is very hard road to walk for us. > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "Joan Touzet" <[email protected]> > >>>> To: [email protected] > >>>> Cc: "Mike Broberg" <[email protected]>, [email protected] > >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2015 2:26:26 PM > >>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp > >>>> > >>>> Hi Miles, > >>>> > >>>> DISCLAIMER: I am not speaking as an official representative of IBM or > >>>> Cloudant. I have cc'ed Mike Broberg, who can speak for them if > >>>> necessary. (I also want him to be aware of what I am saying here). > >>>> > >>>> *** TL;DR: the people who are willing to spend anywhere from > >>>> thousands to millions of dollars on a CouchDB-based solution aren't > >>>> interested in CouchApps. I think the discussion to date is missing > >>>> this, and as such, is entirely unrepresentative of the current > >>>> market for Apache CouchDB. > >>>> > >>>> The answer is that there are practically no customers of Cloudant/IBM > >>>> who are banking on CouchApps for any serious need. Every client that > >>>> I can think of - meaning they have a dedicated cluster, and aren't > >>>> using the shared cluster service - are using either a traditional > >>>> three-tier app server structure (Node.JS, Python, PHP, Ruby, Java, > >>>> .NET, etc.) or are doing client-side development on mobile platforms > >>>> (iOS + TouchDB, Android + PouchDB) where they are replicating back to > >>>> the Cloudant clusters for data exchange. In all of these scenarios, > >>>> replication is the "killer feature" for CouchDB, with the REST > >>>> interface a close second, and the ease of unstructured JSON data as > >>>> a third. > >>>> > >>>> Cloudant built out a document-level (and field-level!) security > >>>> solution for one customer, about two years ago now. While there was > >>>> initial interest, performance considerations lead to the solution > >>>> being backburnered for further consideration. Even in that situation, > >>>> CouchApps weren't the primary concern -- database-level enforcement > >>>> of security rules *was*. > >>>> > >>>> Within Cloudant, perhaps Simon Metson was the primary proponent of > >>>> using CouchApps for serious purposes. He used them in the "For > >>>> Developers" section of the website to help demonstrate various key > >>>> features of the platform, including the new MongoDB-inspired Mango > >>>> feature that's now a part of CouchDB 2.0. Diana Thayer (@garbados) > >>>> picked up on this and built a documentation framework on top of > >>>> CouchApps. This, to me, is perhaps the ideal use of CouchApps: > >>>> unsecured content, read-only, displayed in different formats based > >>>> upon what the end user needs, and self-hosted by CouchDB (so you > >>>> can view the product's documentation using the product itself). > >>>> More information on this use is at: > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-dev/201410.mbox/%3C28603443.66.1414446738764.JavaMail.joant@Joans-MacBook-Pro.local%3E > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: "Miles Fidelman" <[email protected]> > >>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 11:21:28 AM > >>>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp > >>>>> > >>>>> Let's be clear. > >>>>> (Good) marketing isn't about selling a solution to folks who don't > >>>>> have > >>>>> a problem in the first place, it's about it's identifying problems > >>>>> for > >>>>> which we offer a solution. > >>>>> > >>>>> And.. it occurs to me that Cloudant has been doing market research > >>>>> and > >>>>> "real" marketing - perhaps some folks from Cloudant might share > >>>>> some > >>>>> findings related to CouchDB (as opposed to those that might relate > >>>>> to > >>>>> their commercial extensions and services)? > >>>>> > >>>>> Miles Fidelman > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Giovanni Lenzi wrote: > >>>>>>> translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them to the public"? > >>>>>> or maybe better how to drive dev@ implemented features to the > >>>>>> public ? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 2015-05-08 16:57 GMT+02:00 Giovanni Lenzi > >>>>>> <[email protected]>: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Got it, Joan. Thanks for the useful reminder, considered I am a > >>>>>>> total > >>>>>>> newbie here, I definitely don't know how decision-making process > >>>>>>> is driven. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> We will cut the "features" part from this discussion then and > >>>>>>> take > >>>>>>> it to > >>>>>>> the devs@ list > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Here we should then focus on @jan's request about the story for > >>>>>>> couchapps.. given that until 2 days ago that was somehow > >>>>>>> uncertain > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> But I think too this is more a user@ topic... isn't maybe > >>>>>>> marketing more > >>>>>>> appropriate to translates user@ decisions in "how to drive them > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> public"? If you all agree with that, you can move this > >>>>>>> discussion > >>>>>>> to user@ > >>>>>>> or dev@, don't know what is preferable. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 2015-05-08 15:56 GMT+02:00 Joan Touzet <[email protected]>: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi all, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> PMC hat on... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Reminding you *again* that we should not be using the MARKETING > >>>>>>>> list to > >>>>>>>> discuss new FEATURES and functionality for Apache CouchDB. We > >>>>>>>> are > >>>>>>>> not > >>>>>>>> like a company where marketing makes up what they want to do, > >>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>> development is forced to implement it. While it's a good idea > >>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>> have a > >>>>>>>> feedback loop between marketing and development, I am > >>>>>>>> especially > >>>>>>>> keen to > >>>>>>>> not see Apache CouchDB turn into a marketing-driven development > >>>>>>>> effort. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> If you are proposing new CouchDB features, please make those > >>>>>>>> proposals > >>>>>>>> on the dev@ mailing list. And if you are willing to *develop* > >>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>> *support* those functions - even better. Current CouchDB > >>>>>>>> development > >>>>>>>> bandwidth is extremely limited, and would best be served by > >>>>>>>> helping you > >>>>>>>> to understand the current design's constraints, and the > >>>>>>>> difficulties > >>>>>>>> that may be inherent in what you ask for. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Best regards, > >>>>>>>> Joan > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>> From: "Giovanni Lenzi" <[email protected]> > >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2015 4:05:12 AM > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: the future of couchapp > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> A service-trigger feature could be one of the new features of > >>>>>>>>>> Couch > >>>>>>>>>> apps. > >>>>>>>>> if possible, would be awesome :) > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> some clear design goals and a very limited set of features to > >>>>>>>>>> add > >>>>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>> CouchDB ddocs and focus on an in-browser tool (add features to > >>>>>>>>> Fauxton) > >>>>>>>>> that removes the need for new developers to learn git and > >>>>>>>>> build > >>>>>>>>> tools > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Giovanni Lenzi > >>>>>>> www.smileupps.com > >>>>>>> Smileupps Cloud App Store > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. > >>>>> In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Andy Wenk > >> Hamburg - Germany > >> RockIt! > >> > >> GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588 > >> > >> https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc > > > > -- > Professional Support for Apache CouchDB: > http://www.neighbourhood.ie/couchdb-support/ > > -- Andy Wenk Hamburg - Germany RockIt! GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588 https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
