>>> "The World Socialist movement (via The Socialist Party of Great Britain)" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 11/19/99 10:42PM >>> a) I don't have handlers. One of the advantages of being in a democratic organisation rather than a vanguard/ rank and file red star uniform fetish club. b) I imagine that the work of achieving socialism is done before the revolution, in convincing them of the need and desire to organise for it, rather than during a transitional state at gunpoint. If socialism is so good, why don't you think workers will go for it? If they won't organise before the revolution for it, in a society which has at least some democratic trappings, how the hell do you think you're going to get them to fight for it? c) I imagine that it will be a class conscious majority which achieves socialism. No saints and saviours there. d) I only respond to insults with rational argument. Especially when those insults reveal the mindset of the attacker. Your inability to conceive of other human beings having minds of their own, and coming to conclusions about their society and changing it for themselves, merely throws your own humanity open to debate. And at the end of the day, the difference between a class conscious worker and a vanguardist is that it is the vanguardist who is at a previous stage of history, a potential ruler basing his rise to power on the ignorance of the working class as to their own interests: the possibility for socialism is indicated precisely by the DEATH of vanguardism. (((((((((((((((( Charles: Trouble is you can't claim to be more democratic and close to the working class just by declaring it. I mean I can just declare that I am more democratic than you and closer to the working class than you. Then where are we ? I have many essays on the need for democracy in party organization. Your gratuitous and self-declared superiority to all previous and other parties is not a basis for you to go around talking like it is true. Plus, when you say things like: "b) I imagine that the work of achieving socialism is done before the revolution, in convincing them of the need and desire to organise for it, rather than during a transitional state at gunpoint. If socialism is so good, why don't you think workers will go for it? If they won't organise before the revolution for it, in a society which has at least some democratic trappings, how the hell do you think you're going to get them to fight for it?" It kind of sounds like you are slipping some vanguardism in the back door. Why is it that YOU are qualified to convince the workers to such and such ? Then you say : "a) I don't have handlers. One of the advantages of being in a democratic organisation rather than a vanguard/ rank and file red star uniform fetish club." But the bottom of your posts say: "Only messages signed by a Party officer are considered official communications" Your party doesn't sound quite as free of topdown structure as you keep claiming. Your discussion is alright, but it gets to be a bit fatuous to keep declaring yourself the superior democrat and anti-vanguardist. Charles Brown --- from list [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---