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I understand how difficult it is in the USA. I think it's important to choose battles cleverly. No point in fighting a battle you can't win and where the consequences are horrendous. In the States things would need to be especially assessed very clinically and lawyers etc lined up in advance. It might well be decided that it wasn't a good idea. But I find a lot of the left these days automatically rules things out because they are illegal. It's like in NZ, union leaders say "No, no, we can't have a strike - it's illegal." (Strikes here are illegal outside a very, very limited time-frame around contract negotiations; solidarity strikes and political strikes are illegal. But, sometime, somewhere, some group of workers are going to have to say, "We don't care", and go on strike, otherwise we'll just get pushed further and further back. Personally, I think it should be some group of highly-respected white collar/skilled workers that the state would find it hard to do over.) In NZ, we have possibly the least political and most apathetic population in the entire world. But people also don't like the state coming down on people and the state itself is quite careful. We had three Christians attack one of the big balloon-domes at a spybase and bring it down. They got caught and charged, but public opinion was such they pretty much got let off. Of course, with Marxists it would be different. The state was certainly fully aware that the money was raised - it was done in public and a press statement was put out when the first thousand dollars was sent - but the state never went for the organisation or the individuals who co-ordinated the ACA/WP campaign. They may have decided it wasn't worth giving the organisation the publicity and I think if they had've gone for the organisation or any individuals there would have been lawyers lining up to defend comrades for free. In the end I think the state simply decided it wasn't worth them going after ACA/WP over it. One of the problems with a lot of the left in the English-speaking world is that it has an extraordinary respect for capitalist laws. In the Third World, revolutionaries break the law all the time and think nothing of it. Same in a lot of First World countries outside the English-speaking world. How do they ever expect to overthrow capitalism - after all, that would be against the law!!! (And, let's be clear, I'm not advocating idiotic/provocateur-like Black Bloc actions. I'm simply *suggesting* that the anti-capitalist left needs to *think* about *how* to *cleverly* challenge state prerogatives and laws.) Phil On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 12:57 PM, A.R. G <amithrgu...@gmail.com> wrote: > Did they try to prosecute you? > > In the US there was a massive "counter-terrorism" case called the Holy > Land 5. 5 men in jail for basically the rest of their lifetimes for giving > humanitarian aid to Palestinians that passed through the hands of > bureaucrats that technically worked under Hamas. > > I am all for breaking the law as an act of civil disobedience, but > sometimes the costs are simply not worth it, especially if it triggers > repression against the rest of the community. > > - Amith > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:54 AM, Philip Ferguson <philipfergus...@gmail.com > > wrote: > >> It's also illegal in NZ. >> >> So? >> >> Phil >> >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 12:47 PM, A.R. G <amithrgu...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> It is totally illegal for us in the US to raise money for the PFLP. In >>> fact I believe even certain kinds of statements, advocacy, and services >>> deemed "for" the PFLP can land you in hot water legally. Material support >>> laws. >>> >>> I think one reason that I feel really sensitive about this subject >>> coming up (and since my blog post on Louis' blog it seems like it is >>> dominating the list) is because, as I pointed out previously, I supported >>> Palestine militantly before becoming a socialist. As I mentioned, I did not >>> find Marx, anti-capitalism, or any other more meaningful ways to critique >>> the fundamentals of capitalism until I was in college. I was very >>> disappointed, to be honest, to see that many of the people who claimed to >>> hold leftist, anarchist, and Marxist views seemed to have done it the other >>> way around and that even many who did appear to share my feelings about >>> Palestine often did so in a contingent, asterisk-laden fashion. >>> Nonetheless, I could not avoid the blatant pitfalls and failures of >>> liberals as well as "Libertarians" to engage in structural analysis leading >>> them to hold all sorts of bizarre and misguided views. >>> >>> I do not think there is a purpose, at least right now, in lionizing the >>> left. The left is filled with all sorts of reactionary sentiment. I think >>> it is better to focus on the issues, including Palestine, and push people >>> to become more conscious of the contradictions through issue-based >>> organizing. Marxism, in my opinion, is a guide, not a restriction. >>> >>> - Amith >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:34 AM, Philip Ferguson via Marxism < >>> marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> ******************** POSTING RULES & NOTES ******************** >>>> #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. >>>> #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. >>>> #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. >>>> ***************************************************************** >>>> >>>> >>>> I agree with Louis that it's good if various semi-establishment figures >>>> criticise various actions of the *Israeli government - it opens up >>>> political space, makes it easier for people to raise issues of >>>> solidarity >>>> with the Palestinians. >>>> >>>> Often, though, the anti-capitalist left tries to hook up with anyone and >>>> everyone who appears to be criticising what we're criticising. >>>> >>>> When it comes to the anti-capitalist left, we need to develop >>>> initiatives >>>> centred on solidarity and where the issues are taken to the working >>>> class >>>> and colleges (community colleges and universities alike), and we need >>>> to do >>>> it in a way that advances the class consciousness of workers where we >>>> are. >>>> >>>> In the Anti-Capitalist Alliance/Workers Party in NZ, we prioritised >>>> Palestine solidarity and we initiated a public campaign to raise funds >>>> for >>>> the PFLP. We made t-shirts and Leila Khaled gave us her signature to >>>> use >>>> on them. We raised several thousand dollars for the PFLP, as a concrete >>>> act of solidarity and as a way of challenging the 'terrorist' >>>> designation >>>> that NZ governments - Labour and National alike (and they're very, very >>>> alike!) had put on the PFLP. >>>> >>>> As anti-capitalists I think we need to run a two-track approach in >>>> relation >>>> to Palestine. One is overall support for the Palestinian right to >>>> self-determination and the other is solidarity with the most progressive >>>> forces within that struggle; that happens to be the hard-pressed PFLP. >>>> Whatever criticisms anyone might have on them, they have stuck to their >>>> guns in unbelievably difficult circumstances and deserve material >>>> support. >>>> >>>> For a campaign of solidarity with the Palestinian struggle: >>>> >>>> https://rdln.wordpress.com/2011/12/18/for-a-campaign-of-solidarity-with-the-palestinian-struggle/ >>>> >>>> Is there a two-state solution?: >>>> >>>> https://rdln.wordpress.com/2011/09/09/is-there-a-two-state-solution-to-israel-palestinian-conflict-2/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Phil >>>> _________________________________________________________ >>>> Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm >>>> Set your options at: >>>> http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >> > _________________________________________________________ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
