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OK, so "there’s no way to judge the accuracy of the first statement". So I could be lying. I'm not. And I'm sure you have seen, amongst worse, the "Give the TERF a platform" memes, with the picture of a gibbet. I'm sure you are aware of the concept of the "cotton ceiling" (referencing women's underwear) and the anti-lesbian violent misogynistic statements that circulate around lesbians who refuse to have sex with trans women who haven't undergone surgical transition. These things aren't made up. "Vague accusations of alleged failures by leftists to live up to leftist values has become a standard trope of the alt-right". Point me to a left site that supports the trans agenda but has condemned the misogyny. I'm not saying they don't exist. I'd be really pleased to see the evidence. And please don't conflate my concerns with the alt-right. In Iran gay people can by executed but trans people can access gender realignment surgery. That doesn't make you a homophobe. So guilt by association is a weak argument. So I've just extended a "red-herring-laden “invitations” to debate like this one are so tedious." Feel free to point to the "red herring[s]" that I put out there. But please don't include the straw man quotes that you yourself posted. Having concerns about the hard fought gains made by women over the decades is not 'transphobia'. I absolutely support the right of trans people to live free of discrimination and threats of violence. There are trans people on both sides of this debate. Having concerns that children too young to give informed consent are being prescribed puberty blockers (not fully reversible despite the claims) and in many cases then progressing to a lifetime of sex hormones (linked to some cancers and other side effects) is not transphobia. It should not be left to private clinics to "support gender affirmation" without adequate provision of alternative counseling to make these life changing decisions. I'm concerned that the important rights of a tiny minority seem to require the trading away of a majority (women and girls)'s rights. There should be a way forward that does not involve such a 'zero sum' solution. And it does seem that it's only women, not men, who are being expected to give up these rights. How about properly funded shelters for abused trans women instead of abused and vulnerable women having to share their crisis shelters with people who seem to them to all intents and purposes to be men? Men's, women's and unisex toilets etc. Some of the trans activists I've discussed this issue with have been women, including some lesbians who have no problem with surrendering the women only status of their changing rooms. That's their prerogative. But if this list and my general experience is anything to go by, the Left (in the West where this debate seems most prevalent), is still overwhelmingly male. If that overwhelmingly male Left is deciding that discussion with women over this issue is off limits, it's hardly surprising and unlikely to change. This is not an easy issue but the solution should not be to shut down the discussion. On Sun, Oct 27, 2019 at 12:53 PM MM <[email protected]> wrote: > On Oct 26, 2019, at 5:12 PM, John Edmundson via Marxism < > [email protected]> wrote: > > I have seen > calls for "TERFs" to be raped and murdered (without a squeak from the > leftist allies involved in the same discussion)…. > > > It seriously concerns me that calls for women to be raped and murdered > should be able to go unchallenged by the Left. > > > Without knowing which discussion this was or which “leftist allies” were > involved, there’s no way to judge the accuracy of the first statement. > Calls for violence have no place in these discussions and have been > frequently condemned — including on this list. Vague accusations of alleged > failures by leftists to live up to leftist values has become a standard > trope of the alt-right. It’s the main reason that red-herring-laden > “invitations” to debate like this one are so tedious. > > Meanwhile, I’ll just offer this as my final response on this thread: > > “The current storm around trans people bears all the hallmarks of a moral > panic. Trans people are blamed for a number of – often contradictory – > harms. In 2017, these included corrupting children, changing the English > language and threatening free speech, violence against women and seeking to > both dismantle and reinforce problematic gender norms. > > “The “news” often turns out to be several years old, or based on serious > misinterpretation of what somebody said. Stories frequently include factual > inaccuracies. For example, a story about the proportion of trans sex > offenders was found to be based on false statistics, as were frequent > reports about the number of people who “detransition”, or return to > identifying with the gender they were assigned at birth. > > “This current media onslaught bears a striking resemblance to previous > moral panics, notably the one against gay men in the 1980s. Like trans > people now, gay men then were branded as paedophiles. Any mention of > homosexuality was deemed to risk “turning children gay” in the same way > that there’s now concern that young people will be “turned trans” if > they learn about gender diversity.” > > > http://theconversation.com/a-trans-review-of-2017-the-year-of-transgender-moral-panic-89272 > > -- The law locks up the man or woman Who steals the goose from off the common But leaves the greater villain loose Who steals the common from the goose _________________________________________________________ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
