Hello Marv: These are picking up several points you have made. I have not particularly systematised my responses except in order of your mentioning them.
First - You have asked us to consider whether recent history "call(s) into question why many of us spent a lifetime organizing and agitating for public ownership of our economies and defending the USSR, the PRC, Vietnam, Cuba, Nicaragua etc. from US imperialism. If all we have to show for the result is a retreat to capitalism in these societies, was it worth it?" The answer to this is (largely) completely subjective isn't it? Could be said to be 'philosophical' I suppose. The main aspect of the bracketed comment that does not fit within the rubric 'largely subjective' - arises from a consideration of how long time spans are needed to effect changes in societies. That is more objective and comes to issues of historical materialism. Thus we have certainly had many comments on the list before, that it takes a long time to do this. Moreover, that the transition from feudal economies in Western Europe to capitalism took hundred *s* of years not simply decades. Why should transition from capitalism to socialism be any shorter by a couple of hundred years? In addition is the point that Charlie made, which I believe is a good one. "Revolution is hard'. Lenin has some lines on this including comments like 'revolution is the last resort'. I could not find the particular quote I was looking for, but this I found easier, and carries the same weight: "But they forgot the other reason behind the Russian revolution: Russia had no alternative. The war had caused such destruction and starvation every where, made the people and soldiers so weary, they realised they had been tricked for so long, and that the only way out for Russia was revolution." ( https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/dec/14.htm ) I hope that the final sentence of that para - namely "was it worth it?" - is purely a rhetorical device? Merely as if not - you must be in a severe period of self-doubt. From what I understand of what activity you engaged in, within the Canadian labour movement - this would be quite sad and un-warranted I think. [I hope you understand that I use the phrase ' sad ' not in the 'Trumpian' manner of a belittlement or diminishment etc]. At the very minimum, we all may have helped (I put the ' may ' is in there, merely to be as self-hyper-critical of ourselves as possible) - in having assisted minor to major reforms. No? Did not Grosvenor Square (UK), Kent State etc at least assist the halting of Agent Orange/bombing/maiming etc etc.? True - it did not help Vietnam to go on to the socialism other than a 'paper version' of it. Did not Hungarian demonstrations stop the most blatant form of 'Soviet' social imperialism? One could go on, but the point is made, for what it is worth. You also suggest that: "Those on the list eager to demonstrate that both China and Russia are now capitalist and imperialist powers may not appreciate what a repudiation it is of their Marxist-Leninist politics which can only be described, given the historical record, as utopian." But I think that is not true. True - I don't know exactly the view of Charlie and Dan. But if they did not see it as a potentially important 'repudiation', they might not be arguing the point on 'state' ownership. If I am perhaps seen as 'argumentative', it is precisely because of seeing such a potential 'repudiation'. It is exactly why there has been a furious round of comments surrounding these questions, in one way or another. It is why we appear to be still discussing, whether or not what seems to us (in the 'retrospectoscope') the supposedly dead and long ago answered hoary question - to wit - "Is socialism in one country possible and did it ever happen?" Hari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#29729): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/29729 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/105142448/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. #4 Do not exceed five posts a day. -=-=- Group Owner: marxmail+ow...@groups.io Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/8674936/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [arch...@mail-archive.com] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
