Isp, yes, the ongoing movement to have an uninformed public including uneducated has been going on for decades, at least. And, has been fairly successful as I see it.
On Dec 28, 12:23 pm, Isparklaria <[email protected]> wrote: > Orn, > > Your quote from Goering is very appropriate. It brings to mind the > Gulf on Tonkin incident that allowed Lyndon Johnson to escalate the > Vietnam War and the USS Main explosion that began the Spanish American > War. Both of these incidents were reported falsely in order to > convinve the American public that war as justified. > > In general Americans do not like war and in my opinion would not > attack if for a net gain.Perhaps if the gain was extremely high and > the cost extremely low, the majority of Americans would favor an > aggressive war, then again maybe not. In any case, we don't know > because a fully informed public that has control of the commander in > chief does not exist. We are not even well informed or even adequately > informed. It seems to me that few people are willing too admit how > little they know, so they are unwilling to do the work to become > adequately informed. Of course this is just my opinion and not an > adequately informed one at that. But it is partly informed which I > have good reason to believe is more informed than most opinions. > > On Dec 27, 12:08 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > The US budget for the military has been enormous and for most of us > > bloated for a long time. And, much of it is hidden within other areas > > too. Overall, currently the issue isn’t so much how money is being > > spent as how public monies are being collected. > > > And as to the historic use of the US military, the list is way too > > long to post > > here.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_history_e... > > > When it comes to selling the people on it, if advertising didn’t work > > it wouldn’t exist. However, one of the most telling insights here is > > one from when I was a kid. > > > "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders > > of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple > > matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist > > dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or > > no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the > > leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being > > attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and > > exposing the country to greater danger." -- Herman Goering at the > > Nuremberg trials > > > On Dec 27, 9:34 am, "Jason (Memphis)" <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > The point was that I don't believe for a second that people will avoid > > > war for the noble reasons you originally described (reduce oppression, > > > etc.). Tribes of people (government officials, nations, religious > > > organizations, etc) will war if the cost to that specific organization > > > is not that great and the payoff far outweighs the cost. The neocons > > > probably benefited overall in the Iraq war. > > > > A draft or conscription would probably help deter war because wealthy > > > and powerful people's children would also be put in harms way to > > > protect resources. For example, the neoconservatives would be put at > > > risk of death (or their children) instead of just having other people > > > die to protect their resources. It is quite amazing how a group of > > > old men and a few old women can convince young people to readily died > > > for a cause while those old people sit well out of harms way and don't > > > incur the financial sacrifices. > > > > Jason > > > > On Dec 26, 11:23 pm, Isparklaria <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On Dec 26, 7:24 pm, "Jason (Memphis)" <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > hmmmm....I wonder if an informed citizenry wouldn't just continue use > > > > > the military to increase wealth but not talk about it so openly. > > > > > I don't think Americans would do this at this time. The United > > > > Nations, nuclear weapons and breakdown of international trade would be > > > > additional deterrents for the USA as well as other nations. I also > > > > believe that Americans as a whole don't like war. However, if an > > > > informed citizenry > > > > increased the wealth of all, or at least most, and sacrificed human > > > > lives to do it, it might be crazy and cruel, but at least it would be > > > > more equitible than what we have now. Presently a few thousand have > > > > lost lives of friends or family members, more have been seriously > > > > wounded, nearly all have lost money, by way of the national debt, and > > > > a few have made billions. Or nation as a whole has been severly > > > > weakened. This is not even counting the horrendous situation on the > > > > other side (the Iraqis and Afghanis). It is time to bring the war > > > > profiteers, and their puppets in our goverment, to trial. > > > > > By the way, I forgot to mention General Butler's solution. He > > > > suggested conscripting suppilies as well as soldiers, thereby taking > > > > the profit out of war for arms dealers. > > > > > On Dec 26, 7:24 pm, "Jason (Memphis)" <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > "[The military] of an informed citizenry...will be used for self- > > > > > defense and when feasible to help fight tyranny and oppression." > > > > > > hmmmm....I wonder if an informed citizenry wouldn't just continue use > > > > > the military to increase wealth but not talk about it so openly. That > > > > > seems to be the trend and tendency. I don't think that tendency or > > > > > trend will stop until the bloodlines amongst countries and economic > > > > > ties are so strong that too many informed citizens would be upset with > > > > > the killing of their relatives from the opposing country and wouldn't > > > > > want to risk damaging the economic gains from that opposing country. > > > > > > Jason > > > > > > On Dec 26, 10:18 am, Isparklaria <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > I don't know what Obama plans to do with the military as far as base > > > > > > closures and the size of the standing army. As I see it he has one > > > > > > of > > > > > > two reasonable routes. > > > > > > > 1. He can accept that America has taken the role of worldwide > > > > > > enforcer > > > > > > and do the job right. The first most important step here is to take > > > > > > the army back from control of the international corporations. I > > > > > > believe that war for profit has been the primary force running the > > > > > > American army for well over 100 years. As evidence, here is a link > > > > > > to > > > > > > the book "War Is A Racket," by Major General Smedley > > > > > > Butler.http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html > > > > > > Once the army is following the will of an informed citizenry, then > > > > > > it > > > > > > will be used for self-defense and when feasible to help fight > > > > > > tyranny > > > > > > and oppression. Notice that I said when feasible. Helping others, > > > > > > when > > > > > > possible, does help us, or so I believe. But not when it leaves us > > > > > > overextended. Then it helps no one. Life Guards, for example, are > > > > > > taught not to attempt a rescue that they think is not possible. Why > > > > > > risk two lives. Why run down our military, lose American lives and > > > > > > ruin our economy for nothing. The army must not be dominated by > > > > > > mercenaries. This is one of the things that led to the downfall of > > > > > > Rome. When our sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, cousins and > > > > > > friends > > > > > > are in the army, we will not go to war so easily. When we do, we > > > > > > will > > > > > > have a plan to win with the fewest possible casualties, like > > > > > > Clinton's > > > > > > war in Yugoslavia. If the Commander in chief is failing, he should > > > > > > be > > > > > > recalled. Much of the killing of non participating civilians occurs > > > > > > when the mission is not clear and it stalls, like in Vietnam and in > > > > > > Iraq. > > > > > > > 2. The second approach would be to give up being the world's > > > > > > policeman. Neither the Iraq or Afghanistan wars would have been > > > > > > necessary. The Afghanis were willing to turn Bin Laden and his crew > > > > > > over to a neutral world court. Now they are roaming free. The > > > > > > pressure > > > > > > was working on Saddam Hussein. Inspectors were being allowed to do > > > > > > their jobs. Of course if these wars had been run properly then > > > > > > things > > > > > > wouldn't have turned out so badly and as much as I hate war, I might > > > > > > believe that we did the right thing. > > > > > > > As I see it these are two reasonable options. Both of them are far > > > > > > from ideal, but necessary in the world that we live in > > > > > > > On Dec 25, 10:01 pm, CrossBow <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > No, I did not say anti-military, but any generic reference to > > > > > > > faceless > > > > > > > people as child killers is not exactly positive either. We risk > > > > > > > dehumanize > > > > > > > them like we accuse them of dehumanizing their target enemy if we > > > > > > > drop the > > > > > > > casual killer labels. I believe we agree on most as I said > > > > > > > before, how we > > > > > > > say it is just as important. Curious enough, the old GI benefits > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > mention are in place, and for some, particularly those diagnosed > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > traumatic stress disorder, reprieve has finally come, it is now > > > > > > > formally recognized as an actual medical condition.... > > > > > > > > read more » > > > > > > > > Education benefits are working if you use them. Active Duty > > > > > > > military offers > > > > > > > a GI bill of $50,000 - while not Ivy League, can get you a degree > > > > > > > that will > > > > > > > keep you from re-enlisting if you are done with active duty. The > > > > > > > rest is up > > > > > > > to the individual's drive. I'm not sure that the National Guard > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > decreased or increased, do not have the stats on that, but surely > > > > > > > the border > > > > > > > duty and over seas tours have. National Guard and Reserve have > > > > > > > been on the > > > > > > > rise for years since the decrease of combat troop count, and base > > > > > > > closures, > > > > > > > but more attention has spotlighted them since Bush and 9/11. > > > > > > > What Obama's > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
