On Jan 4, 7:20 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > I see you are attempting to hammer your point home! I'll read the rest > as I can Isp! :)
Yes, Orn, I'll hammer you down for standing out:-). Actually I would agree that Japanese individuals within Japanese society are probably very creative in ways that I have not even thought of. However, I'd like to see those ways defined and then see evidence unless it is self evident. I also want to protest that you took me out of context but I will also give you some slack because what I wrote was not all that clear. But here again, below is what I wrote. Notice that I wrote "in the process of fitting in" as a qualifer as to why the Japanese lack creativty. Notice how I also mentioned Japanese society. I suppose you misread this and thought that I attributed the lack of creativity in Japan to something inate in the individuals. But if you reread it you will see that a better interpretation (in my excellent opinion) is that what I wrote atrributes that lack of creativity to the society. Notice that I wrote "in the process of fitting in" as a qualifer as to why the Japanese lack creativty. Notice how I also mentioned Japanese society. I suppose you misread this and thought that I attributed the lack of creativity in Japan to something innate in the individuals. But if you reread it you will see that a better interpretation (in my excellent opinion) is that what I wrote atrributes that lack of creativity to the environment via the society. Now go memorize all of those articles that I sent and I'll test you on them later:-) Perhaps Japan has something to teach us, but they also have much to learn. In the process of fitting in, the Japanese people, though intelligent, lack creativity. They are good at reverse engineering and improving products, but originallity is almost non existant. "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down," describes prewestern Japanese society and even now this approach is highly influential. I am glad that I do not live in such a society. On Jan 4, 7:20 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > I see you are attempting to hammer your point home! I'll read the rest > as I can Isp! :) > > On Jan 4, 5:18 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > “…It seems that you are saying "in some ways" the Japanese are not > > lacking in creativty….” – Ish > > > “…I have already offered evidence that in the balance Japanese > > culture, even at the end of the 20th century, is a rigid culture that > > does not encourage inovation….” – Ish > > > Yes, I do say that creativity is not a genetic trait that can be > > attributed to one culture and not another. Thus, any apparent lack of > > creativity, an innate trait, can be found elsewhere. . . the cause of > > said appearances is what I’m talking about here. > > > Also, what you claim now to have offered evidence of differs quite a > > bit from your original declarations: > > [“they..lack creativity” and “…originallity is almost non > > existant…”. ] > > > However, even giving you the right to change what you mean to express, > > what you posted before and now here do not go near your original > > notions. So, I feel no need to support my disagreement with what I > > still understand your original propositions to have been, seeing > > little/no evidence supporting them. In fact, your earlier posted > > ‘evidence’ goes toward showing how creative many in Japan are. Your > > current posts do the same. What they DO show is that there is, in some > > areas, social ‘rules’ that appear to stifle creativity. This may be so > > in specific areas. It is also true most places on earth. There are > > social ‘rules’ that do not like much movement away from any given > > ‘norm’ to be found almost everywhere. This has nothing to do with the > > presence of individual creativity. > > > On Jan 4, 8:14 am, Isparklaria <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Orn and all, > > > > Having not lived in Japan, I can only form my opinion of the second > > > hand. One of my sources was a Japanese acquaintance of mine. He came > > > to the USA with his wife and children so that his children could get > > > what he considered a real education. His children were attending a > > > private school that had the goal of eventually teaching them to think > > > for them selves. He told me about the Japanese educational system. It > > > was based almost entirely on rote learning. Unfortunately much of > > > American education is now almost all rote learning. I happen to work > > > as a substitute teacher, so, at least within the schools I work in, > > > this is the case. Hideki and his wife, Yuko, also told me about > > > Japanese after school cram schools. As if six hours of rote learning > > > weren't enough, many children went for another four to six hours of > > > after school "cram school". This leaves little or no time for creative > > > activity such as authentic play (exploration). > > > > Below is another link to an article from 2004 that backs up my > > > statement. I have not taken the time to read more than the abstract, > > > which I have pasted in after the link. I have read other articles > > > about Japan's lack of creativity and also the lack of creativity in > > > some other far eastern nations. One example of this lack of creativity > > > is that although their universities produce first-rate technicians > > > with PhD degrees, they produce few scientific innovators. How are they > > > dealing with this problem? For the most part, they are doing what they > > > always do, which is copy someone else's system that already get the > > > results, In this case it is mostly America's system. In my opinion > > > they are still afraid to improvise, to step into the unknown or even > > > attempt a seriously different permutation of their own current > > > approach. Although studying and copying the creativity developing ways > > > of others is not a total waste, to really be creative one must be > > > willing to fall flat on ones face, rather than proceed with caution. > > > This is true for developing creativity enhancing educational methods > > > also. Without his leap into the unknown, they will only be a modified > > > copy of America, and that is not being creative. > > > >http://www.wilsoncenter.org/topics/pubs/asiarpt121.pdf > > > JUNE 2004 > > > > ABSTRACT: The Japanese government is in the midst of economic and > > > educational reforms to > > > enhance creativity and boost national competitiveness. In this report, > > > three experts explore and > > > evaluate these unprecedented measures.According to Gerald Hane, Japan > > > has already made some > > > progress in removing obstacles to entrepreneurship, allowing > > > innovators to benefit from their > > > ideas, and improving worker mobility—although ample room for > > > improvement remains. Akiko > > > Hashimoto argues that deeply embedded social hierarchies stifle the > > > creativity of Japan’s young > > > people.Youths should be brought into the reform process because > > > creativity cannot be stimulated > > > through top-down regulation, she contends. Misao Hayakawa warns that > > > Japan may go too > > > far in emphasizing choice and individualism at the expense of > > > standards. He maintains that higher > > > education has been more successful than lower education in > > > implementing reforms that are > > > meaningful and measurable. > > > > http://www.wilsoncenter.org/topics/pubs/asiarpt121.pdf > > > > On Jan 3, 10:26 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Ish, I was sure that you had some backing for your beliefs…you often > > > > do. And, in general, I have found your posting to be rather even > > > > handed and somewhat insightful. > > > > > This said, in this one instance, I find what I understand to be your > > > > view to be to be far from the case. > > > > > Without belaboring the issue, I referenced your words “they..lack > > > > creativity” as being ‘in some ways’ not close to reality. I also just > > > > referenced your words about the Japanese “…originallity is almost non > > > > existant…”. I will add directly here that such an assertion appears > > > > absurd to me. > > > > > You replied to my using the term ‘Eastern cultures’ with “By the way, > > > > I did not say that all eastern cultures produce few creative > > > > individuals.” I agree. That is not what you said nor what I implied > > > > you said nor is it what you appear to be refuting now. > > > > > I retain my original view and clearly say that what you have > > > > referenced in your last two posts does nothing at all to disparage > > > > this view. I invite all to read them and form their own conclusions. > > > > > On Jan 2, 8:51 pm, Isparklaria <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Here is another highly revealing article about Japanese Culture. It is > > > > > over 16 years old but that doesn't matter, in my opinion. > > > > > >http://www.newint.org/issue231/nail.htm > > > > > > new internationalist > > > > > issue 231 - May 1992 > > > > > > The nail that sticks out > > > > > Conformists belong, non-conformists and ethnic minorities get hammered > > > > > in Japan. > > > > > John Charles and Peter Mallat unravel Japanese groupthink. > > > > > > 'SHIGOTO ARIMASUKA?' pesters the tall, dark-skinned man at the railway > > > > > exit. He bows incongruously, imitating the mannerisms of the culture > > > > > he envies. 'Sir, Sir... do you have a job for me?' > > > > > > He is an Iranian day-labourer, doing the hard, dirty jobs now scorned > > > > > by almost all Japanese. After getting one day's work he prowls > > > > > endlessly in search of the next, before bedding down for the night in > > > > > a local park. Sleeping rough is his only option since the local > > > > > flophouse was closed by the authorities. For the most part they cause > > > > > him little trouble. The indifference of the public is, he says, almost > > > > > worse. > > > > > > He has - or had - a wife in Iran. Is she still there?.., he doesn't > > > > > know. His working conditions?.., a finger-stump is mute testimony. > > > > > Accident insurance?.., the gentleman surely jests. 'We Iranians > > > > > are...' he begins in English, but words soon escape so he switches to > > > > > Japanese. 'We are proud... but war has ruined us.' He shrugs, smiles > > > > > ruefully, and is consumed by the surging crowd. > > > > > > The old man crouches on the granite steps, mumbling to himself and re- > > > > > fighting long forgotten battles. The salarymen weave wary circles > > > > > round his stinking nest. Nobody has spoken to him here - he says - for > > > > > 20 years. In his sad delusion he imagines that his wealthy wife drives > > > > > him out of the house each day 'to avoid gossip' and picks him up at > > > > > night. In this most group-oriented of societies even the dropouts > > > > > cling to rags of respectability. Wa means 'harmony' or 'proper place': > > > > > the executive in the office and the Little Woman minding the hearth. > > > > > The consequences of social deviance are so alarming that office > > > > > workers between jobs are sometimes forced into masquerades of leaving > > > > > home in the morning to return at the end of the working day. You see > > > > > them snoring in theatres and glumly clock-watching in coffee shops. > > > > > > Japan is unthinkable without groups. Perhaps they developed from the > > > > > co-operative labour needed in the scattered villages of a rice-growing > > > > > culture. To this day the threat of Mura Hachibu ('rejection from the > > > > > village' or ostracism) by family, university alumnus league, company > > > > > or even golf club would be enough to bring the most determined social > > > > > deviant to heel. It can sometimes seem as if the only escape from the > > > > > demands of the group lies in madness. > > > > > > The boy shakes his fist and menaces the train guard through the glass. > > > > > He suddenly begins to weep. Everybody on the train is desperately > > > > > playing the game of 'pay no attention'. One- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
