I see innovation as somewhere between evolution and revolution.
On Jan 5, 2:04 pm, CrossBow <[email protected]> wrote:
> Too bad we can't just pack up and visit Japan and China tomorrow. The
> architecture and pottery for both is incomparable in the ancient world, or
> at least that seems to be a concensus I gleaned from my goofy art books and
> fellow art mongers, along with my personal opinion from studying thier
> pottery. My mentor was a shameless promoter of Japanese pottery and that is
> how I learned my basics.
>
> It is easy to agree that art "evolved" from the Chinese because they are too
> close in history and geographically to say "borrowed". Please
> don't intimate to a Japanese that everything they own is Chinese by
> default:) They appear similar in just about every aspect (martial arts
> specifically), but both sides will disagree just to make sure you know they
> consider themselves "different":)
>
> I'm not sure how you are qualifying "innovation" if you say they borrow and
> then improve. Is that not the heart of innovation? Original they may not
> be, but innovative they are/were:)
>
> generic as it is, this article in Wikipedia is good enough for a summary:
> this is an excerpt..
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_art
>
> <<<<<Japanese ceramics <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_pottery> are
> among the finest in the world and include the earliest known artifacts of
> their culture. In
> architecture<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_architecture>,
> Japanese preferences for natural materials and an interaction of interior
> and exterior space are clearly expressed.>>>>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Isparklaria <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I don't know much about the architecture of Japan. I know that at
> > least some parts of it were originally borrowed from the Chinese. I
> > have reason to believe that nearly all of it was borrowed from the
> > Chinese. I have it from many reputable sources nearly all of the
> > traditional beautifully organic culture of Japan comes from China. The
> > Japanese did with aspects of Chinese culture, what they are now doing
> > with western culture. They copied it an evolved it in their own
> > direction. The Japanese were not big on innovation then either. They
> > are practical. They find something that works; then they adapt and
> > improve it over time. The Chinese/Japanese culture worked well until
> > they met wild western barbarians with better guns. The Chinese
> > suffered two cultural revolutions. The first one came when the young
> > angry Japanese soldiers mocked and destroyed them as crazy old
> > traditional people. The Japanese blamed their parents, so to speak,
> > for the whipping they had taken from the Europeans and Americans
> > before they decided to modernize. The second one came when the teenage
> > Red Guard members tried to cleanse China of all of that old
> > traditional superstitious nonsense. Later the Chinese realized that
> > the Red Guard has destroyed some of their greatest cultural
> > treasures.
>
> > The Chinese art and technology was developed through observation and a
> > little bit of theory. The main theory was that observation trumps
> > theory. They never got to the stage of controlled experiments. The
> > controlled experiment is the main reason that modern western science
> > is more powerful and less organic than Chinese science. The Chinese
> > learned from complex real world experiences and observation rather
> > then trying to isolated the causes. Both approaches have merit. In
> > fact we need more of the ancient Chinese approach. Roger Bacon (not
> > Francis) and Goethe both approached the study of nature in a manner
> > similar to the Chinese. The cyberneticists started a new useful stream
> > in western science that is more organic. Many clear thinkers have said
> > and I agree that we will be far better off when modern western science
> > and western thinking becomes more organic.
>
> > On Jan 5, 10:40 am, CrossBow <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Consider this, Japanese and Chinese, live inside and outside of some of
> > the
> > > oldest art forms in history everyday. The homes some of them live in are
> > > master craftsman works of art (some are slums or apartment boxes too).
> > The
> > > temples, streets, haiku, writing, even the language have been culturally
> > > streamlined for beauty. Much of their art forms are considered the
> > height
> > > of pottery making in the World eclipsed by no other culture as yet.
> > Their
> > > ornamental manners are a cultural facade masking thier thoughts that
> > evolved
> > > over centuries. Lovely but decietful:). They were such an organic
> > culture
> > > that it must be an intense shift for them to become so technologically
> > > advanced in so few years. They have had to be something of creative to
> > have
> > > made this cultural leap. But - could these concerns of creative stagnancy
> > be
> > > a signal that thier creativity may have played itself out over hundreds
> > of
> > > years culminating in a decadence that may need a artistic rennaisance in
> > the
> > > near future? Whatever it is it will be sure to be beautiful if they can
> > > retain their past:)...
>
> > > read more »
>
> > > On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Isparklaria <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 4, 7:20 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > I see you are attempting to hammer your point home! I'll read the
> > rest
> > > > > as I can Isp! :)
>
> > > > Yes, Orn, I'll hammer you down for standing out:-). Actually I would
> > > > agree that Japanese individuals within Japanese society are probably
> > > > very creative in ways that I have not even thought of. However, I'd
> > > > like to see those ways defined and then see evidence unless it is self
> > > > evident.
>
> > > > I also want to protest that you took me out of context but I will also
> > > > give you some slack because what I wrote was not all that clear. But
> > > > here again, below is what I wrote. Notice that I wrote "in the process
> > > > of fitting in" as a qualifer as to why the Japanese lack creativty.
> > > > Notice how I also mentioned Japanese society. I suppose you misread
> > > > this and thought that I attributed the lack of creativity in Japan to
> > > > something inate in the individuals. But if you reread it you will see
> > > > that a better interpretation (in my excellent opinion) is that what I
> > > > wrote atrributes that lack of creativity to the society.
>
> > > > Notice that I wrote "in the process of fitting in" as a qualifer as to
> > > > why the Japanese lack creativty. Notice how I also mentioned Japanese
> > > > society. I suppose you misread this and thought that I attributed the
> > > > lack of creativity in Japan to something innate in the individuals.
> > > > But if you reread it you will see that a better interpretation (in my
> > > > excellent opinion) is that what I wrote atrributes that lack of
> > > > creativity to the environment via the society.
>
> > > > Now go memorize all of those articles that I sent and I'll test you on
> > > > them later:-)
>
> > > > Perhaps Japan has something to teach us, but they also have much to
> > > > learn. In the process of fitting in, the Japanese people, though
> > > > intelligent, lack creativity. They are good at reverse engineering
> > > > and
> > > > improving products, but originallity is almost non existant. "The
> > > > nail
> > > > that sticks out gets hammered down," describes prewestern Japanese
> > > > society and even now this approach is highly influential. I am glad
> > > > that I do not live in such a society.
>
> > > > On Jan 4, 7:20 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > I see you are attempting to hammer your point home! I'll read the
> > rest
> > > > > as I can Isp! :)
>
> > > > > On Jan 4, 5:18 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > "…It seems that you are saying "in some ways" the Japanese are not
> > > > > > lacking in creativty…." – Ish
>
> > > > > > "…I have already offered evidence that in the balance Japanese
> > > > > > culture, even at the end of the 20th century, is a rigid culture
> > that
> > > > > > does not encourage inovation…." – Ish
>
> > > > > > Yes, I do say that creativity is not a genetic trait that can be
> > > > > > attributed to one culture and not another. Thus, any apparent lack
> > of
> > > > > > creativity, an innate trait, can be found elsewhere. . . the cause
> > of
> > > > > > said appearances is what I'm talking about here.
>
> > > > > > Also, what you claim now to have offered evidence of differs quite
> > a
> > > > > > bit from your original declarations:
> > > > > > ["they..lack creativity" and "…originallity is almost non
> > > > > > existant…". ]
>
> > > > > > However, even giving you the right to change what you mean to
> > express,
> > > > > > what you posted before and now here do not go near your original
> > > > > > notions. So, I feel no need to support my disagreement with what I
> > > > > > still understand your original propositions to have been, seeing
> > > > > > little/no evidence supporting them. In fact, your earlier posted
> > > > > > 'evidence' goes toward showing how creative many in Japan are. Your
> > > > > > current posts do the same. What they DO show is that there is, in
> > some
> > > > > > areas, social 'rules' that appear to stifle creativity. This may be
> > so
> > > > > > in specific areas. It is also true most places on earth. There are
> > > > > > social 'rules' that do not like much movement away from any given
> > > > > > 'norm' to be found almost everywhere. This has nothing to do with
> > the
> > > > > > presence of individual creativity.
>
> > > > > > On Jan 4, 8:14 am, Isparklaria <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Orn and all,
>
> > > > > > > Having not lived in Japan, I can only form my opinion of the
> > second
> > > > > > > hand. One of my sources was a Japanese acquaintance of mine. He
> > came
> > > > > > > to the USA with his wife and children so that his children could
> > get
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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