You wrote <<I would love to see a few hundred 18 wheelers pull up to the 
stock exchange
and a few hundred drivers shout at those stuffed suits "where the hell do >>
It doesn't work that way.   They'd just sell it at a  price and lose money 
before they'd risk delivery.

I lost $3000 on an education in the commodities market - buying long, buying 
short - until my $3k was gone.   Bought $1200 Heating Oil contracts and they 
were worthless a week later.   That was $1200 gone and all I had was a piece 
of paper saying I'd bought some oil at a price I hoped the oil would be at 
in a month or more - but during the week in between my buying and my end 
date the price dipped - and my $1200 was gone. There's no way me buying a 
futures contract in oiol can make it go higher or lower.

I keep hearing how people/speculators are driving the price of oil up but I 
still don't see how that's possible.  Why haven't they done it before now? 
Why not do it with *all* the commodities?  Get a WSJ and look at the 
commodities section - IIRC it covered at least 4 pages of incredibly small 

Because it doesn't work that way.  Unless someone is getting secret info 
before hand or colluding with a whole group of people - which would mean 
we'll be seeing a bunch of people going to jail for a long time.  It's 
illegal to manipulate stocks and I bet the gov agencies that oversee these 
things are looking very closely at anyone making a lot of money on oil 
futures.  Anytime they make $600 and up it gets reported to the IRS.  There 
may be other parts of the govt that does a poor job but the IRS isn't one of 
them.  True, they may act excessively and perhaps illegally even,  but few 
people cheat on their taxes and get away with it -for very long - 
especially if there's a significant amount of money involved - and to move 
the oil market one way or the other would take billions of $$s - all of 
which would be at risk - they could lose those $$s pretty easily.  All it 
takes is a *rumor* that says a new oil field has been found, - Boom - the 
spot market plunges and those billions are gone  POOF!  And it happens in 
the other direction also - if the investor bets the price will go down and 
there's a rumor of the Israeli's attacking Syria, another POOF! and again, 
the moneys gone - ALL gone.

If it were possible, people would have been doing it for years - and with 
all the commodities.

Take care --

Larry T (66 MGB, 74 911, 91 300D) for Oil Analysis and Weber Parts
Test Results
Weber Carb Info

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Archer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mercedes Discussion List" <>
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anybody else get this?

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Gary Hurst" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> pretty much.  prices drop and they uphold the contract and make lots of
>> money. prices rise, and they "go broke" and make a lot of money.
>> it looks like nonsense from here as well
>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Rolf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> I can't help but think its a scam. They will reap all their money now
>>> and close the doors as soon as they start losing money.
>>> -Rolf
> -----------------------------------------------------
> (From another list:)
> There is a lot of chatter about speculators driving up crude prices
> I don't doubt that some speculation goes on but how do we know how much?
> And how much influence does this have on retail prices?
> Oil futures are thought to be a major field for hedge funds.  Not
> re-assuring.
> And even lone speculators can operate off a computer which can be
> located anywhere on earth so it is hard to regulate by law or taxation
> There are opinions everywhere on speculation but few reliable data
> D
> It is more than "chatter".  Think about it.  If oil prices were set by
> discussions that only included those who pump oil and those who refine it,
> the price would be very different than the current situation where oil is
> purchased and re-sold by all sorts of entities that have no ability to
> actually accept delivery of the product they are buying.  The futures 
> market
> concept simply brings a lot more players to the table, and that means more
> volatility in prices, mostly upwards.   These futures are sold and resold
> many times, and ultimately the refiners have to pay whatever price the 
> last
> holder of the future wants.
> It seems to me that it would be in the USA's interest to ban the practice.
> OPEC of course does not mind selling oil to some guy on Wall Street who
> doesn't know shit about refining it (nor does he have the equipment) 
> instead
> of selling at a lower price to some refinery in Texas.   And the refinery 
> in
> Texas doesn't mind that the guy on Wall Street bought the oil from Saudi 
> and
> they have to buy from him at a higher price because they just pass the 
> cost
> along to the consumer.
> C
> Speculators can operate from any country  How can US ban their activity?
> D
> It would have to be a coordinated international regulation in order to 
> work.
> Alternatively, if the refineries worked together, they could surprise the
> futures traders by suddenly not buying from them.  Then a bunch of oil 
> would
> get delivered to those Wall Street parasites.  That would teach them.   I
> would love to see a few hundred 18 wheelers pull up to the stock exchange
> and a few hundred drivers shout at those stuffed suits "where the hell do
> you want us to put your oil!"
> C
> Note:  "C" is an American executive working in Europe and "D" is a retired
> engineer.
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