Hi Mike, John, List,
I was hopiing to stir up the pot a bit and then come back with a
comment like,
==> If we were facing off in 1492, give me a real Moorish Damascus
forged Vanadium steel Sabre with nanocarbide sharpness forged in a
controlled crucible against you and your old rusty Field of Heaven
laminated Sword and my first strike would lop off your brittle Campo
sword as you realized there was a ring of blood forming around your
neck... ;-)
Warfare allows no luxuries and that where the individual's weapon can
easily reverse the balance of power for those who become to lustfully
with the beautiful curves or composition of their weapon ... and forget
that there is more than one way to skin a rat.
Back in Biblical times, no doubt that meteoritical iron would be a
fantastic material vs. some pig iron if that, but credit goes where it
is deserved to those Near Eastern or Indians who showed the world and
our ancestors a lesson or two in the importance of improved steel.
There are many considerations for the performance of a good sword to
Kill Bill, and lamination is but one design element and to focus on
that to call it Damascus is historically a great insult to the Moguls,
Persians and Arabs who developed this technology. Putting a layer with
a Widmanstatten figure still in it would only be an invitation to a
beheading as the meteoritically inclined knight's head got an aerial
view of his body enough for a last amazed remark "My sword split right
along the etch pattern - we need to publish this." But the lamination
serves a purpose if you have a bunch of crappy steel to work with. If
a hard one is brittle but holds a good blade, then an absorbant soft
layer need be alternated even though it is impossible to sharpen.
Still, if you go to yourt local autoparts store and buy a $10, 50-piece
socket and ratchet wrench set made of Chrome-Vanadium steel imported
from China you can see how far the steel industry has evolved.
Back in Biblical times, no doubt that meteoritical iron would be a
fantastic material vs. some pig iron if that, but credit goes where it
is deserved to those Near Eastern or Indians who showed the world and
our ancestors a lesson or two in the importance of improved steel.
Today, this is only of academic interest since steel technology is so
well financed and so far advanced, as to not need even need better
steel at all in manycases but different more exotic alloys, and for
example, the Russian or NATO armies are not too interested in Damascus
or other obsolete yet key technological developments which have led us
to become us a cooperative technologically driven species more
importantly than survival of the strongest individual model ....
Damascus steel in its time was like having an iphone compared to your
landline adversary.
John! Beautiful images to salivate any collector!!!, the ~1621 sabre
you mention could not be forged of meteoritic iron or it would have
fallen apart. Perhaps it is a Kris process of lamination where the
meteorite etch brought out during annealing is part of the intricate
finish, but it is likely not Damascus due to the difficultioes of
working meteoritic iron.
Kindest wishes and thanks - John ---
How's this for a link when a meteoric sword was the leading edge of
technology, a millenium or two before Damascus:
During the Shang Dynasty (16th - 11th Centuiry B.C.), Chinese people
began to learn to use iron. The iron-edged bronze sword unearthed at
Liujiahe Village in Pinggu, Beijing, is one of the earliest
iron-containing objects discovered in China. The iron blade was cast
from smelted meteorite iron, and then inlaid into the bronze handle.
The sword is testimony to the fact that people had mastered the fairly
advanced technique of iron smelting and casting iron with bronze.
ref: http://china.org.cn/e-gudai/4.htm
Can anyone dig up an image of that one!
Doug
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Gilmer <[email protected]>
To: MexicoDoug <[email protected]>
Cc: dorifry <[email protected]>; meteorite-list
<[email protected]>; darryl <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:48 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Any experts on meteorite Kiris blades
Hi Doug and List,
Given the varied nature of meteoritic iron, it would seem unsuitable
for the production of any product that requires a consistent and/or
specific metallurgical process. One iron meteorite might be suitable,
but another will not. Introduce silicate inclusions, graphite
nodules, and other "contaminants" and you have a recipe for
poorly-made Damascus steel. The only way I can see around this would
be if an area had a large quantity of meteoritic iron of the same
type, such as a big fall like Campo del Cielo, or a giant source like
the Hoba iron. Even then, there is obviously some variation in
chemistry from one specimen to the next and from one portion of a
single specimen to the next.
Best regards,
MikeG
--
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Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites & Amber (Michael Gilmer)
Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com
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On 10/22/11, MexicoDoug <[email protected]> wrote:
"never once seen a meteoritic iron kris blade, but I've see about a
bazillion made of Damascus steel."
Hi Darryl and Phil,
That's not entirely accurate, either. The bizillion are made of
laminated (pattern-welded) steel. The lamination give that layered
look to it.
The kicker is that the Kris blades really are traditionally supposed
to
be made from a laminated sheets of meteoritic iron and other irons,
that get deformed and give that patterned look - almost always curved
unlike unaltered Widmanstatten/Thompson figures and similar to the
current crop of faux Damascus blades being marketed.
So it is more accurate to say (though there are probably still some
nit-picks):
"Never once seen a meteoritic iron Damascus Blade, but I've seen about
a bazillion Kris blades that were claimed to be made of Damascus
steel."
The inconsistency is only marketing hype in the knife industry started
by a single knifemaker who just wanted to drum up business with tall
claims in very recent times. So, the rest of the knifemakers joining
the bandwagon for more profits from a simple steel lamination process
that was never high on the difficulty level nor legendary. As a
matter
of fact, it was the third time in history the term Damascus was
appropriated. The second time was 100 years ago, when it became
synonymous with "Laminated" for making gun barrels that were real crap
and they went out of business.
The secretive, mystical aspect of the Damascus steel blades are
derived
in the Christian countries from the sharpness and hardness that they
held and vanquished many European warriors during the "Crusades". The
process was lost completely several hundred years ago and probably has
still not been rediscovered because other modern materials are
probably
equally good or better (a lot has changed in steelmaking since the
iron
age).
So unless you've been to a museum with ancient or old historical
Arabic
or Persian relics, you've probably never seen an authentic Damascus
blade, except the Kris blade-like process that one clever marketeer
invented forty years ago. There is nothing about the millenium and a
half run of Damascus steel that would suggest it used meteoritic iron,
which actually was probably an inferior iron for some true Damascus
fabrication processes.
As far as we know today from scientific analysis, the secret of
Damascus steel depended on the superior Vanadium containing iron
nuggets from India, (Today there are a wide range of excellent
Vanadium
steels, but not during the Crusades). Modern analytical techniques
show the secret has nothing to do with laminations,l but rather that
the old true Damascus process had some excellent metalurgy going on:
Carbon nanotubes and carbide nanowires were formed and held a
sharpening like no peer of its age.
...and that, is an authentic Damascus steel knife ... no meteorites
need apply ... and, from a modern point of view, think about the
variation in iron meteorite composition. Damascus was by nature
carefully controlled and swapping out raw materials wouold probably
not
be tolerated for an excellent final product. The mimicked Damascus
pattern caused by the lamination in the current crop of knives has
nothing to do with meteorites not anything to do with the properties
that made Damascus steel stand above its peers at the time. It's
special, seemingly mystical "edge" it had at the time, was cause by
the
carefully selected and controlled raw materials and the forging
process
they underwent, creating on the molecular level alternaing
carbide/nanotube tips. This definitely is not part of the modern crop
of Damascus pattern mimicks.
Ah, and the first time Damascus steel was appropriated to name a
modern
proces was by the blacksmith of Jim Bowie of the famed "Bowie knife"
who perished in the defense of the Alamo at the hands of Mexicans.
Bowie had designed his knife but the clever blacksmith, from New
Jersey, forged it, which was part of its specialty. I posted a movie
about 5-8 years ago here dealing with this subject and the movie. The
movie made the error of saying he rediscovered the Damascus process
(which was reputed to be at the time) and that it was made of the
rediscovered Damascus steel process. The needed to pick one or the
other. I have not seen meteorites being called the source of the
Bowie
knife steel from any other place but who jknows when it comes to
legends...
Kindest wishes
Doug
truen as far as is known
-----Original Message-----
From: dorifry <[email protected]>
To: meteorite-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, Oct 22, 2011 4:46 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Any experts on meteorite Kiris blades
I've never once seen a meteoritic iron kris blade, but I've see about
a
bazillion made of Damascus steel. Damascus sort of looks like a
Widmansttaten pattern if you didn't know any better.
Phil Whitmer
Joshua Tree Earth & Space Museum
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darryl Pitt" <[email protected]>
To: "Michael Gilmer" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Any experts on meteorite Kiris blades
Hi Mike,
That's not quite accurate. Many are made of steel, Damascus steel,
etc.
On Oct 22, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Michael Gilmer wrote:
I've seen a couple of these for sale on eBay in the past. They were
not exactly like the one's in Rob's photos, but they were similar.
(if I recall correctly)
Rob, if you have physical access to the blades in questions, a quick
nickel test should rule in/out a meteoritic origin.
Best regards,
MikeG
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites & Amber (Michael Gilmer)
Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com
Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my
News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone
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On 10/22/11, Darryl Pitt <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi,
Be very, very careful.
The stories associated with most krises for sale in Indonesia are
apocryphal. I've heard more fantastic stories---truly
extraordinary
tales---before the price drops precipitously during the course of
negotiations.
The kris is a very important cultural symbol and there are so many
legends
attached to this weapon. My favorite? It was widely believed a
kris
would,
on its own, slide out of its sheath and fly through the sky to
strike
the
enemies of its owner.
Meteoritic iron? I've heard this a lot----far too often, in
fact---and
I
would be extremely suspicious.
Best / darryl
On Oct 22, 2011, at 3:34 PM, Rob Wesel wrote:
Hello all
I have a friend vacationing who ran across an antique store
selling
three
Indonesian blades claiming to be made of "meteoric iron". While I
know
that if you are going to find a meteorite blade it's gonna be
Indonesian
or Mike Miller's, I know very little about what they should look
like.
If
the list holds any experts please have a look and weigh in.
http://www.nakhladogmeteorites.com/blades.htm
Thanks
Rob Wesel
------------------
Nakhla Dog Meteorites
www.nakhladogmeteorites.com
www.facebook.com/Nakhla.Dog.Meteorites
www.facebook.com/Rob.Wesel
------------------
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