Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous "BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.
Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop they kept moving it further away. I don't think they expected anyone to even make it as far as I did. We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be found on private property. -Michael in so. Cal. On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote: > > I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they are > still on the books and most likely will never come off. I have not been > hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men. > Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter eggs and > people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to protect > people from making any form of profit. There is also no statue of > limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American Lunar, > they can go back in time to bolster their case. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Atkins" <thetop...@aol.com> > To: <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>; <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> > Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S. > > > Hi Adam, > > What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or whatever. > really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without actual charges or > at least a ticket, it's just words. > > I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened during, or > just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a mission to > keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those same officers > watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to bigger fish long > ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding American meteorites > "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long for them to > figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough money to merit > the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other topic. > > I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have hard core > meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of hours per year > without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact with was aware > of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. Some day if we ever > get together we can share some stories. > > As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a point. You > can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick up fossils all > day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will hold true for > meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first North American > Lunar. > > The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. : ) > > > > Sincerely, > Larry Atkins > > IMCA # 1941 > Ebay alienrockfarm > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> > To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> > Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 7:02 pm > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S. > > I wish what you said was true. Our entire group was hassled around the > Pahrump area in Nevada and twice in California. Eight of our team members > were threatened (warned) and I know others on the List who have been hassled > as well. Two agents based out Barstow went as far as saying they know what > is being sold on eBay. We were told that some public land is designated as > heritage or areas of areas of critical concern which are completely off > limits while metal detectors cannot be used in other areas. I cannot find > any source which lists these areas so an agent can determine this in field > so be careful. Just ask artifact and fossils hunters what happened with > their once-fine avocation including the fellow who found "Sue" the dinosaur. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Atkins" <thetop...@aol.com> > To: <raremeteori...@centurylink.net>; <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> > Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 4:38 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S. > > > Hi Adam, All, > > This may be true but it is very rarely if ever enforced, rendering the laws > meaningless. BLM got all excited a couple years ago but it came to nothing, > ask Michael Mulgrew how his application went. It's a joke. The people > enforcing the laws of our wild lands have better things to do than hassle > rock hounds. In my sixteen years of hunting and occasional selling I've > never heard of, or experienced trouble. In fact, I've encountered law > enforcement of all types while in the field, told them exactly what I was > doing, talked money and everything, and all they say is "Good luck! Have a > great day!" > > Sell your rocks if you want, business as usual. > > > > Sincerely, > Larry Atkins > > IMCA # 1941 > Ebay alienrockfarm > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list > <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> > To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> > Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 3:38 pm > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S. > > I agree with everything you stated with the exception of response 2 where > you state private citizens can profit from meteorite finds here in the > United States. It is against federal and most state laws to use meteorites > found on public land for commercial purposes meaning that the finder is not > allowed to sell anything they find. Private citizen are prohibited from > making a profit without a permit which will never be issued. > > > > 2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the recovery of > meteorites, > would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered material > from a > new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly follows > that the total > mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not just > the > quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a fall > is obviously > more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when > terrestrial > weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived radioisotopes > have > decayed below the threshold of detectability. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matson, Rob D. via Meteorite-list" > <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> > To: <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> > Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 12:12 PM > Subject: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S. > > > Hi Ian, > > Since you brought up the Creston fall, presumably as a comparison example > against > current Australian state policies, I feel some counter-commentary is > appropriate. > >> Creston is a example of where things went a bit pair shaped in my mind for >> science. > > > In my opinion, Creston was really no stranger than Sutter's Mill, Novato, > Battle Mountain, > Mifflin or Ash Creek. Science has been well served by all of these falls. > >> USA had a private network of cameras setup that captured the fireball, a >> private individual >> and some others extracted that meteorite, the first piece(s) was then on >> sold. Finally it >> was sold for a ridiculous price. Not illegal or immoral......just not >> ideal > > > I think what you are getting at is that only a small fraction of each of > these falls made > it into the hands of researchers. There are a couple points to consider: > > (1) How much material do researchers really need to extract the majority of > pertinent > scientific data from a fall? Sure, if you had infinite time you'd love to > have all of it since > the individual meteorites from a fall are not necessarily homogenous. (Case > in point: > Almahata Sitta). But balanced against this is the question of how much more > you're > going to learn by analyzing all of the stones from an L6 fall. > > (2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the recovery of > meteorites, > would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered material > from a > new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly follows > that the total > mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not just > the > quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a fall > is obviously > more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when > terrestrial > weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived radioisotopes > have > decayed below the threshold of detectability. > > (3) Successful meteorite recovery requires a significant skill set AND > considerable > expenditures of time and money. In the U.S., I expect that more than 95% of > the > annual resources made available through government grants to recover > meteorites > goes to ANSMET. I've spent thousands of unpaid hours on the analysis of > nearly > all U.S. falls that have occurred in the last 15 years, as well as a number > of falls > outside America, and have devoted a not insignificant amount of time and > money > traveling to many of these places to recover meteorites. On each of these > expeditions I tend to encounter the same couple dozen of dedicated > individuals -- > names that would all be familiar to anyone on the Meteorite List. On > occasion I have > seen other scientists "in the field," but I suspect in most cases it was on > their > own dime and not in an official paid capacity. Meteoriticists are paid to > analyze > meteorites, not run around the country recovering them. > >> Now in Australia, we do have an likely issue of finds being hidden ( old >> falls and >> cold finds) due to our state laws. However this material will just add to >> the 50,000 >> stones we need to know more about. Where these laws are a benefit is that >> when >> our DFN etc detects a fall, scientists (not private hunters looking for >> profit or cost >> recovery) will go out grab the stone and bring it back! > > > Perhaps in Australia this happens. I have not seen evidence that this is the > case > in the U.S. Researchers have access to the same information that I do: > Doppler > radar, seismic networks, all-sky cameras, internet posts, the AMS website > and > a dozen other resources. Nothing other than time and funding is stopping > them > from competing with private citizens. > >> We will know where it came from, where it landed, who found it, what it is >> and >> where it will stay exactly. With much more than just a classification but, >> rare orbit >> data - which is contributing greatly to mapping our solar system and more! > > > Well, we got all of that on both Sutter's Mill and Creston, in spite of the > problems > of private land ownership and considerably harder searching conditions than > the > almost ideal surfaces of the Australian outback. So both systems can work. I > just > think the current U.S. laws favor a higher success rate than in Australia > because > they (at least currently) provide enough incentive to boost the people-hours > that get devoted to each fall. > > Best wishes, > Rob > > ______________________________________________ > > Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the > Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ > > Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the > Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ > > Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the > Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ > > Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the > Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
