Hi there Carl,
why making it so complicated? What about a more trivial definition?
For meteorites:
A professional is someone, who has a registered business and pays his taxes for
that.
Because the points you're listing to define a professionalist, you find in the
meteoritic scene also with many, or most of, the "amateurs" (in the good
meaning of the word). Collectors, collector/dealers, hobby hunters ect., who
aren't perceiving themselves as professionals.
Would also meet better the original meaning of the Latin word "professio",
which is a public declaration.
>To me it is this aspect in our Biz that is the most lacking.
Excuse me, in which field of collecting do you have a better or even only an
equivalent authentication process and such a safety standard as with meteorites?
>Most collectible objects can be certified as authentic.
And how does this certification process looks like there?
Take fine arts. There you're going to an appointed expert, who you pay and who
takes a look on your object and writes you a certificate. And there you are.
And the result, whether he's going wrong or whether he's right depends only on
his training and his experience. His opinion.
Same with antiques or fossils ect. at best you go to a curator or a scientist
at an university, who will tell you then his opinion, based on a comparative
method.
With meteorites?
1.) Meteorites get not authenticated by means of personal opinion or gut
feeling.
They have physical properties, which are measured and these results are
reproducible at any time.
And according these measurable properties, they unambiguously are
authenticated as meteorites and
classified.
2.) That classification is not done by private scholars or paid appraisers,
but because the meteorites are in first line objects of research and not of
commercial trade,
by independent scientists. The best experts we have. And that
authentication procedure is standardized
and world-wide prescribed by the Meteoritical Society.
3.) Additionally to the classification from each meteorite a share has to be
deposited for reference purposes
at a public institution.
4.) All newly classified meteorites are recorded with their key data, place of
reference specimen and often
with the main mass holder in a central register, accessible for everyone,
and they are published in the
Meteoritical Bulletin.
5.) The NomCom of the Meteoritical Society is a board of international leading
expert scientists.
It is certainly more than a nod-through-club. It approves the plausibility
of the reports handed in, before
it decides to officially publish a new meteorite. If you send in all the
results of the required
measurements for a meteorite classification for a piece of charcoal - they
won't accept it as a meteorite,
neither will they wave through a classification handed in and made by
yourself in your kitchen
or by a music school.
6.) Many of the rarer types are introduced by scientists on their congresses,
posters are made and over years
you see scientific articles published about the very meteorite.
7.) The meteorite scene is extremely small. There is absolutely no problem for
a beginning collector or a
layman to come in contact with experienced collectors, competent meteorite
people, even scientists to ask
about the authenticity of his specimen, as well there are always other
collectors, who own a specimen of
the very meteorite, to compare it.
8.) There is none of the most expensive meteorites, hence those, where security
is most crucial for the
hehe: consumer, which wouldn't be best-known in the meteoritic community.
Something like an anonymous Mona Lisa or an unknown mask of Agamemnon does
not exist among mercantile
meteorites.
9.) Everyone acting in the meteorite world underlies strictest necessities
regarding authenticity.
Those collectors and dealers, who only once sold a faked meteorite - they
were and are immediately
sorted out by the meteorite scene. They can't take part therein anymore,
because reputation and trust
are the fundament of that scene.
10.) You have IMCA, where everyone can address to, if he/her sees any problem
with a meteorite and if his/her
partner of a transaction is a member and many, if not meanwhile most of
dealers and collectors, who
frequently sell or swap meteorites are members there. They adhere to the
highest standards of
authentication and a high standard of "business conduct". And they do have
a certain degree of competence,
due to the procedures necessary to be accepted as a member, and they are
self-monitoring to a certain
degree. A fast glance into your daily ebay, will proof to you, that it
works. Because those self-made
meteorites, the pseudos, the fakes.. they are always offered by sellers,
who are no IMCA-members.
There. You see under what for a regimentation, obligations, responsibilities
the actors - no matter whether professionalist or amateur are transacting
regarding the certification of their meteorites. In fact, often after you got
your new meteorite in, you have to wait two or three years, until it is
officially authenticated and published, before you can start an official sale
or swap.
All that - I really don't know any other field of collectibles, where you have
so many different layers of security and such a level of authentication like
with meteorites.
And therefore no other collecting hobby comes to my mind, which would be so
extremely safe for the people, like meteorites.
Look Carl, because you choose a Lunar as example, we're just distributing again
some KREEP.
You need only to throw the number into Google, and you'll find it on Randy
Korotev's pages, Norbert Classen's site, in David Weir's studies, in the NASA
Lunar meteorite compendium.
And most important, you will find it in the Meteoritical Bulletin database,
there also the holder of the main mass (who is in this case also the person,
people are buying from. If they buy from a second, third, fourth hand then the
piece is coming with our label, so that it can be traced back), our names they
find in the IMCA member list, there they could ask anytime and independently,
whether it is the real McCoy.
And you will find a lot of scientific papers and publications about that
material.
If you check the authors of only the specialized publications about that KREEP,
you'll see, that minimum 20 scientists from around the world have worked on
that material
and that at a lot of institutes, specialized and leading in that branch of
science.
And important: That all can be checked independently and relatively quickly by
everyone, as long as he has an internet access.
And that is no exception, you have that with all lunaites.
And you know what?
That you don't have with your assumed Duerer print, your Maya stela, your
T-Rex-Claw, your Elvis curl, your splinter of the holy cross, your Lincoln
autograph ect ect pp.
Just remember the most recent fine arts forgery scandal, the forged paintings
of the "Collection Werner Jaeger". So far a dozen or so are identified to be
forged. They were sold by the most renown auction houses,
like Christie's and Lempertz, in Paris, London, Cologne.. - with all their
experts - and some of them are hanging in museums - again, with all their
experts - and their true nature remained undetected for many, many years.
And there we're not talking about 50$ for a Mekong-Iron, there we're talking
about Pechstein, Ernst, Campendonk. The most expensive one of them was
auctioned for 3.3 million USD.
So Carl, you see, even with a meteorite specimen you're buying at 20 or 100
bucks, you have a much higher safety standard, certainty and security,
than in the other fields of collectibles, where, if we take e.g. arts or
antiques in extremo, the price paid for a single top specimen would pay the
complete world-output of commercially traded meteorites of several years.
Therefore, what do you can ask more?
Ah and ebay, come on!
Ebay is not the meteorite trade, ebay is a detail of meteorite trade.
You see it by your own. The major part of the auctions there are specimens of
mass finds.
Everything else, mainly comes in small and smallest servings.
Then there are some dealers, who use ebay exposing multi-k$-specimens as a
shop-window.
And finally you have the specialty dealers, who frequently sell there.
But those announce if they are starting a mayor sale or introduce an exciting
new meteorite,
their auctions separately to the circles of experts, like here on the list.
So they use it as a more comfort way to do their transactions, than e.g. to
email around or to set up a website.
Simple example, no layman would ever feel the desire to purchase from ebay
let's say a slice of the new brachinite-like TFL-plotters. Cause for him, these
slices are only a brown stone, he doesn't know about the particularities, why
that material is more exciting than a Munionalusta or a NWA 869, and first and
foremost, if he wants an authentic meteorite from space, then he finds in the
same selling place 1000 much more budget pieces.
And honestly, one hasn't to think about people, that they must be more stupid
than they are.
I never saw in my life, that any of these 10k$ - 1 million garden finds offered
on ebay, ever was sold.
As well as you don't buy your house, your Rembrandt, your head of Nefertiti in
such a place like ebay.
Really, and I mean
Meteorites are something very special and extraordinary. You easily can see it
- in each major city you find shops for minerals&fossils, antique shops, art
shops, numismatic.... but never a meteorite store.
So who the heck would come to the idea, to buy a meteorite from somebody, who
tells uuuh I saw it fall and picked it up, my magnet from the fridge is
sticking to it, therefore it is a meteorite or who tells that he found in the
garret Grampa's forgotten meteorite, which is of course a lunar, cause Grandma
told it.
and especially that, where he finds parallely in the same selling place
thousands of other offers, which observably are stemming from regular specialty
dealers and/or expert collectors?
And even if they have no ideas about meteorites, pomp and circumstances, then
they still can choose to buy from an IMCA-member there and are safe then.
And I mean,
those people, who prefer to go with a hole in their teeth not to the dentist,
but to the butcher,
I suppose, those people can't be helped.
And if I need some flowers, I go to a gardener or to a flower shop, but not to
the baker.
Sooo and before that posting get's too long, let's close the circle.
> sell with a money back guarantee.
(Anyway most meteorite people, not only the fulltime dealers are offering that.)
But, and that would underline my suggestion for a more simple definition of
"professional":
Don't know, how it's in USA, but in Germany we have in this respect a very good
consumer's protection.
By law you are allowed to send back any good you have ordered in internet, by
mail, from catalogues ect.
without telling any reasons and that at full refund, if you ordered it from a
"professional" shop or dealer.
On German ebay it is therefore marked, whether the offered good stems from a
commercial offerer or from a private offerer. With the latter, you have no such
right to send the stuff back.
All in all: Meteorite collecting is suuuuuuuuupersafe.
Of course, if someone isn't willing or able to spend in the beginning a minimum
of time, to learn only a little of the most basic knowledge about meteorites
and/if someone is in the beginning not able or willing to concede a tiny leap
of faith to the expert, he buys his first meteorites from, if he really doesn't
know yet any,
then he definitely should not collect meteorites.
Though then, less than ever, he neither could collect fossils, art, coins,
antiques, baseball cards and so on.
Then he rather should choose a collecting field instead, where authenticity
doesn't play a role,
no idea, something like vinyl disks, orchids or vintage radio sets.
Or he'd need a field of collecting, where he would be able to produce the
collectibles by his own,
like mushrooms or beetles.
Cheers!
Martin
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] Im Auftrag von
[email protected]
Gesendet: Samstag, 9. Oktober 2010 19:34
An: [email protected]; meteoritelist
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Professionals No Longer Sought
Dave,
This is an interesting word "professional." Basically it does not mean much
more than getting paid to do something.
I prefer the term professionalism. Professionalism includes the conduct of
what a professional does.
Not only do they get paid but, they conduct themselves in a certain way
including a long list of things;
Respect for others is an important ism. Bad mouthing your competition is one of
the un's in the ism.
Ethics and Morals play a role in the isms as well.
Trust and honor play a huge role as well.
Having good business sense is key.
Playing by the rules is important.
Basic Business Knowledge can be huge.
Knowledge in general also plays a huge role.
In this Biz a basic Scientific and geology education is a great aid towards
achieving the highest level of professionalism.
Each of these areas can be broken down and defined but basically there are
various degrees of professionals and ism based on these factors and a few more
I may have missed here whether you get paid or not.
To tackle your question about authenticity is a tough nut.
Even Earth minerals require a certain amount of testing or opinion to verify
authenticity but, meteorite identification is far more difficult because it's
not quite as aesthetically driven as the mineral biz. As an example. A perfect
diamond is flawless. Not so with a perfect meteorite. To me the perfect
meteorite is the one in my possession. ha ha.
Most dealers can identify most of the chondrites in general with a visual
inspection. Beyond that the sky is the limit. Pun intended.
Yes, there are many rules of thumb about meteorites but I cannot think of a
single rule that cannot at some point become an exception to the rule.
By that I mean if somebody came up with a rule book of meteorites there will
always be rule breakers. So, we are involved in an industry that relies heavily
on our Scientific counter parts.
We not only rely on them we depend on them. For without a Scientists name on a
piece of paper describing it , you have either a rock or a unclassified
meteorite. Either one is almost worthless.
To me it is this aspect in our Biz that is the most lacking. Sure we have great
Scientists just not enough of them. Especially when it comes to Achondrites and
odd irons such as Lovina. Many of these even the true Science professionals
cannot agree on at first.
Which brings us to the word "Legal" definition? This seems to be a bit of a
gray area.
Sure we can Google the word but there is no such thing as a *legal* meteorite.
Not really.
Most collectible objects can be certified as authentic. This adds confidence
which converts to trust.
With meteorites the only certification we have is in the name. Met soc
certifies only the name. The rest is assumed accurate but not "legally"
certified by anybody.
I would like to know why this is but, as this was explained by Jeff Grossman as
the case but not why.
I think this is why eBay allows these crackpots to sell there rocks because
nobody can prove them wrong through a listing alone. They may well be selling a
true Lunar. Who knows unless it gets studied. Many of them even present their
own testing results. I mean who could argue with that?
To me the ultimate professional guarantees what they sell with a money back
guarantee. Period.
We are in a tough biz.
My 2 more cents.
Carl
.
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