Martin said: "why making it so complicated? What about a more trivial definition?" Well Martin, thank you for the brief synopsis of Carl's opinion. It sure cleared things up in my mind ;) I tend to view the word, professional, as more of an adjective describing those that provide impeccable service and/or performance. That adhere to the highest standards regarding their particular field of endeavor. A meteorite seller doesn't have to be an expert or a dealer in order to be considered professional. And of course, as Carl mentioned, an unconditional guarantee is a must. Bill
---------------------------------------- > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:44:08 +0200 > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Professionals No Longer Sought > > Hi there Carl, > > why making it so complicated? What about a more trivial definition? > For meteorites: > A professional is someone, who has a registered business and pays his taxes > for that. > > Because the points you're listing to define a professionalist, you find in > the meteoritic scene also with many, or most of, the "amateurs" (in the good > meaning of the word). Collectors, collector/dealers, hobby hunters ect., who > aren't perceiving themselves as professionals. > > Would also meet better the original meaning of the Latin word "professio", > which is a public declaration. > > >To me it is this aspect in our Biz that is the most lacking. > > Excuse me, in which field of collecting do you have a better or even only an > equivalent authentication process and such a safety standard as with > meteorites? > > >Most collectible objects can be certified as authentic. > > And how does this certification process looks like there? > Take fine arts. There you're going to an appointed expert, who you pay and > who takes a look on your object and writes you a certificate. And there you > are. And the result, whether he's going wrong or whether he's right depends > only on his training and his experience. His opinion. > Same with antiques or fossils ect. at best you go to a curator or a scientist > at an university, who will tell you then his opinion, based on a comparative > method. > > With meteorites? > > 1.) Meteorites get not authenticated by means of personal opinion or gut > feeling. > They have physical properties, which are measured and these results are > reproducible at any time. > And according these measurable properties, they unambiguously are > authenticated as meteorites and > classified. > > 2.) That classification is not done by private scholars or paid appraisers, > but because the meteorites are in first line objects of research and not of > commercial trade, > by independent scientists. The best experts we have. And that authentication > procedure is standardized > and world-wide prescribed by the Meteoritical Society. > > 3.) Additionally to the classification from each meteorite a share has to be > deposited for reference purposes > at a public institution. > > 4.) All newly classified meteorites are recorded with their key data, place > of reference specimen and often > with the main mass holder in a central register, accessible for everyone, and > they are published in the > Meteoritical Bulletin. > > 5.) The NomCom of the Meteoritical Society is a board of international > leading expert scientists. > It is certainly more than a nod-through-club. It approves the plausibility of > the reports handed in, before > it decides to officially publish a new meteorite. If you send in all the > results of the required > measurements for a meteorite classification for a piece of charcoal - they > won't accept it as a meteorite, > neither will they wave through a classification handed in and made by > yourself in your kitchen > or by a music school. > > 6.) Many of the rarer types are introduced by scientists on their congresses, > posters are made and over years > you see scientific articles published about the very meteorite. > > 7.) The meteorite scene is extremely small. There is absolutely no problem > for a beginning collector or a > layman to come in contact with experienced collectors, competent meteorite > people, even scientists to ask > about the authenticity of his specimen, as well there are always other > collectors, who own a specimen of > the very meteorite, to compare it. > > 8.) There is none of the most expensive meteorites, hence those, where > security is most crucial for the > hehe: consumer, which wouldn't be best-known in the meteoritic community. > Something like an anonymous Mona Lisa or an unknown mask of Agamemnon does > not exist among mercantile > meteorites. > > 9.) Everyone acting in the meteorite world underlies strictest necessities > regarding authenticity. > Those collectors and dealers, who only once sold a faked meteorite - they > were and are immediately > sorted out by the meteorite scene. They can't take part therein anymore, > because reputation and trust > are the fundament of that scene. > > 10.) You have IMCA, where everyone can address to, if he/her sees any problem > with a meteorite and if his/her > partner of a transaction is a member and many, if not meanwhile most of > dealers and collectors, who > frequently sell or swap meteorites are members there. They adhere to the > highest standards of > authentication and a high standard of "business conduct". And they do have a > certain degree of competence, > due to the procedures necessary to be accepted as a member, and they are > self-monitoring to a certain > degree. A fast glance into your daily ebay, will proof to you, that it works. > Because those self-made > meteorites, the pseudos, the fakes.. they are always offered by sellers, who > are no IMCA-members. > > > There. You see under what for a regimentation, obligations, responsibilities > the actors - no matter whether professionalist or amateur are transacting > regarding the certification of their meteorites. In fact, often after you got > your new meteorite in, you have to wait two or three years, until it is > officially authenticated and published, before you can start an official sale > or swap. > > All that - I really don't know any other field of collectibles, where you > have so many different layers of security and such a level of authentication > like with meteorites. > And therefore no other collecting hobby comes to my mind, which would be so > extremely safe for the people, like meteorites. > > Look Carl, because you choose a Lunar as example, we're just distributing > again some KREEP. > You need only to throw the number into Google, and you'll find it on Randy > Korotev's pages, Norbert Classen's site, in David Weir's studies, in the NASA > Lunar meteorite compendium. > And most important, you will find it in the Meteoritical Bulletin database, > there also the holder of the main mass (who is in this case also the person, > people are buying from. If they buy from a second, third, fourth hand then > the piece is coming with our label, so that it can be traced back), our names > they find in the IMCA member list, there they could ask anytime and > independently, whether it is the real McCoy. > And you will find a lot of scientific papers and publications about that > material. > If you check the authors of only the specialized publications about that > KREEP, > you'll see, that minimum 20 scientists from around the world have worked on > that material > and that at a lot of institutes, specialized and leading in that branch of > science. > And important: That all can be checked independently and relatively quickly > by everyone, as long as he has an internet access. > And that is no exception, you have that with all lunaites. > > And you know what? > That you don't have with your assumed Duerer print, your Maya stela, your > T-Rex-Claw, your Elvis curl, your splinter of the holy cross, your Lincoln > autograph ect ect pp. > > Just remember the most recent fine arts forgery scandal, the forged paintings > of the "Collection Werner Jaeger". So far a dozen or so are identified to be > forged. They were sold by the most renown auction houses, > like Christie's and Lempertz, in Paris, London, Cologne.. - with all their > experts - and some of them are hanging in museums - again, with all their > experts - and their true nature remained undetected for many, many years. > And there we're not talking about 50$ for a Mekong-Iron, there we're talking > about Pechstein, Ernst, Campendonk. The most expensive one of them was > auctioned for 3.3 million USD. > > So Carl, you see, even with a meteorite specimen you're buying at 20 or 100 > bucks, you have a much higher safety standard, certainty and security, > than in the other fields of collectibles, where, if we take e.g. arts or > antiques in extremo, the price paid for a single top specimen would pay the > complete world-output of commercially traded meteorites of several years. > > Therefore, what do you can ask more? > > Ah and ebay, come on! > Ebay is not the meteorite trade, ebay is a detail of meteorite trade. > You see it by your own. The major part of the auctions there are specimens of > mass finds. > Everything else, mainly comes in small and smallest servings. > Then there are some dealers, who use ebay exposing multi-k$-specimens as a > shop-window. > And finally you have the specialty dealers, who frequently sell there. > But those announce if they are starting a mayor sale or introduce an exciting > new meteorite, > their auctions separately to the circles of experts, like here on the list. > So they use it as a more comfort way to do their transactions, than e.g. to > email around or to set up a website. > Simple example, no layman would ever feel the desire to purchase from ebay > let's say a slice of the new brachinite-like TFL-plotters. Cause for him, > these slices are only a brown stone, he doesn't know about the > particularities, why that material is more exciting than a Munionalusta or a > NWA 869, and first and foremost, if he wants an authentic meteorite from > space, then he finds in the same selling place 1000 much more budget pieces. > > And honestly, one hasn't to think about people, that they must be more stupid > than they are. > I never saw in my life, that any of these 10k$ - 1 million garden finds > offered on ebay, ever was sold. > > As well as you don't buy your house, your Rembrandt, your head of Nefertiti > in such a place like ebay. > > Really, and I mean > Meteorites are something very special and extraordinary. You easily can see > it - in each major city you find shops for minerals&fossils, antique shops, > art shops, numismatic.... but never a meteorite store. > So who the heck would come to the idea, to buy a meteorite from somebody, who > tells uuuh I saw it fall and picked it up, my magnet from the fridge is > sticking to it, therefore it is a meteorite or who tells that he found in the > garret Grampa's forgotten meteorite, which is of course a lunar, cause > Grandma told it. > and especially that, where he finds parallely in the same selling place > thousands of other offers, which observably are stemming from regular > specialty dealers and/or expert collectors? > > And even if they have no ideas about meteorites, pomp and circumstances, then > they still can choose to buy from an IMCA-member there and are safe then. > > And I mean, > those people, who prefer to go with a hole in their teeth not to the dentist, > but to the butcher, > I suppose, those people can't be helped. > And if I need some flowers, I go to a gardener or to a flower shop, but not > to the baker. > > Sooo and before that posting get's too long, let's close the circle. > > > sell with a money back guarantee. > > (Anyway most meteorite people, not only the fulltime dealers are offering > that.) > > But, and that would underline my suggestion for a more simple definition of > "professional": > Don't know, how it's in USA, but in Germany we have in this respect a very > good consumer's protection. > By law you are allowed to send back any good you have ordered in internet, by > mail, from catalogues ect. > without telling any reasons and that at full refund, if you ordered it from a > "professional" shop or dealer. > On German ebay it is therefore marked, whether the offered good stems from a > commercial offerer or from a private offerer. With the latter, you have no > such right to send the stuff back. > > > All in all: Meteorite collecting is suuuuuuuuupersafe. > > > Of course, if someone isn't willing or able to spend in the beginning a > minimum of time, to learn only a little of the most basic knowledge about > meteorites > and/if someone is in the beginning not able or willing to concede a tiny leap > of faith to the expert, he buys his first meteorites from, if he really > doesn't know yet any, > > then he definitely should not collect meteorites. > > Though then, less than ever, he neither could collect fossils, art, coins, > antiques, baseball cards and so on. > Then he rather should choose a collecting field instead, where authenticity > doesn't play a role, > no idea, something like vinyl disks, orchids or vintage radio sets. > Or he'd need a field of collecting, where he would be able to produce the > collectibles by his own, > like mushrooms or beetles. > > Cheers! > Martin > > > > > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] Im Auftrag von > [email protected] > Gesendet: Samstag, 9. Oktober 2010 19:34 > An: [email protected]; meteoritelist > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Professionals No Longer Sought > > Dave, > This is an interesting word "professional." Basically it does not mean much > more than getting paid to do something. > I prefer the term professionalism. Professionalism includes the conduct of > what a professional does. > Not only do they get paid but, they conduct themselves in a certain way > including a long list of things; > Respect for others is an important ism. Bad mouthing your competition is one > of the un's in the ism. > Ethics and Morals play a role in the isms as well. > Trust and honor play a huge role as well. > Having good business sense is key. > Playing by the rules is important. > Basic Business Knowledge can be huge. > Knowledge in general also plays a huge role. > In this Biz a basic Scientific and geology education is a great aid towards > achieving the highest level of professionalism. > Each of these areas can be broken down and defined but basically there are > various degrees of professionals and ism based on these factors and a few > more I may have missed here whether you get paid or not. > To tackle your question about authenticity is a tough nut. > Even Earth minerals require a certain amount of testing or opinion to verify > authenticity but, meteorite identification is far more difficult because it's > not quite as aesthetically driven as the mineral biz. As an example. A > perfect diamond is flawless. Not so with a perfect meteorite. To me the > perfect meteorite is the one in my possession. ha ha. > Most dealers can identify most of the chondrites in general with a visual > inspection. Beyond that the sky is the limit. Pun intended. > Yes, there are many rules of thumb about meteorites but I cannot think of a > single rule that cannot at some point become an exception to the rule. > By that I mean if somebody came up with a rule book of meteorites there will > always be rule breakers. So, we are involved in an industry that relies > heavily on our Scientific counter parts. > We not only rely on them we depend on them. For without a Scientists name on > a piece of paper describing it , you have either a rock or a unclassified > meteorite. Either one is almost worthless. > To me it is this aspect in our Biz that is the most lacking. Sure we have > great Scientists just not enough of them. Especially when it comes to > Achondrites and odd irons such as Lovina. Many of these even the true Science > professionals cannot agree on at first. > Which brings us to the word "Legal" definition? This seems to be a bit of a > gray area. > Sure we can Google the word but there is no such thing as a *legal* > meteorite. Not really. > Most collectible objects can be certified as authentic. This adds confidence > which converts to trust. > With meteorites the only certification we have is in the name. Met soc > certifies only the name. The rest is assumed accurate but not "legally" > certified by anybody. > I would like to know why this is but, as this was explained by Jeff Grossman > as the case but not why. > I think this is why eBay allows these crackpots to sell there rocks because > nobody can prove them wrong through a listing alone. They may well be selling > a true Lunar. Who knows unless it gets studied. Many of them even present > their own testing results. I mean who could argue with that? > To me the ultimate professional guarantees what they sell with a money back > guarantee. Period. > We are in a tough biz. > My 2 more cents. > Carl > . > > > ______________________________________________ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > [email protected] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list [email protected] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
