Scott wrote:
I think the problem may be clarified by actually writing those out in a sentence:

I arrived at work 5 minutes ago.
I arrived at work 14:00.

The latter doesn't seem human-readable to me.

But it does to me. And that's kind of the crux of the issue. Defining "human readable" is a lot harder than defining "machine readable" (which is measurable). You're a human and I'm a human but we disagree about what's readable.

It's a semantic debate. I don't mean that in a bad way. HTML is all about semantics and nobody likes a semantic debate more than me (ah, how I miss Dan's SimpleQuiz).

There are a few cases where we are specifying content syntax for publishers, e.g. phone type in hCard. And these are all similarly problematic. I think we might get closer to solving these problems by considering them not in terms of whether or not humans could theoretically read them, but rather in terms of whether or not microformats should be requiring publishers to publish specific content.

I agree with you in theory but in practice, the logical conclusion is to attempt natural language parsing which seems like a boiling-the- ocean approach to me (given the sheer number of languages).

So we compromise. The issue of providing an alternative to the abbr/ datetime combo is bound to involve a compromise somehow. I would rather rather that the compromise follow existing publishing behaviour.

No solution is going to be perfect. But separating dates and times while reusing the value excerpting pattern seems like the least problematic to me. It involves the least change to existing conventions and I *think* it will involve minimal changes for parsers (though that needs to be tested).

It certainly offers authors one more option when they want to publish a machine-readable datetime without potentially alienating humans.

The list of options would be:

1. publish the full datetime in running text,
2. publish the full datetime in the title attribute of the abbr element,
3. publish date and time separately in the title attributes of different abbr elements with class names of "value", 4. don't publish a machine-readable date at all (i.e. don't use hCalendar).

Currently, the options jump straight from 2 to 4 (and 4 is a perfectly viable option). Option 3 is a compromise that depends — like so many markup patterns — on your interpretation of the semantics of the proposal.

But your point is well taken: in an ideal world, no microformat would mandate that authors publish any specific content. In practice, and this is especially apparent given hCalendar's roots in the iCalendar format, some kind of compromise is necessary. I'm aware that that attitude could be a slippery slope to all sorts of machine-centric formats which is why I think it's so important that whatever compromise is chosen involves the least amount of change to existing conventions and, most importantly of all, is based on existing publishing behaviour.

Bye,

Jeremy

--
Jeremy Keith

a d a c t i o

http://adactio.com/



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