On [Jun 30], at [ Jun 30] 4:29 , Jeremy Keith wrote:

There are a few cases where we are specifying content syntax for publishers, e.g. phone type in hCard. And these are all similarly problematic. I think we might get closer to solving these problems by considering them not in terms of whether or not humans could theoretically read them, but rather in terms of whether or not microformats should be requiring publishers to publish specific content.

I agree with you in theory but in practice, the logical conclusion is to attempt natural language parsing which seems like a boiling- the-ocean approach to me (given the sheer number of languages).

I don't agree that's the logical conclusion. If we agree that we shouldn't be specifying content syntax for publishers, then the logical conclusion in my view is that anything we need to specify shouldn't be published as content. If it's not content, we don't need to use natural language (because only content needs to be human- readable), so there's no need for natural language parsing.

If HTML offered us a @metadata attribute, I think we'd do something like this:

<abbr title="June 30th, 2008" metadata="2008-06-30">6/30/08</abbr>

I think we actually have 3 distinct types of information here: 1) abbreviated content, 2) expanded content, and 3) ISO translation metadata. And I think merging 2 and 3 was a mistake, made because we all agree content should be readable, #3 looks readable enough, and in iCalendar #3 is formatted the same as everything else we're treating as content. When iCalendar is displayed to people, though, pretty much everything else we're considering content is simply displayed as- is, whereas the dates are used to generate a localized date, and only that localization is displayed as content. Regardless of how readable we each may find ISO dates, there's an established practice of treating them as metadata instructions for producing content, not content itself. I think we should follow this practice.

There is a danger in this practice in HTML that does not exist in iCalendar applications: the possibility of discrepancy between the content and the metadata. But while we've in the past attempted to minimize this danger with semi-visible ISO dates, I think visible metadata is in some ways *increasing* the danger by encouraging publishers to treat the metadata like content, editing to make it more like the content they were already publishing, e.g. by leaving off time zones.

So we compromise. The issue of providing an alternative to the abbr/ datetime combo is bound to involve a compromise somehow.

I think approaching ISO dates as metadata rather than content will remove the need to compromise on core principles.

But your point is well taken: in an ideal world, no microformat would mandate that authors publish any specific content. In practice, and this is especially apparent given hCalendar's roots in the iCalendar format, some kind of compromise is necessary.

As I suggested above, I believe iCalendar actually treats dates differently than we've been treating them in hCalendar, as metadata rather than content. Bringing our practice closer in line with iCalendar would, I think, allow us to solve this problem more easily.

Peace,
Scott

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