MARK:
It is quite clear that you just arrived to this site and do not know your way around as well as many of the members. It seems as well that you did not read my message well. SO I INCLUDE A PART OF IT ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mark: Your idea, unhappily for you is old and implemented in many forms and variations. I did "BOOST UP" several decades ago for 10 and 20 KW wind mills, with the capability of charging batteries with less than 50 watts and the batteries were, the lowest one 240 volts. I am an advocate of MPPT for all solar and wind mills power sources. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ First: 10 or 20 KW wind mill Second : 240 battery bank Third : Charge from 50 UP watts to maximum rated power Per design requirements, By definition this is a high voltage generated wind mill to be able to charge a 240 Volts battery bank at normal Wind speeds. Boosting was done at very low power to be able to have enough voltage to charge the battery bank. SO this was wrong and has been wrong for several decades - the systems still exist I think that you are assuming things that really are not there, do You ? I have done charge controllers, what are : >your fundamentals parts for of what I consider to be the > important features for a wind/hydro generator charge controller. > And Here below you are quite wrong, it is clear that you are not familiar with the principles of MPPT. The 10 and 20 KW were MPPT controlled WIND MILLS MAYBE many members of these groups may have a different opinion -- I would like to hear from them !! > The mppt is designed for small voltage differences, has no "matching" of > impedances going on, and lacks a load diversion for wind generators, but is > instead, designed as a solar charger SO ANY STEP-UP is wrong, ALL the time if we believe you > > Which, is why I said that if you're going use any kind of conversion of > voltage/current, needing a step-up is all wrong. > The rest is just human behavior Nando ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Koskenmaki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Nando" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 1:31 PM Subject: Re: [a-w-h] An idea for charge controller > I'm going to assume you're knowledgeable. > > Why would you build a high current, low voltage generator instead of a high > voltage, low current design? > > If you build something requiring step-up, you have built in BOTH losses, > first, the loss involved in large current through conductors - basically, > resistive and inductive losses in both your generator and in transmitting > the power to where it's used, and then again, when you use a step-up. > Step-up is inherently less efficient, due to the currents involved, than > step-down. > > Which, is why I said that if you're going use any kind of conversion of > voltage/current, needing a step-up is all wrong. > > continued below... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nando" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Mark Koskenmaki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "GUAYABO" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 10:50 AM > Subject: Re: [a-w-h] An idea for charge controller > > > > To shoot something down, better DEMONSTRATE why a "Very Bad Idea" > > > > > > All wrong. Very bad idea. > > > > > > > So be clear in your: > > > but entirely inconsequential in the scope I envision > . Thus, while it's somewhat similar in > concept, it lacks the fundamental parts of what I consider to be the > important features for a wind/hydro generator charge controller. > > > > > Also it is clear that you are not clear when you say: > > >> The mppt is extremely limited. Not a particularly design or > > implementation > > > of the idea > > > > Also, arrogance demonstrated with these remarks will close windows to many > > and may not answer to you. > > Your answer to me smacked of arrogance, in that you told me my idea was both > old and already implemented, and yet, I can find not a single retail example > of it, nor can I find any discussion ANYWHERE on the 'net which parallels my > idea. > > > > > Classical attitude : Me knows all, you know Nothing !! > > Now that's just plain rude. I made no such claims, nor did I say you know > nothing. I merely disagreed with you. > > If you can't be bluntly disagreed with, and feel that's insulting, then > you're going to have a very hard time dealing with a very large number of > people. > > North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 > personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net > sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net > Fast Internet, NO WIRES! > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > - > > > > > Nando > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Mark Koskenmaki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Nando" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 12:43 PM > > Subject: Re: [a-w-h] An idea for charge controller > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Nando" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Mark Koskenmaki" > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:36 AM > > > Subject: Re: [a-w-h] An idea for charge controller > > > > > > > > > > Mark: > > > > > > > > Your idea, unhappily for you is old and implemented in many forms and > > > > variations. > > > > I did "BOOST UP" several decades ago for 10 and 20 KW wind mills, with > > the > > > > capability of charging batteries with less than 50 watts and the > > batteries > > > > were, the lowest one 240 volts. > > > > > > All wrong. Very bad idea. > > > > > > You need your generator to be very high voltage, and convert downward. > > > High amperage windmills are wrong, and inefficient electrically. > > > > > > > > > > > I am an advocate of MPPT for all solar and wind mills power sources. > > > > > > The mppt is extremely limited. Not a particularly design or > > implementation > > > of the idea. > > > > > > > > > > > Many people still today are not aware that Solar, Wind and Hydro > systems > > > are > > > > CONSTANT CURRENT POWER sources. > > > > > > > > And you obtain the maximum power transfer if you match the load > > impedance > > > to > > > > the source impedance. > > > > > > This is just what I have been preaching. This is what nobody is doing. > > > Not even the outback site breaths a word about this. > > > > > > > > > > > Solar has maximum peak power generation due to the solar available > power > > > so > > > > it does not need a "Power Clamp" but a switch to stop charging > > batteries. > > > > > > > > Wind, since it has the power generation following the third power > rule, > > it > > > > may need a power limit controller, mostly due to the capacity of the > > > > generator, and the mechanical capabilities and limitations of the wind > > > mill > > > > structure. > > > > > > > > These mechanical limiters would be the FURLING TAIL to take the wind > > mill > > > > away from the wind direction flow and the BEST that is PITCHING ANGLE > > > BLADE > > > > control for effectively reducing the harvested power to the > capabilities > > > of > > > > the mill and generator. > > > > For a FURLING TAIL, A ballast load is needed to insure that the wind > > mill > > > > over all structure does nor over-spin > > > > For a PITCHING ANGLE BLADE Mill -- No Ballast load needed at all. > > > > > > > > MPPT Charge controller will maximize the power harvesting !!. > > > > > > It is a tiny help, but entirely inconsequential in the scope I envision. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Hydro systems though a constant current source, the power source > is > > > > quite more stable and if one can not use all the available power, one > > > needs > > > > to either, place a ballast load to absorb the power or to vary the > water > > > > volume being delivered to the Turbine to reduce the power presented to > > the > > > > load. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Nando > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Mark Koskenmaki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 3:41 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [a-w-h] An idea for charge controller > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Jonathan Mau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: "Mark Koskenmaki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 1:01 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [a-w-h] An idea for charge controller > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mark and others: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Switching power supplies are very interesting. They are highly > > > > > efficient, > > > > > > > and as such, generate little heat. > > > > > > > > > > > > Last (and probably only ~ 10 years ago) time I played with > switching > > > > > supplies, > > > > > > the heart of it was a $2 TI part surrounded by 10 or 15 other > > > > components. > > > > > > The energy storage device was an inductor instead of capacitor, > and > > > > > depending > > > > > > upon circuit chosen, could step up or step down. > > > > > > > > > > > > I imagine about $100 of parts would prove the idea, but what > parts > > > and > > > > > how > > > > > > connected (grin)? > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder how one finds the maximum power point? Would this be the > > > same > > > > > > technique as MPPT trackers in PV systems? I suggested a MPPT > device > > > for > > > > > wind > > > > > > to Michael Klemen in private correspondence recently when > discussing > > > how > > > > > grid > > > > > > intertie inverters outperform battery connected ones by up to 30% > > > > (someone > > > > > > else's figure). Never heard back I don't think, so still an open > > > > question > > > > > > for me. > > > > > > > > > > The "how" you find maximum efficiency is pretty simple, really. > > Either > > > > you > > > > > calculate it, using such things as resistance, impedance, etc, of > your > > > > > generator, or you simply spin the generator at a fixed speed, and > load > > > it > > > > > until you get the maximum power from it. Since you're using a > > > > > voltage/current converter, it's pretty simple, in that your output > is > > > > fixed > > > > > voltage and the current available would drop. > > > > > > > > > > To be honest, you could make a ballpark guess by measuring the dc > > > > resistance > > > > > of the windings, and approximating the load. > > > > > > > > > > Think of it this way... You have two resistors in series. One is > the > > > > > generator windings, the other is your load. > > > > > > > > > > Ohm's law: current times voltage = watts. > > > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > Voltage / ohms = current > > > > > > > > > > So you have a 100 volt generator, with internal windings of 10 ohms. > > > > > > > > > > You place it across a 14 volt battery and spin it at a fixed rate. > > > > > > > > > > Since a large lead-acid battery has practically no resistance, you > > > simply > > > > > subtract the voltage from the potential, and measure the power in > the > > > > > circuit. 100 volts - 14 v = 86V / 10 ohm = 8.6 A > > > > > > > > > > 8.6A across a 10 ohm circuit means it is dissipating 740 watts in > heat > > > in > > > > > the generator... > > > > > 8.6A into the battery is being charged at roughly 120 watts. > > > > > > > > > > Now, let's imagine that our battery is really 50 volts, and has a > > > > resistance > > > > > of 5 ohms. > > > > > > > > > > 100 - 50 = 50 volt potential across 15 (windings plus load) ohms = > 3.3 > > > > amps. > > > > > > > > > > 3.3a across a 50 volt battery is 167 watts to the battery instead of > > 120 > > > > > 3.3A across the windings which is 108 watts in heat across the > > > windings. > > > > > > > > > > Now, this is theoretical, remember? Real world figures will not > look > > > like > > > > > the above - but the TRENDS remain. > > > > > > > > > > Every power supply is a combination of constant current or voltage > > plus > > > an > > > > > error factor. > > > > > > > > > > This 100 volt generator has a degree of error. Now, what the > degree > > > is, > > > > I > > > > > do not know - the engineers know this. > > > > > > > > > > So, we're not really dropping 86 or 33 volts across the windings. > > It's > > > > > probably more like 10 to 60 . > > > > > > > > > > But you see my point, right? When you MATCH the generator and the > > > load, > > > > > efficiency dramatically rises. > > > > > > > > > > Even if your controller were only 90 percent efficient (very bad > > > > > efficiency), it would have HUGE benefits remaining. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Quote> > > > > > > > >Grid connected wind turbines out perform the battery > > > > > > > >charging models by as much as 30%. These are the same > > > > > > > >machines just different loads. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, yes, it is a different load, but the reason > > > > > > > you can get better performance is because you are > > > > > > > no longer tied to a battery voltage. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > Would not a maximum power point tracker type device solve this > > > problem? > > > > > Do > > > > > > such devices already exist for turbines? I am afraid I do not > know > > > the > > > > > > technical details of how MPPTs work. > > > > > > > > > > You really don't need to do this. Once you learn the generator > > > > > characteristics, you can simply follow a curve, line, or map, > > depending > > > on > > > > > what you want to do. Even a crude fixed percentage of voltage drop > ( > > > > akin > > > > > to a fixed resistance load) would be massively more efficient than > the > > > > abuse > > > > > we now heap on our generators. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <unquote> > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see any reason in principle why what Mark suggests cannot > be > > > > done. > > > > > I > > > > > > won't be the one to play with this idea any time soon as all my > > > > electronic > > > > > > bits and pieces are in the attic at another location. > > > > > > > > > > > > Jonathan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups > > > > > > > > > > ========================================================== > > > > > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > . Please feel free to send your input to: > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > . 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