Everything old is new, has a $31.5 billion price tag (plus, plus, if
history is any guide), no realistic implementation timeline (plus, plus,
if history is any guide), and is no better (if history is any guide)...
This is in part because the 'Brand New ATC System' concept, description
and RFI address none of the root causes that drive the need for ATC
intervention, and as a result, brick and mortar and waypoint
infrastructure, workload, staffing, and delays.
Specifically, no NAS user self-helps, or is incentivized to self-help,
or even seems interested in self-help, to system-optimize, reduce
self-created ATC workloads, mitigate its own contributions to
point-overload congestion, the need for ATC intervention, and resulting
delays.
No NAS user system-optimizes its day-of-flight
trajectories/timing/sequencing, reduces point overload
congestion/delays/flying minutes/emissions/costs, frees up capital/labor
assets/latent utilization, feeds benefits back into schedule plans.
System-optimization of day-of-flight aircraft trajectories are
stand-alone/hub and honest-brokered multi-airline/complex airspace
concepts independently proven to work and deliver the above results for
more than two decades.
Business as usual isn’t cutting it. Airlines could be incentivized with
best equipped/most compliant/best served tiers of service, and absent
that carrot should be mandated to engage self-help, in the nation's
interests.
Literally every constituency -- customers, employees, investors,
communities served, GDP, FAA, ATC workloads, and mitigating the need for
an increasing number of certified controllers included -- would benefit.
Having said that, there is brief mention of one possible conceptual area
of improvement -- consolidation.
A "Single-NAS" concept, CONUS free of sector boundaries from departure
control to arrival control, could eliminate most of the need for
controllers' foreground and background interaction, confirmations,
hand-offs, and related workload, brick and mortar infrastructure and
waypoints, and could facilitate the 'free flight' 'fly direct' that has
been promised since the 1970s, and fleet-installed and capable for decades.
- Bob Mann
On 7/17/2025 8:41 AM, Doug Church via Mifnet wrote:
We don't know that yet, Michael. There is a lot of amazing new
technology that is being developed out there that could open up a much
higher level of automation and efficiency in the system that very well
could result in a noticeable effect on flight delays. I've seen it
myself. Only thing stopping it from being installed is money and will
- and this current Administration and Congress so far is displaying
both in large amounts.
It's a potentially very exciting time for the industry. Like nothing
any of us have ever seen, only imagined.
-Doug Church
On Wed, Jul 16, 2025 at 7:10 PM ATHGroup--- via Mifnet
<mifnet@lists.mifnet.com> wrote:
Even if Duffy gest all the funds he wants in a timely manner (not
likely), this upgrade will do nothing for ATC delays.
Air traffic control overhaul to cost $31.5 billion, transportation
secretary tells Congress
<https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/air-traffic-control-overhaul-to-cost-31-5-billion-transportation-secretary-tells-congress/ar-AA1IJuwV?ocid=msedgntp&pc=LCTS&cvid=80406a933d3e4140c842e487d5262fd1&ei=28>
ATC does not cause delays. “/ATC Delays/” are a myth that everyone
just keeps repeating without a basis in fact. Does ATC vector and
delay aircraft near the airport - of course. But ATC is simply
reacting to the "/day of/", random point overload that
airlines/operators allowed to occur (described below), which was
evident and preventable by the individual airline/operator hours
prior to landing.
Of course, an equipment failure would cause a delay, but these are
Air Navigation Service Provider (ANSP, e.g., NATS, FAA, etc.)
delays and not “/ATC/” delays. There is a difference.
While leaving separation and safety to ATC, airlines must step up
and take over the real time, “/day of/” management over the
movement of their aircraft */to offload ATC to reduce system
stress/* and integrate the airline’s business needs into the flow.
This alone would have a huge positive impact on our aviation
infrastructure.
The solution is simple - if airlines prevented the stress created
by the "/day of/" random point overload by managing their aircraft
in real time, beginning hours prior to landing, so as to deliver a
stable, predictable, business based, pre sequenced aircraft flow
to the airport, ATC won't need to vector or delay the aircraft to
sequence the flow.
*/A pre-sorted aircraft arrival flow into an airport (managed by
the individual airline/user) = less vectoring = less stress = less
delay = less fuel = less CO2 = a more efficient and safer airline
and ATC system, and it starts with “day of” aircraft management by
the individual airline, not ATC./*
Michael
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
R. Michael Baiada
cell - (303) 521-6047
rmbai...@greenlandings.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revised: 20250507
You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list.
The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure
isn't exactly cost-free. If you'd care to make a small
contribution to the effort, please know that it would be greatly
appreciated:
https://wardell.us/url/mifbit
All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies:
1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a
privilege--not a right.
2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission
from the author.
3) The tone of discussions is collegial.
4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste.
5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill
of other Mifnet members.
* The Mifnet WEB SITE is:
https://www.mifnet.com/
* To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit:
https://lists.mifnet.com/
OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email:
mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=leave
<http://mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=leave>
* Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to:
mifnet@lists.mifnet.com
* You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at:
mifnet-ow...@lists.mifnet.com
* Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which
consolidates all list traffic into 1-3
messages daily. See instructions at:
https://lists.mifnet.com/
* Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at:
https://lists.mifnet.com/
* For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE
via email:
mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=help
<http://mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=help>
* View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at:
https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies
* View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at:
https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems
* View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at:
https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/mifnet@lists.mifnet.com/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revised: 20250507
You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list.
The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't exactly
cost-free. If you'd care to make a small contribution to the effort, please
know that it would be greatly appreciated:
https://wardell.us/url/mifbit
All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies:
1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a privilege--not a
right.
2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission from the author.
3) The tone of discussions is collegial.
4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste.
5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill of other
Mifnet members.
* The Mifnet WEB SITE is:
https://www.mifnet.com/
* To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit:
https://lists.mifnet.com/
OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email:mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=leave
* Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to:
mifnet@lists.mifnet.com
* You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at:
mifnet-ow...@lists.mifnet.com
* Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which consolidates all list
traffic into 1-3
messages daily. See instructions at:
https://lists.mifnet.com/
* Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at:
https://lists.mifnet.com/
* For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via email:
mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=help
* View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at:
https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies
* View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at:
https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems
* View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at:
https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/mifnet@lists.mifnet.com/
--
R.W. Mann & Company, Inc. >> Airline Industry Analysis
Port Washington, NY 11050 >> tel 516-944-0900, fax -7280
mailto:i...@rwmann.com >> URLhttp://www.RWMann.com/
This e-mail is for the designated recipient only and may contain
privileged or confidential information. If you have received it
in error, please notify the above sender immediately then delete
the original e-mail. Any other use of this e-mail is prohibited.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revised: 20250507
You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list.
The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't exactly
cost-free. If you'd care to make a small contribution to the effort, please
know that it would be greatly appreciated:
https://wardell.us/url/mifbit
All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies:
1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a privilege--not a
right.
2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission from the author.
3) The tone of discussions is collegial.
4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste.
5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill of other
Mifnet members.
* The Mifnet WEB SITE is:
https://www.mifnet.com/
* To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit:
https://lists.mifnet.com/
OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=leave
* Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to:
mifnet@lists.mifnet.com
* You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at:
mifnet-ow...@lists.mifnet.com
* Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which consolidates all list
traffic into 1-3
messages daily. See instructions at:
https://lists.mifnet.com/
* Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at:
https://lists.mifnet.com/
* For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via email:
mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=help
* View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at:
https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies
* View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at:
https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems
* View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at:
https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/mifnet@lists.mifnet.com/
