So, KC, is the discussion at an end ? After all, you are saying : You do yours, I'll do mine. Which ends the matter.
In truth, we seem to be refusing to see the moral issue, as distinct from the legal ( or even, the pragmatic one ) : freedom from fear. But, perhaps, that is not the issue being discussed in this thread ! ? However, I could appreciate Lee's position only in the light of that moral. On Feb 4, 10:00 pm, Kierkecraig <[email protected]> wrote: > Lee, > Again, all well and good. You keep doing what you do. Not telling > you to stop. Seems like its served you well. I'm not telling you we > should make it a law that you should have a gun in your home and that > you should kill intruders. I'm glad the burglars that came into your > home, without your permission, didn't hurt you, and didn't get hurt in > return. Doesn't sound like you have been so lucky every time, but > thats the risk you take. I for one will not take that risk with my > family, nor with my own life. Your ideals are your ideals, and mine > are mine. I do presume that someone who breaks into my house is there > to do harm. If I have the opportunity of course I will do everything > in my power to avoid shooting them, but not at the risk of my family > being hurt. > > On Feb 4, 9:54 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Hey KC, > > > Yes I realise this, what I'm really saying is that this presumption > > that you speak of is that, a presumtion, and a wrong one I belive. > > > And that this fear thing is not a great reason for gun advocates. > > > I have lived 40 years now and I have been burgurld twice during this > > time, in both cases the intruders took stuff out of the house and left > > me and mine alone. > > > Who's to say what may have happend had my father woke up and disturbed > > them, but I'll not assume that me and my family would then have been > > murdered. > > > Also during my 40 years I have had to protect myself and my family and > > often times this involved violence,(I was in fact the boy that carried > > his stabbed dad back home) yet I have never owned a gun and I manage > > to protect my self and my family fine without one. > > > Is fear really the best argument for pro guns? > > > On 4 Feb, 15:22, Kierkecraig <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Lee, > > > I can understand your personal feelings on the matter. Its very > > > understandable that you could never imagine yourself killing another > > > human being. That is a very good thing, by all means. And most gun > > > owners can never imagine it either. They aren't sitting in their > > > house, watching the clock, just hoping someone breaks in tonight so > > > that they can "bust a cap in their ass". If you think the risk of > > > shooting an "innocent" intruder isn't worth the benefit of protecting > > > yourself from truly malicious intruders, then thats perfectly your > > > decision to make. Someone who is a pro gun advocate is not telling > > > you that he wants to force you to keep a gun in your home and to shoot > > > intruders. He is only saying, leave me alone, let me do what I think > > > is right, which is protecting my life, and my families life. There is > > > a presumption, at least in the state in which I live, that if someone > > > is wrongfully in your home, especially at night, that they are there > > > to harm you. Everyone knows this. Everyone knocks on the door before > > > they go into your home. Burglars who are sneaking around at night in > > > someone's home are assuming the risk that they may be shot. They all > > > know this, and yet they think the benefit of what they will get in > > > that house, is worth the risk of getting shot. So no one is saying > > > you have to keep a gun Lee. We aren't going to try to convince you > > > that its a good idea. We are only saying, leave us alone, let us do > > > what we believe is the right thing to do. > > > > On Feb 4, 5:14 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > And this nicely sums up my stance. > > > > > There are those that will tell you they fell safe carrying a gun, safe > > > > from intruders to their homes, and safe from muggers on the the street > > > > and safe from the tiny percentage of other gus owneres that may go > > > > mental. > > > > > These same people will often tell you that they would kill an intruder > > > > to their house. Now this is the one tha t always gets me. > > > > > Partly I dislike the thought of gun ownership, because I know that I > > > > just could not point one at another human and pull the trigger, to > > > > imagine the mental anguish that I would go through being responsible > > > > for the death of another human, nope, just not for me. Added to this > > > > the reasons quoted for doing so. > > > > > To stop an intruder in your house, you have no idea what they are > > > > there for, whether they are armed or not, but because they have broken > > > > into your house you are allowed to kill them. > > > > > That seems like madness to me, and it worries me greatly that people > > > > cannot see it. > > > > > The very idea of guns to protect from guns, is a ludicrus circle that > > > > will not be broken with that argument. > > > > > On 2 Feb, 16:36, Kierkecraig <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Ian, > > > > > Its hard to tell who is more scared, it all depends on who is making > > > > > the argument. A couple years ago we had a controversy on our campus > > > > > at the University of Idaho about the right to carry on campus. In > > > > > Idaho you can carry anywhere you want, other than a courthouse. > > > > > However, the Universities have "policies" that say no carrying on > > > > > campus. Universities are state run institutions, and Idaho has > > > > > preemption laws that say the state legislature is the only one allowed > > > > > to legislate gun laws. Anyway, we had a public forum at the > > > > > University where we all got together to discuss the issue. I found it > > > > > interesting that both sides appealed to fear in their arguments. The > > > > > students against conceal carry on campus said that they wouldn't feel > > > > > safe knowing that people were packing guns, the students for conceal > > > > > carry were saying, they didn't feel safe being disarmed on a campus > > > > > where the closest law enforcement is at least ten minutes away, a lot > > > > > of people could get messed up before any law enforcement showed up. > > > > > One girl who was against concealed carry was from the UK, and she > > > > > swore that if we were allowed to carry on campus that she would have > > > > > to drop out of school. It turned into a pissing match over who was > > > > > more scared. Your experience is probably derived from the fact that > > > > > many people own guns because they are scared. They would be scared > > > > > with or without guns, but it is the fear that drives them to > > > > > purchase. So it isn't the gun that causes the fear, the gun is just a > > > > > result. > > > > > > On Feb 2, 9:16 am, Ian Pollard <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > 2009/2/2 Slip Disc <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > I was staggered to see how many people actually gave away the only > > > > > > > real protection they have. > > > > > > > You demonstrate perfectly the great irony at play here. People who > > > > > > own guns, > > > > > > in my experience, overwhelmingly feel less safe that those who do > > > > > > not own > > > > > > guns. > > > > > > > Single gun theory, my friend. > > > > > > > Ian- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
