Much can be assumed or hypothesised through absence Orn. I'm pretty sure we were more honest not that long ago than now - but we shouldn't get carried away with this. I think the real failure is that we haven't improved and that widening education hasn't worked. It's about being able to tell the truth to power -something very difficult when evidence is not understood. Chris is right about Africa and we could discuss that in here with some disagreement. Try and do it in a practical project and all kinds of pressures are brought to bear. Richard has a point on the UN - again we could argue the point. Yet I once found myself teaching the use of AKMs in one village to allow them better protection against some Asian UN forces. I've just done a paper at Heriot Watt in front of social workers and other agencies dealing with antisocial behaviour - it was widely accepted this was a very practical description of a current mess. Try to say anything critical in this locale and they lie and vilify, repeating the same mistakes and dumping on victims - acting frankly as behavioural monsters devoid of any abilities with evidence. 15 miles up the road projects I started are having results - some actually now included on a police web site of the very force that can't properly engage.
On 24 Feb, 15:59, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > "...Key in this, appears to be a lack of integrity - not > personal, but in the system in terms of fair investigation. Personal > virtue is now seen as something to cast out of systems, admittedly > under the pretence that it is there...." - Neil > > Interesting that virtues arise...seldom is the topic explored today. > Is there a list? What are they? etc. > > On Feb 24, 5:09 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Chinese fingers are indeed in lots of pies - have a look at what they > > are doing in Peru. The situation in Zimbabwe again really supports > > what Pinker is saying and most of us know - humans are pretty crap > > without law that can be relied on. There is something horribly tribal > > about some of the goings on on the estate around me. The cruelty of > > some of the bureaucrats involved frankly beggars belief too. They > > have no idea how cruel they are and could not possibly see what is > > Nazi in their attitudes, especially in the way they cannot report > > truth, only write-up what their political masters want to hear about > > success. Key in this, appears to be a lack of integrity - not > > personal, but in the system in terms of fair investigation. Personal > > virtue is now seen as something to cast out of systems, admittedly > > under the pretence that it is there. I have seen no one who could > > compete with Chris, Ian or Craig in any of the dross Sue and I have > > been swept up in - no Mollies, Orns, Vams, Slips or broadly the rest > > of us. Maybe a couple of cops. > > > There is a lot of open, racist talk in our pubs now. This isn't based > > on the old colour prejudice (possibly itself a middle-class myth), but > > on harder facts of resource allocation and discrimination against > > 'white poor' (a very old story) that I believe are real - though not a > > solution. I have a guess, that somewhere in Pinker, is something > > about trying to find what we can be proud of in civilisation - a very > > difficult thing to do in terms of rationality. > > > On 24 Feb, 03:35, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > "...I cannot and will not believe that the majority of even the most > > > outspoken Nationalist Nazi's would have condoned the Holocaust had > > > they actually been aware of what was going on. ..." - DJ > > > > Yes, it is difficult to accept. And, in fact, it was mostly the > > > bureaucrats who came to the 'final solution'. Having done this, it > > > could never have happened without at least the tacit acceptance of the > > > general populous...let alone the Nazis. Hitler was voted in because he > > > spoke to the minds of the people...they wanted jobs, he gave them > > > jobs. They, for a long time, had this nationalistic pride, he helped > > > it to manifest in the world. They felt the Jews were not only > > > outsiders, but less than human. He supported that view. > > > Here, in no way am I blaming the Germans. There were a lot of people > > > here in the USA that shared these views…a lot. > > > > On Feb 23, 5:14 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I haven't seen the movie. From what I've heard however, situations > > > > such as Rwanda and Darfur come about due to tribal hatred and mob rule > > > > violence. Very different from the calculated Hitler plan of Jewish > > > > extermination. I cannot and will not believe that the majority of > > > > even the most outspoken Nationalist Nazi's would have condoned the > > > > Holocaust had they actually been aware of what was going on. It's one > > > > thing to believe one's self superior and quite another to believe a > > > > whole race of people should be murdered and made into book covers, > > > > lamp shades and soap. > > > > > Mob rule is mob rule. Anyone is capable of anything when under this > > > > spell. The few that might voice restraint or caution are silenced > > > > with fear that they might be the next victim. Or their families. > > > > Think the Crucible. > > > > > dj > > > > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:15 PM, frantheman > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > I've just finished re-watching "Hotel Rwanda." It makes me a bit > > > > > sceptical about Pinker's arguments. I don't know how much further it > > > > > brings us to compare Genghis Khan with Hitler or the Thirty Years War > > > > > with Rwanda and then claim, all in all, we're getting better. How much > > > > > sense is there really in comparing the different circles of hell? > > > > > There is progress, as Richard points out, but we still have a very > > > > > long way to go. > > > > > > Francis > > > > > > On 21 Feb., 03:47, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> I do have this tendency to throw public notables out on a bed of > > > > >> nails > > > > >> to see which of you are inclined to take some steps across them. > > > > >> Ouch! However, this is not just about curiosity but evaluation of my > > > > >> views for either reinforcement or modification. > > > > >> Steven Pinker, the Johnstone Family Professor in the Department of > > > > >> Psychology at Harvard University has a lecture video in which he > > > > >> asserts humans to be peaceful by nature and merely corrupted by > > > > >> modern > > > > >> institutions and concluding that we are living very peaceful lives by > > > > >> historical comparisons. > > > > >> Pinker writes, "Now that social scientists have started to count > > > > >> bodies in different historical periods, they have discovered that the > > > > >> romantic theory gets it backward: Far from causing us to become more > > > > >> violent, something in modernity and its cultural institutions has > > > > >> made > > > > >> us nobler." > > > > >> This approach is a combination of empirical and biological study in > > > > >> contrast to former assertions formed upon human cultures and > > > > >> socialization without regard to biological recognition. > > > > >> Steven Pinker concludes that violence in the world has actually > > > > >> decreased, and conveys this idea in his "A History of Violence" > > > > >> lecturehttp://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/163 > > > > >> I for one never conceived of the notion but have tossed some bones > > > > >> around with my good friend gruff, who also asserts that mankind has > > > > >> made significant strides in the quest for a more peaceful existence > > > > >> in > > > > >> contrast to my view that man is as violent now as ever and desires > > > > >> aggressive conflict in perpetuity. > > > > >> I think Pinker's inclusion of such behaviors as cat burning in 16th > > > > >> century Paris is a stretch to expand the degree of historical > > > > >> violence, as is reference to human sacrifice, slavery, governmental > > > > >> conquests, real estate acquisition via genocide, torture and > > > > >> mutilation as routine punishment, the death penalty, assassination, > > > > >> massacres, conflict resolve through killing, all of which still take > > > > >> place in our time. Pinker also references Biblical examples of > > > > >> genocide and stoning deaths for any number of infractions, also > > > > >> attributing the same and similar torturous behaviors to historical > > > > >> accounts of Hindus, Christians, Muslims, and Chinese, etc. > > > > >> Pointing to a "change is sensibility" Pinker writes: "Violence has > > > > >> been in decline over long stretches of history, and today we are > > > > >> probably living in the most peaceful moment of our species' time on > > > > >> earth." > > > > > >> Somehow I can't seem to dance to the tune. > > > > > >> Please take the time to view this lecture, only 19 minutes and > > > > >> respond > > > > >> as to........... > > > > > >> Truth or Wishful Thinking? > > > > > >> State your Stance!- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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