Richard is right - it's what comes on reflection on "progress" that opens up the sore over and again. The danger, which I'm sure he doesn't imply, is treating things as hunky-dory because there has been some progress. Pinker always make it clear there is much left to do - that the Enlightenment Project is incomplete. There is much we could focus on in very practical ways - such as the irradication of malaria in Africa - which would give them a production capacity. I actually feel we do not have a clear grasp on our increased capacities and what we can do right - this prevents us moving beyond the irrationalities and corruptions of current social ordering. The madness of Utopian Rationalism or Soviet Paradise ideas are no help in this, and nor does any 'anything goes' postmodernism help.
"Great projects" like the Olympics and International Bwanking show that we have great organising capacities over nothing worthwhile - what might we be able to do over the worthwhile? On 25 Feb, 23:49, [email protected] wrote: > Richard, I enjoy reading your comments. I just recently peeked into this > group. There is a certain point where the discussion just arrives back at > the same place over and over again. I'm looking for that one different > thought. Yours are refreshing. > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:47 PM, RichardM <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > There is always slippage between a stated ideal and its application, > > since people are imperfect and groups of people are generally more > > imperfect still. On the other hand, the Universal Declaration of > > Human Rights is at least paid lip service around the world, and taken > > seriously by many people, including my friends who have taken real > > risks bringing relief to Darfur. We can also see it in individual > > countries: compare the U.S. today, with all its acknowledged > > problems, to the U.S. before the Civil Rights Act of 1964, or the U.S. > > before 1861. The harder the problems, the longer they will take to > > deal with, but we have dealt with many of them and will deal with more > > in our time and after. > > > On Feb 24, 7:03 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Much can be assumed or hypothesised through absence Orn. I'm pretty > > > sure we were more honest not that long ago than now - but we shouldn't > > > get carried away with this. I think the real failure is that we > > > haven't improved and that widening education hasn't worked. It's > > > about being able to tell the truth to power -something very difficult > > > when evidence is not understood. Chris is right about Africa and we > > > could discuss that in here with some disagreement. Try and do it in a > > > practical project and all kinds of pressures are brought to bear. > > > Richard has a point on the UN - again we could argue the point. Yet I > > > once found myself teaching the use of AKMs in one village to allow > > > them better protection against some Asian UN forces. > > > I've just done a paper at Heriot Watt in front of social workers and > > > other agencies dealing with antisocial behaviour - it was widely > > > accepted this was a very practical description of a current mess. Try > > > to say anything critical in this locale and they lie and vilify, > > > repeating the same mistakes and dumping on victims - acting frankly as > > > behavioural monsters devoid of any abilities with evidence. 15 miles > > > up the road projects I started are having results - some actually now > > > included on a police web site of the very force that can't properly > > > engage. > > > > On 24 Feb, 15:59, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > "...Key in this, appears to be a lack of integrity - not > > > > personal, but in the system in terms of fair investigation. Personal > > > > virtue is now seen as something to cast out of systems, admittedly > > > > under the pretence that it is there...." - Neil > > > > > Interesting that virtues arise...seldom is the topic explored today. > > > > Is there a list? What are they? etc. > > > > > On Feb 24, 5:09 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Chinese fingers are indeed in lots of pies - have a look at what they > > > > > are doing in Peru. The situation in Zimbabwe again really supports > > > > > what Pinker is saying and most of us know - humans are pretty crap > > > > > without law that can be relied on. There is something horribly > > tribal > > > > > about some of the goings on on the estate around me. The cruelty of > > > > > some of the bureaucrats involved frankly beggars belief too. They > > > > > have no idea how cruel they are and could not possibly see what is > > > > > Nazi in their attitudes, especially in the way they cannot report > > > > > truth, only write-up what their political masters want to hear about > > > > > success. Key in this, appears to be a lack of integrity - not > > > > > personal, but in the system in terms of fair investigation. Personal > > > > > virtue is now seen as something to cast out of systems, admittedly > > > > > under the pretence that it is there. I have seen no one who could > > > > > compete with Chris, Ian or Craig in any of the dross Sue and I have > > > > > been swept up in - no Mollies, Orns, Vams, Slips or broadly the rest > > > > > of us. Maybe a couple of cops. > > > > > > There is a lot of open, racist talk in our pubs now. This isn't > > based > > > > > on the old colour prejudice (possibly itself a middle-class myth), > > but > > > > > on harder facts of resource allocation and discrimination against > > > > > 'white poor' (a very old story) that I believe are real - though not > > a > > > > > solution. I have a guess, that somewhere in Pinker, is something > > > > > about trying to find what we can be proud of in civilisation - a very > > > > > difficult thing to do in terms of rationality. > > > > > > On 24 Feb, 03:35, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > "...I cannot and will not believe that the majority of even the > > most > > > > > > outspoken Nationalist Nazi's would have condoned the Holocaust had > > > > > > they actually been aware of what was going on. ..." - DJ > > > > > > > Yes, it is difficult to accept. And, in fact, it was mostly the > > > > > > bureaucrats who came to the 'final solution'. Having done this, it > > > > > > could never have happened without at least the tacit acceptance of > > the > > > > > > general populous...let alone the Nazis. Hitler was voted in because > > he > > > > > > spoke to the minds of the people...they wanted jobs, he gave them > > > > > > jobs. They, for a long time, had this nationalistic pride, he > > helped > > > > > > it to manifest in the world. They felt the Jews were not only > > > > > > outsiders, but less than human. He supported that view. > > > > > > Here, in no way am I blaming the Germans. There were a lot of > > people > > > > > > here in the USA that shared these views…a lot. > > > > > > > On Feb 23, 5:14 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > I haven't seen the movie. From what I've heard however, > > situations > > > > > > > such as Rwanda and Darfur come about due to tribal hatred and mob > > rule > > > > > > > violence. Very different from the calculated Hitler plan of > > Jewish > > > > > > > extermination. I cannot and will not believe that the majority > > of > > > > > > > even the most outspoken Nationalist Nazi's would have condoned > > the > > > > > > > Holocaust had they actually been aware of what was going on. > > It's one > > > > > > > thing to believe one's self superior and quite another to believe > > a > > > > > > > whole race of people should be murdered and made into book > > covers, > > > > > > > lamp shades and soap. > > > > > > > > Mob rule is mob rule. Anyone is capable of anything when under > > this > > > > > > > spell. The few that might voice restraint or caution are > > silenced > > > > > > > with fear that they might be the next victim. Or their families. > > > > > > > Think the Crucible. > > > > > > > > dj > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:15 PM, frantheman < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I've just finished re-watching "Hotel Rwanda." It makes me a > > bit > > > > > > > > sceptical about Pinker's arguments. I don't know how much > > further it > > > > > > > > brings us to compare Genghis Khan with Hitler or the Thirty > > Years War > > > > > > > > with Rwanda and then claim, all in all, we're getting better. > > How much > > > > > > > > sense is there really in comparing the different circles of > > hell? > > > > > > > > There is progress, as Richard points out, but we still have a > > very > > > > > > > > long way to go. > > > > > > > > > Francis > > > > > > > > > On 21 Feb., 03:47, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > >> I do have this tendency to throw public notables out on a bed > > of nails > > > > > > > >> to see which of you are inclined to take some steps across > > them. > > > > > > > >> Ouch! However, this is not just about curiosity but > > evaluation of my > > > > > > > >> views for either reinforcement or modification. > > > > > > > >> Steven Pinker, the Johnstone Family Professor in the > > Department of > > > > > > > >> Psychology at Harvard University has a lecture video in which > > he > > > > > > > >> asserts humans to be peaceful by nature and merely corrupted > > by modern > > > > > > > >> institutions and concluding that we are living very peaceful > > lives by > > > > > > > >> historical comparisons. > > > > > > > >> Pinker writes, "Now that social scientists have started to > > count > > > > > > > >> bodies in different historical periods, they have discovered > > that the > > > > > > > >> romantic theory gets it backward: Far from causing us to > > become more > > > > > > > >> violent, something in modernity and its cultural institutions > > has made > > > > > > > >> us nobler." > > > > > > > >> This approach is a combination of empirical and biological > > study in > > > > > > > >> contrast to former assertions formed upon human cultures and > > > > > > > >> socialization without regard to biological recognition. > > > > > > > >> Steven Pinker concludes that violence in the world has > > actually > > > > > > > >> decreased, and conveys this idea in his "A History of > > Violence" > > > > > > > >> lecturehttp://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/163 > > > > > > > >> I for one never conceived of the notion but have tossed some > > bones > > > > > > > >> around with my good friend gruff, who also asserts that > > mankind has > > > > > > > >> made significant strides in the quest for a more peaceful > > existence in > > > > > > > >> contrast to my view that man is as violent now as ever and > > desires > > > > > > > >> aggressive conflict in perpetuity. > > > > > > > >> I think Pinker's inclusion of such behaviors as cat burning in > > 16th > > > > > > > >> century Paris is a stretch to expand the degree of historical > > > > > > > >> violence, as is reference to human sacrifice, slavery, > > governmental > > ... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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