I think gruff's link concerning Sweden and Denmark picks up on one of the underlying issues we discussed at the beginning of this thread, concerning the viewpoint often expressed by many self-defined religious people that belief in God and membership of a religious group (usually theirs) is a prerequisite for a moral position and necessary for a moral society - as exemplified in this link: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,618746,00.html
As someone who defines himself (in conventional terms) as agnostic/ atheist, I find such positions personally offensive and insulting. Francis On 15 Apr., 11:39, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > If your mind is feeble mine must be near the state of decomposure. > I'll let you and Molly work out the paradox suggestion. > > The article is still airy and I can see that you are not finding it as > totally reliable with the word "think" in your paragraph appearing 5 > times. I've known you to be more deliberate as you are in the last > paragraph. I do agree that religion has been responsible for untold > atrocities throughout the annals of human history, Still we cannot > discount that numerous benefits have been attributed to religion > simultaneously. Many acts of kindness, caring and giving occur because > some faction of humanity thinks it is the right thing to do in > accordance with their belief system. I'm sure Mother Teresa was happy > in what she was doing and I've known to many benevolent religious > people to harbor a jaundiced view as a generality towards religion. > For the right people it is the right thing. > > As for Denmark.................. > > In a 1999 EVS poll presented in the International Religious Freedom > Report 2005 Danes were asked to identify the nature of their belief in > God. > > * 21% said "A personal God" > * 31% said "A spiritual force" > * 19% said "I don't know what to believe" > * 23% said "I don't believe there is a God" > * 6% did not respond > > In spite of this, 82.1% of the Danish population remain members of the > Evangelical Lutheran Church, and a large majority of people attend > churches for baptisms, weddings, and funerals. > > The generally amicable relationship among religious groups in society > contributed to religious freedom. The country has a long history of > welcoming religious minorities and affording them equal treatment. > There are generally amicable relations between religious groups, > although the influx of a substantial Muslim population over the last > several years resulted in some tension between Muslims and the rest of > the population. In September 2004, the International Helsinki > Federation for Human Rights concluded in a report that the overall > political climate for Muslims in the country has deteriorated since > 2001. > > http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51549.htm > > It seems as though the Muslim population, globally, are causing a > serious problem akin to that of the crusades, one that needs to be > addressed and examined in another thread, I think! > > On Apr 15, 3:24 am, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Actually I see no paradox in the universe ... all is explainable to my > > feeble mind. > > > But I don't think the article was attributing tension, violence, > > poverty, etc. to religion, though I think I could build a good case > > for it. I think the article points out that Sweden and Denmark are, > > by at least some measures, happier and more prosperous than more > > religious countries. Nor do I think the article even alludes to the > > drug use in Amsterdam most of which is by tourists I think. > > > The tie to this thread is that one doesn't need religion to be happy > > and prosperous or even moral and in some cases -- many to my mind -- > > even more moral without religion. It is my personal belief that > > religion has been the cause of more strife and suffering in this world > > than any other factor. > > > On Apr 14, 4:32 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I'm sure you could pick out one paradox from the many that you can get > > > a grip on, gruff {;-) Bravo! > > > > I don't get the connection in the godlessness link or more so it seems > > > like its floating on air. To attribute tension, violence, poverty, > > > oppression, inequality, and disorder to religion is a fetch, a stretch > > > and a rubber duck. (had to throw that in) I'm not a religious advocate > > > but there is not enough evidence presented to draw such conclusions. > > > I don't think there is enough demographic diversity in the > > > presentation or it seems to draw upon loose statistics. I mean, what > > > else is going on in Denmark that might be making people happy? I > > > thought Denmark has legalized marijuana for personal use, and > > > legalized gay marriage. Either way I'm sure it is easy to obtain > > > grass, hash or hallucinogens which of course can present a society > > > that is euphoric. > > > > On Apr 13, 11:41 am, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > "... On Apr 13, 5:13 am, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: ..." > > > > > > Embrace the paradox! > > > > > But there are so many and my arms are not so huge. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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