Tinker, the tone of your posts doesn't particularly serve to make your
claim to have reached some new level of spiritual illumination
particularly credible. I would expect someone who claims to have
attained new spiritual insights to be courteous and compassionate
towards others who appear to be honest seekers - along the lines of
the old maxim, "by their fruits shall ye know them."

Francis

On 8 Mai, 22:04, Tinker <[email protected]> wrote:
> My dear Lady,
>
> He sounds to me like someone telling their grandfather he ought to
> find a lady and have some kids :-)
> I've been through all of that BS and it goes nowhere.
> I'm talking about taking action here and now to bring about the
> evolution of mankind to become spiritual beings.
> All of your spiritual beliefs are 'wannabe' what I'm talking about.
>
> peace & Love
>
> On May 8, 3:29 pm, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Don't be so quick to dismiss what Justin is trying to tell you.  There
> > is a truth for you there.
>
> > On May 8, 1:07 pm, Tinker <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Guess again :-)
>
> > > peace & Love
>
> > > On May 8, 3:55 am, Justintruth <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > So, who’s right? Is it one out of the jumbled clusterfuck of spiritual
> > > > > beliefs? Or is it the Fact, that Life IS here and now.
> > > > > The ‘Dream of Utopia’ points at Life, not some spiritual other shit.
> > > > > That’s why I ask if it’s dead.
>
> > > > Well Ok, but you are setting up a false dilemma. Above you have
> > > > capitalized the following words "Fact", "Life" and a double capital of
> > > > "IS".
>
> > > > Basically, if you consider what something is, like "its red" or "its
> > > > round" you are considering its nature, or its essence. It is possible
> > > > however to cease to consider what is and turn your consideration to
> > > > the fact that it is. When you do you transcend what life is and
> > > > consider the fact that it is, or to use your writing, the Fact, that
> > > > Life IS. Now, it turns out that you can experience the fact that life
> > > > is in some very, what are called, "profound" ways. You can either
> > > > appreciate its meaning fully or not. When you no longer are
> > > > considering what is but the fact that it is you are going beyond the
> > > > physical to the metaphysical, or going beyond the natural to the
> > > > supernatural or going beyond the sensory to the extrasensory. That is
> > > > the "some spiritual other shit" because it is not what is, but rather
> > > > is the fact that it is. That is why it is "other" or transcendent. It
> > > > is also Immanent meaning roughly "here and now." That is why "the
> > > > Fact, that Life IS here and now" IS "some spiritual other shit"... it
> > > > just happens to be YOUR "some spiritual other shit".
>
> > > > It turns out that the appreciation of the meaning of the fact that
> > > > life is in its fullest sense is the experience underlying all of the
> > > > religions. The meaning  of that experience is expressed, indirectly
> > > > through the books and stories that constitute the religious texts and
> > > > genuine religious activity and mythology is about the problem of
> > > > knowing what it means to be and is part of the intellectual history of
> > > > mankind.
>
> > > > You might think it is easy to know what it means. It is not.
>
> > > > Now many activities and beliefs interpret these texts literally. For
> > > > them God is basically like any other thing capable of either being or
> > > > not being and they believe he "happens" to be. They interpret religion
> > > > not existentially but essentially. They think it is about what is not
> > > > the fact that it is. These people are fundamentalists. Their
> > > > interpretation is truly not even religious. It is just bad science.
>
> > > > However, when the religions are not interpreted essentially then we
> > > > can see their value. Their value is in their appreciation of the
> > > > meaning of "the Fact, that Life IS here and now." So you raise a false
> > > > dilemma between religion and what you are saying.
>
> > > > With respect to Utopia I recommend that you read Kierkeguard  on
> > > > despair "The Sickness Unto Death". He analyzes what despair really is
> > > > and how one falls into its clutches. It is truly a very big problem.
> > > > Utopia is not being realized because of something that is called Maya
> > > > or illusion in the hindu literature. It is called original sin in the
> > > > christian literature. In the Hindu litterature it is noted that all
> > > > suffering comes from a failure to realize the true nature of life.
>
> > > > To put as close to your terminology as I can: When "the fact, that
> > > > life that life is here and now" fails to become "the Fact, that Life
> > > > IS here and now" then there is suffering.
>
> > > > You should be careful about prematurely cutting out the meaning of the
> > > > religions because you correctly realize that their literal
> > > > interpretation is false and even distracting.
>
> > > > Now to the most important question: Is the dream dead. I think the
> > > > answer is no. Not even in the most evil would I say dead... or at
> > > > least not completely incapable of being resurrected. We know basically
> > > > that there is this problem, the problem  of Maya or original sin and
> > > > there is this clouding of our vision but religious experience still
> > > > happens. The real question can be posed in terms of the myth of Lot
> > > > and his fleeing of his city. The dream is alive. We are like in a game
> > > > with the stakes doubling. The technical capabilities we have for
> > > > communication now are making possible a major reawakening. They also
> > > > make possible our destruction and these capabilities, the ones we
> > > > currently have are nothing compared to what is in the biological
> > > > design / neurology synergy. We are about to become very capable. Are
> > > > we responding to it is the question.
>
> > > > Good luck.
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