You're right that an idea can't be taught or delivered. How about a universal symbol that just points at the connection?
peace & love On May 8, 9:25 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > Oh, and regarding picking on the "plan"... > Your OP sounds more like a general philosophy question than a plan, and I > would answer that the right here IS the spiritual shit...IF you so choose to > draw something spiritual out of it. I think the "spiritual" moments I have > are nothing more than "A-ha!" moments where I make some fantastic connection > in my head, draw some deeper understanding of myself, or the world around > me, and they are as likely to be scientific as they are "spiritual" in > nature, but I draw just the same "cosmic" energy experience that any > Christian or Wiccan or Buddhist does from their spiritual moment. It's a > moment of transcendence from what you were one moment ago. The bonus of > being an atheist is that you can have secular "spiritual" moments in > accomplishment, in realization, in orgasm and other hedonistic pleasures, > which are channels that those locked into various spiritual dogmas deny any > validity. > > I don't think this is something that can be taught, or delivered. I think > it's something that has to be found, and discovered for one's self. Faith is > akin to conservation of energy. It can neither be given, nor taken...only > changed from within. > > As always, IMHO. > > On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 9:11 PM, Tinker <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Chris, you are talking about a personal thing that I agree with. > > I'm talking about changing the way of Society. It will not happen > > without the execution of a plan designed to achieve the goal. > > > I would really like to hear what you have to say about the plan I've > > been "proselytizing". > > Quit picking on me, pick on the plan :-) > > > peace & Love > > > On May 8, 6:23 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > > No plan is necessary to move beyond religion. One simply does. As Fran > > > noted, he, myself, Ian, and many others on here are agnostic or atheist. > > I > > > lost the need for religion long ago. I didn't need a plan...I simply > > didn't > > > need religion. In proselytizing your plan, you are coming across as that > > > which you decry. > > > > On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Tinker <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Yes sir, I have and do. > > > > Fran, do you have or do you know of a plan to move beyond religion? > > > > Am I arrogant because I do have a plan? > > > > The religions have a lot of good stuff in them. A lot of that good > > > > stuff is 'common' to them and is what I go forward with. I am not > > > > intentionally putting down anybody's beliefs, I am simply defending my > > > > own. > > > > > peace & Love > > > > > On May 8, 4:42 pm, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Tinker, I have to wonder if you actually read and understand what > > > > > others post here. Five hours ago, I stated clearly that I believe > > that > > > > > the time has come for humanity to move beyond religion. As I have > > > > > repeatedly stated here, I am an agnostic/atheist. > > > > > > Nonetheless, it strikes me as pretty arrogant to simply dismiss all > > of > > > > > what people have thought and reasoned within a religious context > > > > > (particularly as, for most of human history, a non-religious > > > > > standpoint was simply inconceivable) as bullshit. It's like saying > > > > > that Caesar was a bad general because he didn't use tanks and have > > air- > > > > > support. > > > > > > Francis > > > > > > On 8 Mai, 22:19, Tinker <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Fran, what you would expect is the BS of religions gone past > > failing > > > > > > for thousands of years. > > > > > > I am rude and crude in your face trying to get you to wake up from > > the > > > > > > apathy of those failed religions. > > > > > > > peace & Love > > > > > > > On May 8, 4:12 pm, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Tinker, the tone of your posts doesn't particularly serve to make > > > > your > > > > > > > claim to have reached some new level of spiritual illumination > > > > > > > particularly credible. I would expect someone who claims to have > > > > > > > attained new spiritual insights to be courteous and compassionate > > > > > > > towards others who appear to be honest seekers - along the lines > > of > > > > > > > the old maxim, "by their fruits shall ye know them." > > > > > > > > Francis > > > > > > > > On 8 Mai, 22:04, Tinker <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > My dear Lady, > > > > > > > > > He sounds to me like someone telling their grandfather he ought > > to > > > > > > > > find a lady and have some kids :-) > > > > > > > > I've been through all of that BS and it goes nowhere. > > > > > > > > I'm talking about taking action here and now to bring about the > > > > > > > > evolution of mankind to become spiritual beings. > > > > > > > > All of your spiritual beliefs are 'wannabe' what I'm talking > > about. > > > > > > > > > peace & Love > > > > > > > > > On May 8, 3:29 pm, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Don't be so quick to dismiss what Justin is trying to tell > > you. > > > > There > > > > > > > > > is a truth for you there. > > > > > > > > > > On May 8, 1:07 pm, Tinker <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Guess again :-) > > > > > > > > > > > peace & Love > > > > > > > > > > > On May 8, 3:55 am, Justintruth <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, who’s right? Is it one out of the jumbled > > clusterfuck > > > > of spiritual > > > > > > > > > > > > beliefs? Or is it the Fact, that Life IS here and now. > > > > > > > > > > > > The ‘Dream of Utopia’ points at Life, not some > > spiritual > > > > other shit. > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s why I ask if it’s dead. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well Ok, but you are setting up a false dilemma. Above > > you > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > capitalized the following words "Fact", "Life" and a > > double > > > > capital of > > > > > > > > > > > "IS". > > > > > > > > > > > > Basically, if you consider what something is, like "its > > red" > > > > or "its > > > > > > > > > > > round" you are considering its nature, or its essence. It > > is > > > > possible > > > > > > > > > > > however to cease to consider what is and turn your > > > > consideration to > > > > > > > > > > > the fact that it is. When you do you transcend what life > > is > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > consider the fact that it is, or to use your writing, the > > > > Fact, that > > > > > > > > > > > Life IS. Now, it turns out that you can experience the > > fact > > > > that life > > > > > > > > > > > is in some very, what are called, "profound" ways. You > > can > > > > either > > > > > > > > > > > appreciate its meaning fully or not. When you no longer > > are > > > > > > > > > > > considering what is but the fact that it is you are going > > > > beyond the > > > > > > > > > > > physical to the metaphysical, or going beyond the natural > > to > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > supernatural or going beyond the sensory to the > > extrasensory. > > > > That is > > > > > > > > > > > the "some spiritual other shit" because it is not what > > is, > > > > but rather > > > > > > > > > > > is the fact that it is. That is why it is "other" or > > > > transcendent. It > > > > > > > > > > > is also Immanent meaning roughly "here and now." That is > > why > > > > "the > > > > > > > > > > > Fact, that Life IS here and now" IS "some spiritual other > > > > shit"... it > > > > > > > > > > > just happens to be YOUR "some spiritual other shit". > > > > > > > > > > > > It turns out that the appreciation of the meaning of the > > fact > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > life is in its fullest sense is the experience underlying > > all > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > > > religions. The meaning of that experience is expressed, > > > > indirectly > > > > > > > > > > > through the books and stories that constitute the > > religious > > > > texts and > > > > > > > > > > > genuine religious activity and mythology is about the > > problem > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > knowing what it means to be and is part of the > > intellectual > > > > history of > > > > > > > > > > > mankind. > > > > > > > > > > > > You might think it is easy to know what it means. It is > > not. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now many activities and beliefs interpret these texts > > > > literally. For > > > > > > > > > > > them God is basically like any other thing capable of > > either > > > > being or > > > > > > > > > > > not being and they believe he "happens" to be. They > > interpret > > > > religion > > > > > > > > > > > not existentially but essentially. They think it is about > > > > what is not > > > > > > > > > > > the fact that it is. These people are fundamentalists. > > Their > > > > > > > > > > > interpretation is truly not even religious. It is just > > bad > > > > science. > > > > > > > > > > > > However, when the religions are not interpreted > > essentially > > > > then we > > > > > > > > > > > can see their value. Their value is in their appreciation > > of > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > meaning of "the Fact, that Life IS here and now." So you > > > > raise a false > > > > > > > > > > > dilemma between religion and what you are saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > With respect to Utopia I recommend that you read > > Kierkeguard > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > despair "The Sickness Unto Death". He analyzes what > > despair > > > > really is > > > > > > > > > > > and how one falls into its clutches. It is truly a very > > big > > > > problem. > > > > > > > > > > > Utopia is not being realized because of something that is > > > > called Maya > > > > > > > > > > > or illusion in the hindu literature. It is called > > original > > > > sin in the > > > > > > > > > > > christian literature. In the Hindu litterature it is > > noted > > > > that all > > > > > > > > > > > suffering comes from a failure to realize the true nature > > of > > > > life. > > > > > > > > > > > > To put as close to your terminology as I can: When "the > > fact, > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > life that life > > ... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
