Fran, thanks for laying that out in a precise format, the puzzle pieces seem to come together and allow the formation of a visual of how it all transpires. While the ethnic part is overplayed and seems to take the forefront position I do think the ethnicity situations are corollary to the cultural/socio-economic problems.
On Aug 18, 4:34 am, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > I think the "ethnic" part of this is overplayed. What we are looking > at is a cultural and socio-economic problem. Developed countries > attract immigration from less developed countries and this basic fact > brings all the consequences we're discussing here. In the US (at the > moment) it's about "Hispanics" (Mexico, the Carribbean/Cuba etc. - > "blacks" are a special case, which I'll address later). In the UK it's > the Caribbean and the Indian subcontinent, in Holland, Indonesia, > Surinam and Morocco, in Germany, Turkey (and - to an extent - former > Yugoslavia), etc., etc. > > The basic characteristics are the same. The immigrant group comes from > a less developed region, with its own language, culture, tradition and > religion(s). In general, the area of origin has a tradition of strong > family structures, large families and poor education. They locate > themselves in their new homelands at the bottom of the socio-economic > ladder, often in the grey area between legality and illegality with > regard to their residency status. They fill a socio-economic niche in > the area of unskilled, casual semi-legal labour (and the underworld in > general). This niche, however, is not unoccupied, and it's a tough > area, so there are extra complications of turf wars and resentment > from the (still socially weak) groups already there, which, however, > are often starting to move up the ladder. This is US history for the > past 150 years. > > The second (and third) generation often have it worst. They belong to > neither one world nor the other. Their new homeland gives them > expectations which they, because of their cultural (and economic) > "otherness" and frequently poor educational integration, are not able > to achieve. The result is resentment and alienation - something which > is particularly dangerous among young males betwen 15 and 30. None of > this is new either - anyone remember West Side Story? And, if other > factors are not conducive to integration, traditional fertility > remains high, with the difference that child mortality falls in > comparison to the region of origin. > > Various factors can ameliorate or exacerbate the problem. Strong > economic expansion helps (as in the US in the second half of the 19th > Century or western Europe after WWII). A readiness to accept the new > culture on the part of the immigrants is helpful (the Italians, Irish > and Poles in the US) - this brings the corollary of linguistic > integration (which often includes the "forgetting" of the original > language by the third generation). An important aspect is the attitude > of immigrants to education; groups of Chinese and Indochinese origins > have historically a very good track record here. > > And then there are the efforts (or lack of them) of the host country > with regard to integration. Public housing policy can be crucial here > - the creation (or spontaneous growth) of "ethnic" ghettoes can > torpedo many other positive aspects. This is something that the > French, above all, have painfully learned with regard to Maghreb > immigrants. > > Religion, as part of the socio-cultural matrix, is a very important > factor. Europe, with a general (post-)Christian tradition, has major > problems with Islam - or Islam has a major problem with pluralist, > secular western values, if you prefer. The path of trying to ignore > this with warm, wooly, multi-culti, tolerant liberalism, as practiced > in Western Europe up to the end of the 20th. Century has not worked, > because large parts of Islamic thinking are actively hostile to and > contemptuous of this mindset. Europe is still searching for answers > here - but it's an issue which has very little to do with "ethnicity." > > And, finally, there's the question of colour. This, however, in my > view, has little to do with "innate ethnic" factors, it is simply an > ineluctable fact, which remains, no matter how other factors function > positively or negatively. A dark-skinned person in a majority light- > skinned society, or vice versa, remains immediately, identifiably > "other." And "otherness" will always induce fear and suspicion, > particularly among those who are socially, economically and > intellectually weak. It remains an irrational, knee-jerk reaction > which a rational, maturing society has to come to terms with. As the > US has (at least partly) symbolically done with the election of an > Afro-American president. > > Francis > > On 18 Aug., 09:13, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > It is that we've made great strides in overcoming the biases, we have > > a multi-racial government, court systems and local jurisdictions so I > > don't see it as a common observation. Perhaps I've been living in a > > microcosm of peace and tranquility too long. I'm often shocked by > > these behaviors, I mean we have a black President, we've advanced or > > so I thought we did. Not? > > > On Aug 18, 12:42 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > This isn't an uncommon observation, but I've yet to hear why you think > > > this > > > is peculiar or interesting, or what the quirk in society that is being > > > uncovered is. I don't find it peculiar at all, I find it to be > > > predictable, > > > common, and expected. The least common denominator of society has indeed > > > reached the internet, and groups together around bright lights of > > > interest. > > > What do you think this reveals? > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 1:27 AM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > This is the first post that I feel is pertinent to the thread as I > > > > intended, I think you are now onto what I was thinking about. > > > > Exactly, the white cop shot the black suspect and in the credit card > > > > and data theft article there was not mention of race, yet because the > > > > name Gonzales was given the commenters mostly focused on the > > > > ethnicity. If the same charge was against a Charles Drumond, nothing > > > > would have been said about immigration or ethnicity. I find this very > > > > peculiar and interesting and I think it once again uncovers a quirk in > > > > our society. > > > > As far as the purity goes, I'm hoping to break my record! lol > > > > > On Aug 18, 12:12 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > And with that in mind... > > > > > I've often though about the selectiveness of ethnicity in media every > > > > time I > > > > > see a story that starts out "White cop shoots black suspect", but note > > > > that > > > > > those descriptives are missing when the ethnicities are reversed. I > > > > > don't > > > > > find it at all surprising that you find a comment thread on an > > > > > internet > > > > > forum where some people mouth off about a specific ethnicity, or make > > > > some > > > > > gross generalizations. Anonymity leads to stupidity, and thus John > > > > Gabriel's > > > > > Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory: > > > > > >http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/ > > > > > > <http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/>The point of > > > > > contention, I > > > > > think, rests with the use of the word 'Predictor' in your subject > > > > > line, > > > > as > > > > > it relates to the content herein. How do you think this is predicted, > > > > > or > > > > > what do you think it predicts, or is that simply carrying on the theme > > > > from > > > > > before? I found those comments to be tame, all things considered...the > > > > > average prattling of some compartmentalized people whose lives have > > > > > been > > > > so > > > > > walled in from the world that they fear everything around them which > > > > > is > > > > not > > > > > as predictably bland as the eggshell walls and mashed potatoes that > > > > > make > > > > up > > > > > their existence. > > > > > > Now, you want comments that are scary? > > > > > > Go read these comments: > > > > > >http://www.stormfront.org/ > > > > > > ...and tell me what the predictor of THAT is. > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 12:59 AM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Thank you on the PS and thanks for the script. > > > > > > "I don't think my take on this particular issue that I'm using as an > > > > > > example has any bearing on the greater point." > > > > > > > On Aug 17, 11:15 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > So a reasonable response could certainly have been "I don't think > > > > > > > my > > > > take > > > > > > on > > > > > > > this particular issue that I'm using as an example has any > > > > > > > bearing on > > > > the > > > > > > > greater point." > > > > > > > I think several folks would disagree. What's more, it may be > > > > reasonable > > > > > > in > > > > > > > discovering what your position is on these ethnic predictors, to > > > > > > > see > > > > > > their > > > > > > > effect on you. You seem rather worked up about the whole thing, so > > > > that > > > > > > > could be part of the issue. Instead of popping a capillary in your > > > > > > temple, > > > > > > > why don't you take a breath and actually think about what's being > > > > asked > > > > > > and > > > > > > > said? You may find your frustration has been both poorly aimed, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > easily > > > > > > > earned. > > > > > > > > P.S. You definitely earn that thread purity champion medal fresh > > > > every > > > > > > day. > > > > > > > You're the Usain Bolt of Thread Purity. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 12:02 AM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > > > It is Not about illegal immigration. It IS about Ethnic > > > > > > > > Predictors > > > > and > > > > > > > > so the examples I provided are real time and show how society > > > > > > > > still > > > > > > > > harbors concepts that lead to "Ethnic Predictors". > > > > > > > > Again I have to say there is not a shred of personal opinion > > > > > > > > here, > > > > not > > > > > > > > an inkling of what I'm thinking about. It is merely a > > > > presentation, > > > > > > > > which is available online anyway, of what people are saying > > > > regarding > > > > > > > > a person who is charged with "credit card and data theft." > > > > > > > > Obviously people are focusing more on the "Ethnic" side of the > > > > story. > > > > > > > > Why > > ... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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