For Health Care, anything other than a single payer system will fail...it will be quite easy to say 'I told you so.' for so many people...sadly, the result will be more suffering.
On Sep 27, 1:26 am, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > orn, read your own links. While the NYT's puts up misleading > headlines the actual story shows that American's are overwhelming > leery of having government control over health care. It's one thing > to say yeah, I'll pay more taxes if we can eliminate waste, insure > every living person and reduce the deficit over the next 10 years but > it's entirely a different thing to actually believe it would happen > like this. 'Cause it wouldn't. > > There are always ways around taxes. The old 90% tax rate hurt > businesses and it hurt tax revenue. I promise I'm not even making > this up. The best way to increase tax revenue is to lower taxes. > While not true always; it is true most of the time. It's due to the > way people respond to changes in tax law and no 2 bit Congress is ever > going to keep up with the wiliness of clever money and tax managers. > > On the education issue I strongly suggest you at least scan this very > informative article from your favorite foundation. > > http://www.heritage.org/research/Education/bg2179.cfm > > There is no point in you and me arguing over what the American people > want. We'll just have to wait and see how things play out. We'll get > a health care bill I'm just hoping there are enough real positive > changes and not something chock full of porky stupidity. I still like > the Heath Foods model. > > dj > > On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 2:41 AM, ornamentalmind > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > “…Was that a typo? Wouldn't 'due to tax BURDENS' make more sense?...” > > – DJ > > > Nope…the top tax rate has dropped during my adult life time here in > > the US by over 60%. The complete lack of funding for things like > > books, non-leaking buildings, paint, teachers, and now federally > > mandated testing is not due to lack of interest. Well, perhaps for > > some it is. However, when the tax rate drops by such a large factor, > > there is no revenue to spend…analogies abound. Pick your own. > > > “…We've been throwing money at it for years, increasing year after > > year after year and we still get the same poor results. What's the > > definition of insanity again?...” – DJ > > > Insanity is reducing revenue to the level where we cannot fund the > > education of our youth. The blind and radically right lead tax revolt > > had condemned our country to generations of dumb and dumber along with > > a failed infrastructure. > > > “…I'm not sure where you get the idea that most people want universal > > health care. This is incorrect….” – DJ > > > Yes, it is incorrect, according to FAUX ‘News’. However, IF one looks > > beyond ideological corporate based TV propaganda, one can find the > > truth. > >http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/04/06/politics/politicalhotsheet/en... > >http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/health/policy/21poll.html > >http://health.usnews.com/articles/health/healthday/2009/02/11/poll-sh... > > > “…To you, this means universal. To many of the rest of us that notice > > the way business works and people react it means no such thing. > > Access and quality would inevitably go down for most middle class > > (those that deem it important to carry insurance without government > > mandate) people…” – DJ > > > To me…along with the rest of the industrialized population of the > > world. Don’t forget those who are not blinded by ideology but have > > been maintaining very successful universal health care worldwide for a > > long time now. Anyone can play the right/left misdirection here in the > > states, mostly big pharma and the insurance companies, along with > > their stock holders. Only some right wing wack jobs see this through > > ideological eyes rather than what currently exists in dozens of > > countries today world wide. > > > “… The AP and the NYT's may downplay it but there is a middle class > > revolt against big government and taxes going on in this country. > > Continuing to make fun of these people isn't going to help the tax > > lovers. …” – DJ > > > Sorry Don, time to put away the old way of thinking. We are in the > > middle of a depression, capitalism has shown again that it is a failed > > system, the ‘middle class’ is revolted by how the health care system > > here has degenerated to something that is run by insurance companies > > rather than health professionals. Continuing to downplay reality and > > play the divisive card will only lead to more and more civil unrest. > > We the people have had enough. This ‘we’ includes the vast majority of > > doctors and nurses. I do not make fun of tea baggers because their > > frustration is real, only the understanding of the cause is missing. > > More of us are now awake to the situation and things will change. > > > “…Some of us notice when the white house says how much something will > > cost and then the Congressional Budget Office comes back and says > > something substantially different.” – DJ > > > Yes, some have their eye on the bottom line…without full information. > > Others look at their and their neighbor’s experiences and rejections > > by insurance companies daily. These others look at the continued > > increase in suffering and bankruptcies that goes up each day. These > > others (yes, the majority) have actually begun to look beyond the > > corporate run TV propaganda and see what is happening all over the > > globe and they like what they see. The time for provincial > > protectionism is long over. We have suffered enough. > > > “… Let's look at other countries the size of the USA that have tried > > socialism. Size matters. People speak of true democracy but to me > > that would mean allowing us citizens to chose on our own where our > > money goes rather then hiring shysters to decide for us. In this day > > and age of high tech why can't we come up with a way to bypass > > congress and get our monies to the right people/ foundations/ > > charities/ organizations /institutions of our choice?...” - DJ > > > We have and find that socialized health care rather than health care > > by and for the corporations works..and is better for the common good…a > > guarantee of our constitution. Do not conflate socialism and democracy > > …that old dog won’t hunt any more. Do not raise the concern about > > choice…this too is not based in reality in the rest of the > > industrialized West. It is only here in the US where such large parts > > of the population have to chose between drugs and food, between health > > care and rent, between insurance and….well, just being able to live. > > Even those in the middle class now see that they can chose between > > insurance packages that have recently doubled in cost and nothing. . > > of the choice between going to an MD that is approved by their > > insurance company and not being able to afford their old family > > favorite doctor…of having managed health care or of not being able to > > decide on their own how they will have their health needs met. The > > choice red herring is just that. And, when you mention ‘shysters’, > > take a big long look at Wall Street, William Maguire (http:// > > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_W._McGuire )....and the rest. They do > > exist. When the term is used against lawyers, I just pray that you > > never have to fight to be accepted for healthcare by yourself…even > > with lawyers today, more and more people just will not receive > > treatment. This is well known and verifiable. > > > On Sep 26, 6:48 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Term limits. Highly recommended. I have seen how low the US is on > >> the health care list. I wonder what World Body came up with this > >> 'list' and what their goals are? Maybe to weaken the USA in any > >> fashion they can? I'm just sayin'. > > >> Regardless, since we can no longer afford to provide a good education > >> due to tax reduction, we can’t even help here by teaching the masses > >> to at least evaluate situations. . . let alone look for objectivity. -orn > > >> Was that a typo? Wouldn't 'due to tax BURDENS' make more sense? I > >> mean, the public school system sucks eggs for the most part orn. If I > >> didn't have to pay so much in taxes or if I got a sweet 15 grand tax > >> credit/voucher to send my son to the private school of my choice I > >> would do it in a heart beat. The way many of the public schools are > >> run it seems more like a prison or at least holding cell then an > >> institution of higher learning. We've been throwing money at it for > >> years, increasing year after year after year and we still get the same > >> poor results. What's the definition of insanity again? > > >> I'm not sure where you get the idea that most people want universal > >> health care. This is incorrect. What people want is more affordable > >> health care while maintaining a high standard of quality. To you, > >> this means universal. To many of the rest of us that notice the way > >> business works and people react it means no such thing. Access and > >> quality would inevitably go down for most middle class(those that deem > >> it important to carry insurance without government mandate) people. > >> The very same people that make up the majority of voters and pay the > >> most taxes will see their health care expenses rise most likely. The > >> AP and the NYT's may downplay it but there is a middle class revolt > >> against big government and taxes going on in this country. Continuing > >> to make fun of these people isn't going to help the tax lovers. Some > >> of us notice when the white house says how much something will cost > >> and then the Congressional Budget Office comes back and says something > >> substantially different. > > >> You write of learning from other countries. This is an excellent > >> point. Let's look at other countries the size of the USA that have > >> tried socialism. Size matters. People speak of true democracy but to > >> me that > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
