Observations on archy’s rant: “…I fear that the subjective model of truth (of the virtuous person) leaves us with cretins like Bush and Blair telling us they are virtuous and can make their peace with god…” – archy
I have heard that we can only lie to ourselves. I continue to work in the lab on this tenet. Also, actual virtue is known, not declared. “…Imagining half a book of argument, I end up believing our professional classes let us all down…” – archy I have learned more in one ‘class’ in the Academy than in all 12 universities attended. “…In short, the hard work is not done and we don't really try to find out the extent to which ideology (such as Orn refers to) and fictions form the protocols of belief. We live in an ideological mess and need to recognise both this and the dangers of a thrusting desire for a simpler situation (whatever tends us towards listening to the current Nazis). We have made truth too hard to establish, but have to avoid living under a new regime of truth…” – archy Maintaining and expanding on the theme of introspection, different states are noticed therein. This is directly applicable in the search for truth that often is found to be ‘too hard to establish’. Merely parroting memes is seen for what it is. This is observable in the lab of the interior when all apprehended is known to be in fact one…not just one of 3 views…interior, external and that of the transcendental. Taking any one notion, the serial sequence is testable. Case in point, the memes mentioned above. These can be blindly accepted as ‘truth’ and never examined. At the same time, they can be seen as part of how ‘we’ (society) are/is kept together with an apparent need to maintain and support contracts. Concurrently, one can blithely reject such social dogma as not ‘true’ and deify one’s own positions instead. Next the academician’s ‘truth’ by imposition of philosophies from charlatanism as archy often points to can be found within such utterances. When this level is known, the only way apparently left to know is through the distrust and eventual rejection and dismantlement of all such positions of belief. This resultant disillusionment and death of feigned knowing is only part of the story even though we all can recognize these states. At this point of equipoise, one recognizes how each stage of the series apparently arose and manifested and wishes for better and then accepts the current level of apprehension followed by a full recognition of having been and being totally asleep. What follows is beyond words, literally. And, although this schema in and of itself can appear to be found in any of the forgoing viewpoints, one’s own lab can ascertain the timeless scientific truth found herein ... or not. On Nov 30, 8:03 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > Lying is treated to a great deal of academic complexity. It would be > good if we had ways to know people are lying in Aristotle's classic > sense. In the end, I don't think we are much good at knowing when we > do it ourselves. I have tried, over a long period, to 'lack > credibility' to see if I could find out more about how people are > 'conned' by this and also to see if there is a way to teach that isn't > about persuading people to your own view but to create enquiring > minds. As this latter is one of the aims of education I accept, I am, > of course, breaching my own principle to some degree, but I do bring > this to the table for examination. > I agree with pretty much everything in this thread so far. I had a > morning like Lee's - the sacked dinner lady being almost a classic > example of how we are going wrong. Of course, we have a 'whistle- > blowers Act' which has turned out to be so much toilet paper. We have > a human rights Act and this is so perversely vague we only know what > it means after a bunch of dud lawyers and judges have had their fill > from the pork barrel. Now we have another toothless enquiry into the > Iraq invasion which is essentially telling us the previous, costly > ones were duds. Orn's long lists could be applied to almost any > politician. Chomsky indeed lights a few beacons. Relying on > subjective notions of truth is circular and bound to be because > individuals can lie and wider, collective issues are not addressed. > We know, like Rigsby, there is much wrong and worry about tinkering. > We know something of Alan's ontological liar, but also of Slip's > demagogue and demislave in politics (another thread). It may be that > art is the lie that tells us the truth, but 'art' is also a form of > commerce. The Great Masters, on taking an apprentice, would assure > the parents they could turn a camel into an artist. Much teaching, > even in universities is child minding. > I almost flip into the belief a bunch of alien lizards is running the > show. The metaphor isn't bad, but disappointingly ripping their faces > off does not provide empirical proof - though One can ponder the > 'satisfaction'! > I would guess the real truth in global warming lies somewhere in the > metaphor of Nero fiddling as Rome burns. The truth in history seems > to be that we cling more precariously to this rock than we will admit > and don't do as much as we could about the self-destruction built into > evolution. We could have knowledge built on an understanding of big > facts, yet we easily follow big myths to disgusting conclusion. Over > 20 years, my research methods classes have always reached a point > where they have to tell me that the truth is little other than a > suicide note at work (not in a manner too distant from Lee's dinner > lady). I have to agree. Away from class I may well have been at > academic-practitioner conferences, demonstrating with others just how > bent statistics are and how this is nothing new (a classic paper is > dated 1910). Statistics is a very old world meaning 'facts about the > State' and not related other than by 'magic' to the scientific, > arithmetic and mechanical stuff that tells us about atoms. We teach > about frequency distribution, ogives, means and so on, but really > teach the construction of spreadsheets and presentations - and > hopefully about accessing information and demonstrating that you can > find much said on almost any topic. Orn would be a great asset - pity > I diced his brain in an experiment in another thread! Chris would be > great on global warming, as would the putting forward of almost any of > our views to the scrutiny of how we hold them. > This latter point of putting forward views to scrutiny is where my > interests lie. The magic wand of statistical enquiry can help here, > but usually doesn't because it remains magic without proper > explanation and scrutiny itself. A classic dodge is repeated over and > over. This is about polling people who wouldn't really know what is > going on, in order to evade the real sample. We ask, for instance, a > representative sample of the country's population for their views on > police and police complaints. We ignore the real sample - here those > who actually have dealings with police and police complaints - and > don't ask people how they have come to their views. In the sample of > the whole population, people may have formed their views by watching > television police shows, both fictional and on the street. In short, > the hard work is not done and we don't really try to find out the > extent to which ideology (such as Orn refers to) and fictions form the > protocols of belief. > I tend to think there is 'truth in the mess' and that if we could get > to it we could change for the better. This simple statement evades > politics and this is why I think we need something that includes a > better politics. At this point, we stray a long way from the > pressures I know former students now working in ONS, businesses and > the public sector are under to produce convenient truth. They know > they are lying, but generally justify this in an acceptance of a dirty > world and the need to keep the wolf from the door. > > Imagining half a book of argument, I end up believing our professional > classes let us all down. We live in an ideological mess and need to > recognise both this and the dangers of a thrusting desire for a > simpler situation (whatever tends us towards listening to the current > Nazis). We have made truth too hard to establish, but have to avoid > living under a new regime of truth. We want (as an example) our cops > to be able to come down hard on scum and not get buried under red tape > and fear of complaints. Yet we also believe actions by officials and > businesses should be open to public scrutiny by anyone they let down. > But we don't want this scrutiny to drive our systems to inertia. I > believe we could use a technology of fair scrutiny to produce a > working simplexity. I hear no real public talk about this. I fear > that the subjective model of truth (of the virtuous person) leaves us > with cretins like Bush and Blair telling us they are virtuous and can > make their peace with god. > > On 30 Nov, 23:28, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I don't see how this is relevant to the topic. Bush made many > > rhetorical errors and is well know for it. I suppose someone less > > inclined to understanding what he meant by using context could claim > > he was lying. Almost all the quotes here I am unfamiliar with so I > > have no defense for them and wouldn't bother if I did. It's > > pointless. Regardless, Clinton has publicly admitted now that he was > > lying about the affair. I'll stretch the limits of his credibility > > and take him at his word on this one thing. 'Cause that's just the > > kinda guy I am. > > > -Don > > > On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 5:02 PM, ornamentalmind > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > As a service for those who stopped listening to US presidents after > > > Clinton, the following is presented for your illumination. > > > > 50. "I promise you I will listen to what has been said here, even > > > though I wasn't here." --at the President's Economic Forum in Waco, > > > Texas, Aug. 13, 2002 > > > > 49. "We spent a lot of time talking about Africa, as we should. Africa > > > is a nation that suffers from incredible disease." --Gothenburg, > > > Sweden, June 14, 2001 > > > > 48. "You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a > > > literacy test." -Townsend, Tenn., Feb. 21, 2001 > > > > 47. "I am here to make an announcement that this Thursday, ticket > > > counters and airplanes will fly out of Ronald Reagan Airport." -- > > > Washington, D.C., Oct. 3, 2001 > > > > 46. "Tribal sovereignty means that; it's sovereign. I mean, you're a > > > -- you've been given sovereignty, and you're viewed as a sovereign > > > entity. And therefore the relationship between the federal government > > > and tribes is one between sovereign entities." --Washington, D.C., > > > Aug. 6, 2004 > > > > 45. "I couldn't imagine somebody like Osama bin Laden understanding > > > the joy of Hanukkah." --at a White House menorah lighting ceremony, > > > Washington, D.C., Dec. 10, 2001 > > > > 44. "You know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq > > > to the war on terror." --interview with CBS News' Katie Couric, Sept. > > > 6, 2006 > > > > 43. "The same folks that are bombing innocent people in Iraq were the > > > ones who attacked us in America on September the 11th." --Washington, > > > D.C., July 12, 2007 > > > > 42. "I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not > > > need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about > > > being president." --as quoted in Bob Woodward's Bush at War > > > > 41. "Oh, no, we're not going to have any casualties." --discussing the > > > Iraq war with Christian Coalition founder Pat Robertson in 2003, as > > > quoted by Robertson > > > > 40. 3. "I think I was unprepared for war." –on the biggest regret of > > > his presidency, ABC News interview, Dec. 1, 2008 > > > > 39. "I will not withdraw, even if Laura and Barney are the only ones > > > supporting me." --talking to key Republicans about Iraq, as quoted by > > > Bob Woodward > > > > 38. "I hear there's rumors on the Internets that we're going to have a > > > draft." --presidential debate, St. Louis, Mo., Oct. 8, 2004 > > > > 37. "I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." -- > > > Greater Nashua, N.H., Chamber of Commerce, Jan. 27, 2000 > > > > 36. "Do you have blacks, too?" --to Brazilian President Fernando > > > Cardoso, Washington, D.C., Nov. 8, 2001 > > > > 35. "This foreign policy stuff is a little frustrating." --as quoted > > > by the New York Daily News, April 23, 2002 > > > > 34. "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees." --on > > > "Good Morning America," Sept. 1, 2005, six days after repeated > > > warnings from experts about the scope of damage expected from > > > Hurricane Katrina > > > > 33. "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." -- > > > Saginaw, Mich., Sept. 29, 2000 > > > > 32. "I would say the best moment of all was when I caught a 7.5 pound > > > largemouth bass in my lake." --on his best moment in office, interview > > > with the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag, May 7, 2006 > > > > 31. "They misunderestimated me." --Bentonville, Ark., Nov. 6, 2000 > > > > 30. "For every fatal shooting, there were roughly three non-fatal > > > shootings. And, folks, this is unacceptable in America. It's just > > > unacceptable. And we're going to do something about it." -- > > > Philadelphia, Penn., May 14, 2001 > > > > 29. "This is an impressive crowd -- the haves and the have mores. Some > > > people call you the elite -- I call you my base." --at the 2000 Al > > > Smith dinner > > > > 28. "Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take dream." > > > --LaCrosse, Wis., Oct. 18, 2000 > > > > 27. "I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I > > > believe and what I believe -- I believe what I believe is right." -- > > > Rome, Italy, July 22, 2001 > > > > 26. "See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and > > > over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the > > > propaganda." --Greece, N.Y., May 24, 2005 > > > > 25. "People say, how can I help on this war against terror? How can I > > > fight evil? You can do so by mentoring a child; by going into a shut- > > > in's house and say I love you." --Washington, D.C., Sept. 19, 2002 > > > > 24. "I wish you'd have given me this written question ahead of time so > > > I could plan for it...I'm sure something will pop into my head here in > > > the midst of this press conference, with all the pressure of trying to > > > come up with answer, but it hadn't yet...I don't want to sound like I > > > have made no mistakes. I'm confident I have. I just haven't -- you > > > just put me under the spot here, and maybe I'm not as quick on my feet > > > as I should be in coming up with one." --after being asked to name the > > > biggest mistake he had made, Washington, D.C., April 3, 2004 > > > > 23. "You forgot Poland." --to Sen. John Kerry during the first > > > presidential debate, after Kerry failed to mention Poland's > > > contributions to the Iraq war coalition, Miami, Fla., Sept. 30, 2004 > > > > 22. "Goodbye from the world's biggest polluter." --in parting words to > > > world leaders at his final G-8 Summit, punching the air and grinning > > > widely as those present looked on in shock, Rusutsu, Japan, July 10, > > > 2008 > > > > 21. "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently > > > sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." --State of the > > > Union Address, Jan. 28, 2003, making a claim that administration > > > officials knew at the time to be false > > > > 20. "The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is > > > our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him." -- > > > Washington, D.C., Sept. 13, 2001 > > > > 19. "I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't > > > care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." --Washington, > > > D.C., March 13, 2002 > > > > 18. "So what?" –President Bush, responding to a an ABC News > > > correspondent who pointed out that Al Qaeda wasn't a threat in Iraq > > > until after the U.S. invaded, Dec. 14, 2008 > > > > 17. "Can we win? I don't think you can win it." --after being asked > > > whether the war on terror was winnable, "Today" show interview, Aug. > > > 30, 2004 > > > > 16. "I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're > > > really talking about peace." --Washington, D.C. June 18, 2002 > > > > 15. "I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my > > > job." --to a group of Amish he met with privately, July 9, 2004 > > > > 14. "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of > > > Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed." --speaking > > > underneath a "Mission Accomplished" banner aboard the USS Abraham > > > Lincoln, May 1, 2003 > > > > 13. "We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological > > > laboratories ... And we'll find more weapons as time goes on. But for > > > those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or > > > banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." --Washington, D.C., May > > > 30, 2003 > > > > 12. "Those weapons of mass destruction have got to be somewhere!" -- > > > joking about his administration's failure to find WMDs in Iraq as he > > > narrated a comic slideshow during the Radio & TV Correspondents' > > > Association dinner, Washington, D.C., March 24, 2004 > > > > 11. "I'll be long gone before some smart person ever figures out what > > > happened inside this Oval Office." --Washington, D.C., May 12, 2008 > > > 10. "Rarely is the questioned asked: Is our children learning?" -- > > > Florence, South Carolina, Jan. 11, 2000 > > > > 9. "As yesterday's positive report card shows, childrens do learn when > > > standards are high and results are measured." --on the No Child Left > > > Behind Act, Washington, D.C., Sept. 26, 2007 > > > > 8. "If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just > > > so long as I'm the dictator." --Washington, D.C., Dec. 19, 2000 > > > > 7. "I'm the decider, and I decide what is best. And what's best is for > > > Don Rumsfeld to remain as the Secretary of Defense." --Washington, > > > D.C. April 18, 2006 > > > > 6. "There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, > > > probably in Tennessee -- that says, fool me once, shame on --shame on > > > you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again." --Nashville, Tenn., Sept. > > > 17, 2002 > > > > 5. "Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB- > > > GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this > > > country." --Poplar Bluff, Mo., Sept. 6, 2004 > > > > 4. "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They > > > never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, > > > and neither do we." --Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004 > > > > 3. "You work three jobs? ... Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that > > > is fantastic that you're doing that." --to a divorced mother of three, > > > Omaha, Nebraska, Feb. 4, 2005 > > > > 2. "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job." --to FEMA director Michael > > > Brown, who resigned 10 days later amid criticism over his handling of > > > the Hurricane Katrina debacle, Mobile, Ala., Sept. 2, 2005 > > > > 1. "My > > > ... > > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.
