Well Fran, the story you present about Ben clearly reveals the underlying complexities of the issue. But first let's look at Rigsy's observation, that is, the inability for the average person to cope with the type of care these people need. For you it was all part of training within a specialized field and adding your personal background would indeed compliment the training with a compassionate tone. However that is not the norm for exogenic cases where suddenly burdened family and spouses relegate the unpleasant task to an outside agency. Even under the best circumstances with aging relatives one must draw the line which most often results in confinement to a nursing facility. I guess my post addressed an issue outside of the complexities and one that is primarily concerned with pre-birth diagnosis possibly within the 2nd or 3rd trimester or even post birth complications or congenital deformities. These are the times that practical decisions should be made based on the reality of the newborn's life or lack of a good one. Not a decision based on emotional, societal or theistic influence. Aside from all that Ben may exhibit all these nuances of joy but that may camouflage internal conflict and a desire to entertain assisted suicide in order to put an end to his internal misery. We must look at the fact that people in his condition are somewhat at the mercy of others and do not see or have any other recourse. All they can do is exist within the environment that they have found themselves in. If he was presented with the option and had the ability to respond do you think he would opt to stay the way he is, where he is?
On Feb 27, 10:12 am, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > I've worked with such people for years, Slip. Most of those I help to > care for are in such states for exogenic reasons, a few have been born > that way. I no longer consider myself, or anyone else, qualified to > judge. > > Let me give you a short picture of someone I will call here Ben. > Fifteen years ago, Ben was a young student with everything going for > him; nice family, good grades, girlfriend, etc. Then, driving home one > day, he had a high-speed argument with a tree, which the tree won. > > Ben's girlfriend is long gone. He sits in a wheelchair today, his body > spastically twisted. He drools and shits himself. He can eat, though > it is a messy procedure, fluids have to be given through a feeding > tube, as he can neither close his mouth nor tilt his head back. He has > frequent epileptic seizures. > > Ben watches the world with bright, questioning eyes. We don't know how > much he understands because he cannot speak, only cry and hoot. He is > friendly and likes to be in company. > > Ben has a marvellous sense of humour. He loves hearing scatological > language and will laugh when somebody farts. He also has a highly- > developed schadenfreude and finds it hilarious if someone trips up, > for example. He's a real fan of slapstick, our Ben. > > But beyond this is a real, deep, genuine sense of fun. I have often > sat in a group with him and he has had us all, inside ten minutes, > dissolving in tears of helpless laughter. He loves this sharing of > laughter and is an expert at seeking eye-contact with those trying to > control their giggles, and setting them off again. > > When Ben is not in pain, or uncomfortable for some reason, he is the > happiest person I know. I don't see where I have the right to judge > the quality of his happiness as being somehow inferior to that of > others who have not suffered the cognitive damage he has. More, I > sometimes wish that I too could have something of his gift of pure joy > and fun. I got to know Ben as his carer, today I'm proud to call him > my friend. > > Francis > > On 27 Feb., 15:58, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I've wondered many times about another aspect of those lives unable to > > function in a way that we call normalcy. Unlike your blind mate there > > are those confined to wheels and beds with limited cognition and zero > > mobility independent of another. Those that if left unattended would > > simply dissipate into thin air. The other aspect is whether or not we > > are actually imposing a disservice upon those individuals by providing > > a means by which they can just visually experience the world with some > > slight tendency I would assume towards emotional responses. Would > > such births, upon awareness of the impending deformity prior to > > delivery, be better left to not occur so that the person/being/soul/ > > (according to a belief I guess) can have a chance to try again, to > > have another opportunity to be whole with full life living > > capabilities? Perhaps via a parent that was not having pregnancy > > issues or drug addition. I've seen many children laying in > > wheelchairs drooling, unable to hold their heads up or speak and > > totally dependent as a burden on the parent or caregiver like a dog > > without any legs. Where is the quality of life and how is that > > determined, is it simply PC for the right to life? It's not about > > genocide against those deemed unholy or for overly shaded skin tones. > > Of course the percentage of these individuals globally is so small I > > wouldn't imagine that it would make any significant or noticeable > > difference in any given society but then again my view isn't > > necessarily from that of the society but from the individual in the > > quagmire of disability. While there are those who think they are > > bringing some joy into these lives by providing them the special needs > > I wonder if at the same time if the one having the need is wondering > > why it was allowed to happen, why they had been allowed to be trapped > > in such a hopeless situation. Is this understandable or unreasonable? > > > On Feb 27, 8:06 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > A guy called Rivers started something off when he looked at visual > > > processing amongst Papa New Guinea tribes, discovering their > > > discernment was equal to ours. In the weird way connections are made, > > > he believed anthropology applied to our own societies, which were much > > > less rational than supposed. Whilst I don't see a slippery slope to > > > 'anything goes' in admitting our cultures play a massive role in what > > > we come to count as knowledge or what it is to try to be rational, it > > > does seem to me that we consistently fail to try to remember what > > > human beings are made to forget. There is a general pretence at > > > 'disinterestedness' in our public arguments which acts to suppress > > > interests all round. Whilst we seem to have excluded Slip's 'eugenic > > > cull', there is little doubt we effectively exclude (toss out?) many > > > with disability. I doubt 'faith science' could exist if we did not. > > > I've been interested for a long time in why people adopt racist, > > > religious and other defensive strategies so easily when it seems easy > > > enough to dismiss the stuff in rational argument, and one 'answer' > > > that lurks in it all is that may people do not feel invited to > > > rational discussion at all, but to a situation in which they are > > > unarmed, unrepresented and simply subject to patronisation. For them, > > > it is thus rational to band together. Science and actual rationality > > > suppose a commitment to argument that is not ideological and in which > > > only Reason has force. Yet what equips a human being in Reason? > > > Who gets the 'faith dollars' Slip alludes to? Why should any human > > > not be able to play as full a part in society as they can without > > > telethon urging? I need medical help to survive now and would gladly > > > give up life for others who have not yet had as much of it as me, > > > were this really a matter of resource priority. Altruism is by no > > > means all here - I hurt - and weirdly because much of this is about > > > despair about the human condition, this drives me on, partly wondering > > > whether the madness is mine or society's. 'Deformity' may be what > > > eventually makes something 'human' or beyond it purposeful - perhaps > > > the mutation that changes how we can be. What is the deformity of > > > current society? > > > I'm not arguing against Slip here - I think his point is merely one of > > > many places to start and already share many of his views. My best > > > mate is now teaching, though blind. We met when his Guide Dog > > > blundered into my office in around 1994. He could have done my job > > > then, with modest support. It was really only two years ago that he > > > got established, after around eight years of unnecessary 'education' > > > that had to be fought for tooth and nail. He was a better man then > > > than most of my colleagues. There are many others. The problems are > > > very deep. Young kids are growing up round here with almost no real > > > attention paid to what they need. One of the things that makes both > > > my mate and I weep is the 'social model of disability' which seeks to > > > do away with impairment and recognise society causes much disability. > > > It's the very kind of farcical response that sounds good and yet > > > instantly fails because it's too big to be anything other than glib. > > > > Faith in science is a matter of epistemic risk analysis. I can follow > > > the arguments in reason. In religion, I'm told I must respect the > > > views of others, not make judgements in reason. Strangely, the > > > religious system fails to respect the worship of blue, cross-eyed > > > rabbits, but insists on respect for much weirder-based 'faith'. And > > > what is this 'faith'? Do those professing it really have it? It > > > generally seems not, if it's about love and goodwill to all, as they > > > say it is. > > > > There are many practical uses of Slip's thought experiment. One can > > > obviously raise Godwin's Law, but the Nazis were just one example of a > > > wider horror. Human resource management leads us to deselect most as > > > disabled in terms of producing soccer teams and the rest (and how > > > 'disabled' are many of these obsessives?) and the Athenian Democracy > > > was prepared to practise this to genocidal extreme. Whole rafts of > > > people are excluded from work (really the dignity of income) under > > > 'capitalism' - soon robots will be able to do most of it. What of the > > > 'unnecessary rest'? Many believe they are doing necessary work, yet > > > count around you, think of the cops and social workers who should be > > > stopping vile abuses but don't. Ask who is doing what, for what > > > purpose, what there is once one knows to have faith in? > > > > Slip is not, in my experience, some vile example of a Muslim sect > > > member, become so holy all others must die because they are not so > > > pure. Yet the thought experiment leads to much the same; and yet in > > > the process of reviewing it, much that we are doing wrong can emerge. > > > Having paid my dues, I see many others taking my contribution away > > > without having made any, yet how much of what I have was really > > > laboured for by Indonesians (etc.) slaving away on tuna boats, how > > > much of the cheap meat in the US was produced via subsidies making > > > beef cheaper than broccoli and so on, leading immigrant labour to > > > subsist on burgers - blah, blah. Good way in Slip; do you have any > > > answers? > > > > On 27 Feb, 02:57, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Is the cure for cancer just faith in science? I've been watching the > > > > Jerry Lewis telethon for years and wonder if that is just faith in > > > > science. Millions and millions of dollars invested in faith? Did > > > > anyone consider that we should just take that money and invest it in > > > > whole beings instead of investing it into "faith science"? Birds toss > > > > out those > > ... > > read more » -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.
