I don't consider motivation as a precursor but many do. On Apr 23, 10:27 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > “…Surely we can agree on something!” – rigsey > > Perhaps we can agree that it is impossible to know someone else’s > motivation? > > On Apr 23, 5:21 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Yes, sometimes- but the larger point may be how power collects into > > pockets and has less to do with historical models than basic human > > drives and opportunism. For instance, one could parallel the federal > > government with the ancien regimes and see the new aristrocracy/ > > courtiers as the bureaucrats, politicians and lawyers. A new > > vocabulary doesn't change basic motives. The new clergy might be the > > opinionated celebrities, shrinks and snake-oil wizards! :-) Surely we > > can agree on something! > > > On Apr 22, 11:48 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > "...generally past civilizations depended on birthline, rank and > > > class to design their social privileges and duties although merit > > > sometimes played a part of an individual's/group's ability to rise." - > > > rigsey > > > > So, in fact, it is a mixed bag then, right? > > > > On Apr 22, 7:10 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Well, they certainly did not promise liberty, etc. or the "American > > > > Dream". Think of how many centuries relied on slave labor to build > > > > those glorious temples, etc. and the best way to acquire slaves was > > > > through war and conquest. And modern wars shifted to raw materials and > > > > trade routes while the industrial-chemical-technological revolution > > > > ushered in a new type of slave- paycheck or no. And though there were > > > > women of privilege such as the chief wife or the mother of a ruler, > > > > women as a rule were treated poorly plus were vulnerable physically in > > > > childbirth and body strength. Some of our current social problems > > > > might be traced to militant feminism and the shifting roles of men and > > > > women in our society and, of course, once women can determine how to > > > > control pregnancies, it's a brand new ballgame.To answer your > > > > question, generally past civilizations depended on birthline, rank and > > > > class to design their social privileges and duties although merit > > > > sometimes played a part of an individual's/group's ability to rise. > > > > > On Apr 20, 10:44 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > “Ancient civilizations did not promise individual rights and > > > > > freedoms…” – rigsey > > > > > > Are you saying that this is true for *all* civilizations? > > > > > > On Apr 20, 6:31 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Ancient civilizations did not promise individual rights and freedoms > > > > > > but their power/control presented a certitude and order which could > > > > > > be > > > > > > do-able and pleasant depending on class and caste. The castoffs are > > > > > > still miserable in modern society- democracy or not. It is > > > > > > unrealistic > > > > > > expectations that is the hard pill to swallow in our time or as > > > > > > someone commented in a review of Evelyn Waugh- it is "pointless to > > > > > > expect justice on earth, the ultimate moral reckoning comes only > > > > > > after > > > > > > death" by Slobone- this notion attached to Catholicism, by the way. > > > > > > > On Apr 5, 8:29 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > “…which makes us enemies of each other The state is now bigger > > > > > > > than us > > > > > > > mortal beings…” – PSK > > > > > > > > Yet again, I just don’t see it. How is ‘the state’ bigger today > > > > > > > than > > > > > > > in, say, the days of Rome?...of ancient Egypt? And, I’m not so > > > > > > > sure it > > > > > > > has to do with size either. I’m guessing the issue is perceived > > > > > > > power. . . which, again, I just don’t see as being any more or > > > > > > > less > > > > > > > than has been reported in the past > > > > > > > > On Apr 5, 6:56 am, "pol.science kid" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > In the last post an evolved Mind was being discussed…here’s > > > > > > > > what I > > > > > > > > think…(it lacks structure...and very naive but please be > > > > > > > > patient ...) > > > > > > > > The Mind continues to evolve….It is a manifestation of the much > > > > > > > > larger > > > > > > > > Process...The process from which we source the creation of > > > > > > > > intelligent > > > > > > > > life. When one sees oneself in isolation from the Process arise > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > existential tendencies... An evolved mind I suppose is one with > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > open eye...the Minds eye... (One of the reasons I love this > > > > > > > > group is > > > > > > > > the great name)…to put it simply there is the higher self and > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > lower self inside everyone...we are constantly pulled down by > > > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > visceral and basic tendencies (lower self)...and not everyone > > > > > > > > cares to > > > > > > > > realize their higher self..I guess that’s why great thinkers of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > past incorporated their ideas into simple doctrines to follow > > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > they certainly had an idea of an evolved and enlightened > > > > > > > > society but > > > > > > > > also knew that not every person is a philosopher so it was > > > > > > > > propagated > > > > > > > > as religion a lifestyle which would earn you great spiritual > > > > > > > > dividends… > > > > > > > > of course over time it got corrupted as a means of monopolizing > > > > > > > > power > > > > > > > > over society by a learned few..That is one of the main problems > > > > > > > > of our > > > > > > > > society today…we tend to forget the basic idea behind > > > > > > > > everything…and > > > > > > > > let institutions get bigger than us…what began as an > > > > > > > > explanation for > > > > > > > > unexplained phenomena (science being not so developed then) and > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > attempt to enforce some moral code, has become bigger than > > > > > > > > us…rides > > > > > > > > over us and is the plague of our times…a extra and outdated > > > > > > > > baggage > > > > > > > > from the past…it has outgrown its relevance today…similarly the > > > > > > > > STATE… > > > > > > > > which began as an attempt to organize social and political > > > > > > > > life…from > > > > > > > > chiefdoms to countries it has transformed…and with it has grown > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > evil of patriotism(not to mention the violence to determine > > > > > > > > what is > > > > > > > > the best way to organize political life)…which makes us enemies > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > each other The state is now bigger than us mortal > > > > > > > > beings…Identities… > > > > > > > > ethnicity…language…caste etc… we seem to need them to validate > > > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > existence…the burning question of Who am I…I think I went a > > > > > > > > little off > > > > > > > > the mark… what I want to say is that…The Mind ..Born out of flux > > > > > > > > desperately seeks to find permanence(so its attachment to > > > > > > > > symbols)…as > > > > > > > > the mind is the smaller functioning unit of the bigger Whole…it > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > tries to establish itself while contributing to the > > > > > > > > ‘process’…thus > > > > > > > > emerges our ego and sense of ‘self’…the Society is a collective > > > > > > > > body > > > > > > > > of the individual units…also seeks the same permanence…and so it > > > > > > > > creates institutions and preserves them…Change always comes In > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > kind of revolution(similarly In an enlightened individual…he > > > > > > > > forms his > > > > > > > > own individual ideas against what he has been brought up > > > > > > > > believing )…a > > > > > > > > mutilation from the past…but occur it must…because permanency > > > > > > > > is not > > > > > > > > the natural state of things… > > > > > > > > There are I think certain universal truths which must be and are > > > > > > > > arrived at…these are the key points of our evolution…they are > > > > > > > > arrived > > > > > > > > at through the smaller individual units…taking the form of > > > > > > > > Einstein or > > > > > > > > whatever;-)…like Molly mentioned communication is a very imp. > > > > > > > > Factor > > > > > > > > for growth…the Mind does not grow in isolation…the society is > > > > > > > > really a > > > > > > > > two way street I think…while the individual unit grows and > > > > > > > > evolves in > > > > > > > > relation to it…it also acts as an oppressor of the individual… > > > > > > > > Don’t > > > > > > > > worry Ash I think the symbols will evolve on their own…. > > > > > > > > What say my fellows?- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > > > Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. > > > > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > > [email protected]. > > > > > > For more options, visit this group > > > > > > athttp://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.-Hidequotedtext- > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > > Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > [email protected]. > > > > > For more options, visit this group > > > > > athttp://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.-Hidequotedtext- > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > [email protected]. > > > > For more options, visit this group > > > > athttp://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.-Hidequotedtext - 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