Room for another on foolhill? Looking out at the 96% dark with eyes that only see some of the 4% light doesn't sound very promising to me even from the vantage point of a hill. My tendency is to think of us as primitives stuck in a culture no longer relevant to modern aspirations that come with what limited education we get. Self-enlightenment has been around since time immemorial. I suspect this and most education is about control, and that money and other devices to keep us in socially constructed order lead us to seek introspective freedom zones, or an island for art.
Yes Gabby - postmodernism forever is likely very depressing. In the jargon it was always promodo, coming before more solid 'times' of modernism. Only little secrets need to be hidden as incredulity hides the really big ones in the open. Surely we understand we can all be artists ripping off punters safe in the knowledge they have a Ponzi system in which to inflate our paintings and sculptures into greater profit for them. No one needs to grow food now we are all virtual and the bankers feed us on electronic money. There is no self I know that doesn't know reality is the only place to get a decent meal. I'm just inclined more to a reboot of society than self. A world after the blockchain, positive money and embodiment of professional work will be very different, lacking today's splendid motivation by poverty, insecurity and voyeuristic libidinalism. Laws for our own growth might start with an evaluation of what the planet can support and what we might enjoy once we got that right. On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 9:20:55 PM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote: > > There are many pathways to enlightenment. Higher education is one of them. > Unfortunately it can also be a trap where the mind only see a closed view > of reality. > > Was watching a science program dealing with matter in the universe. They > were talking a about matter, dark matter, and dark energy . I must be a > foolnon a hill to me that is common knowledge. What is even sadder is I > see a trap that encases them unable to escape beyond their religious > convictions of science. > Beliefs religion or science both have there dogma and doctrine . > Theologians all trapped! say the fool on the hill. > > Do not murder, rape, enslave or harm others > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gabby <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 9:08 PM > Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: the law of our own growth > > Yes, finding patterns and roadblocks and supporting new thinking is the > very matter the present day business model of coaching is centered around. > And it's absolutely correct that you cannot get into your flow, if you as a > client have to also ponder the question of how others manage to grow. And > yet you'd expect the coach to have pondered this question, wouldn't you? > > The figures are still very depressing. Enlightenment depends roughly 80% > on personal relationship and 20% on quirky methodology. A quiet, > undisturbed mind for all forever seems a long, dark way ahead unless you > and Facil started to get your acts together. :) > > > Am Dienstag, 9. Dezember 2014 13:17:07 UTC+1 schrieb Molly: >> >> Witnessing what thoughts and emotional constructs come to mind moment to >> moment, finding the patterns and roadblocks we ourselves construct for >> ourselves in any given moment is the self examination worth more than >> comparison to others. Even this finally becomes unnecessary when the mind >> is left quiet more than not, and thoughts and feelings come and go more as >> a mechanism than construct or compulsion. We can't get there until we turn >> off the constant churning of mind that comes from constantly thinking about >> how others "manage to grow" (or not) >> >> On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 5:41:56 AM UTC-5, archytas wrote: >>> >>> I get all that Molly, including the roadblocks. Clarity is suspiciously >>> Cartesian to me of course. Detective investigations are full of roadblocks >>> - you kind of need to know where they are to work round them. Even more so >>> in 'resistance fighter' mode. I thought what you said on deep green the >>> other day really penetrated key issues before the 'boys' club' took over - >>> though part of the absurdity is we know what to do and are blocked because >>> it means confrontation with the Establishment. We could all just read >>> Naomi Klein's 'This Changes Everything' and agree with it - it's the best >>> compendium of what's going wrong (along with 'Shock Doctrine') I can think >>> of. Yet I was involved in teaching the material in the mid-80's and 20 >>> years on things have only got worse. Klein is a leader in this niche >>> market. >>> >>> I would prefer to 'train' our people by sending them for a few months >>> to stay with you or Tony - anywhere rather than business schools or what >>> universities have become in the wider sense. Knocking out a few trinkets >>> under Allan's recycling rules would be better too, or walking a hundred >>> yards of history with Andrew, flying over the US with Don noticing there is >>> still space to hope and grow and being told 'that's your interpretation' by >>> Gabby. We have lost touch with what education is. >>> >>> The self is a very old concept and subject to as much 'does it exist' >>> criticism as god. Neither fiction is rendered useless by any of this. Yet >>> like many (perhaps all) cultural concepts they may become Idols - we worry >>> about stuff like big bang on the same grounds, or Marxism's historicist >>> assumptions. Much of what we need to do is as obvious as lead carbonate >>> turning yellow when heated in a test tube in Earth standard laboratory >>> conditions, or enzymes working better in supercritical carbon dioxide than >>> they do in water - though what is going on is not obvious without relevant >>> theory, except stuff like the yellowing to those with sight. >>> >>> What can we look at directly? Dark matter doesn't seem a good candidate >>> - and the self is 'dark'. The deep questions are not geodesic, but rather >>> concern whether we ever escape the social-biological constructed to any >>> radical subjectivism. Black (or grey) holes are probably real, but we >>> don't see them directly but rather through elaborate theory. Molly has >>> some elaborate paradigms (I tend to like them). We have known for >>> millennia one can make equally compelling and different arguments about >>> essentially the same stuff in different generic frames. One technique, >>> proposed 2500 years back, is to take in all the argument in a kind of >>> suspended belief system - leading, of course, to questions on just what >>> such a suspended system could be. >>> >>> From one frame of reference (Max has just caught me in his - giving me >>> that 'walk overdue eye' - I shall accommodate from my 'it's cold and wet >>> out there' perspective, giving up to his need soon), the idea of a >>> discoverable, directive.self-judgemental self is the fascist leadership >>> claim. Moll can't really be accused of this - though I would if she was a >>> reincarnation of Ayn Rand. She is always encouraging others to find >>> theirs, not follow hers. I'm not into leaders of any kind or the authority >>> of revealed introspection or laws of personal gr.owth or clarity. For all >>> my 'rebellion', what's obvious to me is we can't get on with what needs to >>> be done and should be done. >>> >>> Imagine Tony and I in a long, white-bright room. We have two art >>> suckers with us. At the end of the room is his latest Vantablack on black >>> canvas. Tony is doing his Bohemian artist thing and I'm explaining the >>> deep significance of the texture of the piece that cannot be seen >>> (Vantablack is so black you can't see its texture). I allow the art >>> suckers to feel the texture after donning disposable gloves, explaining the >>> piece is so valuable it will be irreparably damaged by human contamination. >>> They leave a large cheque, after a little protest from me that cash would >>> be better, so Tony could nip out and get a large cache of cocaine >>> inspiration (they take the hint he will soon be dead making his work more >>> valuable). Tony tosses the disposed gloves into a vat of clear expoxy and >>> names this new work 'Forensic Evidence of a Black Deal'. What 'self' is >>> revealed here? We wander off to get wasted or have other fun, passing a >>> room with Molly teaching Sporal Dynamics (Irosh descent form) to a large >>> throng. She gets a cheque too. We leave a note inviting her to lunch. >>> >>> Elsewhere in the world there is a shortage of toilets. Now that's >>> pretty clear._ >>> >>> On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 12:45:27 AM UTC, Molly wrote: >>>> >>>> You have such a wonderful way of obscuring a questions with a million >>>> details, while all true, all roadblocks to clarity, throwing up problem >>>> after problem instead of looking directly at self. What is true, is that >>>> everything you examine, Nei,l is a clear and true aspect of self, but like >>>> a geodesic form, cannot get to the center because it has multiple points. >>>> The form is important, and each point of the form. But the question points >>>> to a reduction to oneness and you can't seem to get there. >>>> >>>> All of our assessments of others are judgments. My image of you is >>>> different than Gabby's and different than Allan's although we all love >>>> you. >>>> Why do we measure our own self image by our image of others (formed on >>>> judgment)? Why can't we form our own self image on our relationship with >>>> self instead of our relationship with other? I suspect not all of us are >>>> even aware of the definition or dimension of that relationship with self. >>>> I >>>> also suspect this is the crux of Rilke's insight. >>>> >>>> On Monday, December 8, 2014 4:55:15 PM UTC-5, archytas wrote: >>>>> >>>>> There are sunk costs in the old bildung ways and it could be there are >>>>> no laws of growth as there are no laws in history (Popper's account). >>>>> Poetry circles are as unlikely to cure domestic violence as the world at >>>>> war. The ideas have to be alive somehow though. So what do YOU really >>>>> think Molly - I don't have you as a poetic guru on past evidence. >>>>> >>>>> On Monday, December 8, 2014 6:33:09 PM UTC, archytas wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Much has been said and little done on how they come to make the soul >>>>>>> governable and produce the docile body. Are we listening to depth or >>>>>>> autism in Rilke? Perhaps just Leibniz with flowers, the monads and >>>>>>> incommensurability reconstituted? His mother lost a daughter and used >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> dress him as a girl. The clash between social and self evaluation is >>>>>>> clearly like nature-nurture and not a case of taking sides. Try to >>>>>>> track >>>>>>> the origins as outside in and inside out and you are unlikely to be >>>>>>> able to >>>>>>> stop. The best societies produce the best individuals and the best >>>>>>> individuals the best societies. Science is based on demonstration to >>>>>>> others - yet which others, given most people can't learn the >>>>>>> language-games >>>>>>> needed to know what most such demonstrations are about. Replete with >>>>>>> phlogiston theory one can rationalise for infinite time breathing on >>>>>>> very >>>>>>> ignorant oxygen. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Important to find out how we come to think how others work Molly. I >>>>>> tend to look and smell people wearing make-up and perfume as whale >>>>>> killers >>>>>> and beagle torturers, but am yet to have any impact on the cosmetics >>>>>> industry. The self is probably hidden far more 'securely' than the face >>>>>> under pancake crust. Most women are far more interested in a projected >>>>>> self >>>>>> that 'interests' and satisfies the demands and opinion of people other >>>>>> than >>>>>> me. In a way one can hardly use shampoo without hearing the animal >>>>>> screams. Just how much good honest looking is there anywhere - and >>>>>> rather >>>>>> than being at the heart of the matter, is Rilkeism already caught up in >>>>>> 'existing advertising' that makes thinking-pretending poetry has depth >>>>>> that >>>>>> makes the right impression on others in games of presenting the self in >>>>>> everyday life? Make up for the New Ager? Wittgenstein was apt to >>>>>> mention >>>>>> language like climbing a ladder in the clouds - such an apparatus would >>>>>> fall from the sky while we were looking for roots and origin. Though, >>>>>> on >>>>>> the science side, I can only predict terminal velocity in such situations >>>>>> >>>>>> No wheelchairs in our newsrooms seems an important issue on >>>>>> presentation of self - then one sees there is no news in them either! >>>>>> Rilke and John Wayne dodged respective drafts. Take a good look at >>>>>> ourselves and what would we find? Perhaps that there is no decent >>>>>> society >>>>>> to return to, that one can live in true to decency ... tough one old >>>>>> friend. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Monday, December 8, 2014 12:25:42 PM UTC, Molly wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sometimes I think we can only see ourselves in how we stack up >>>>>>> against our judgment of others, an outside in perspective, and maybe, >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> the heart of what Rilke mentions here. I wonder if the fear of taking a >>>>>>> good honest look at oneself is a typically western cultural construct, >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> simply a human journey roadblock. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sunday, December 7, 2014 10:12:29 PM UTC-5, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The New Agers were all over Rilke and my Persian poet like a rash >>>>>>>> in the past - though the latter may have written in Greek patois. >>>>>>>> Tgat >>>>>>>> egat sig probably appeared in his text, meaning the sound made after >>>>>>>> watching German opera. René Karl Wilhelm Johann Josef Maria Rilke - >>>>>>>> Rumi >>>>>>>> had a long name too and was into the simultaneous destruction and >>>>>>>> recreation of the soul. >>>>>>>> A bit of poetry is good for people who can't do science. At least >>>>>>>> Rumi might offer Whirling Dervishes rather than interminable opera >>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>> heroes buried in acorns for us to recover from poetry reading. I like >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> lot of Sufi ideas. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I actually have a lot in common with RP's 'conservatism'. "Love >>>>>>>> consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each >>>>>>>> other" (Rilke from Brainyquote). These days safe sex has lost the >>>>>>>> gentle >>>>>>>> touch of romance and loyalty (maybe autism) and become disease >>>>>>>> prevention. >>>>>>>> Yet are we to look down on the promiscuous? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sunday, December 7, 2014 8:31:52 PM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Fortunately for us a pendulum swing eventually reverses direction. >>>>>>>>> I think it is everones responsibility to change responsibly. Our >>>>>>>>> souls owe >>>>>>>>> that to humanity. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I know Gabby does not like my sig shit in view of her eye candy.. >>>>>>>>> tgat is tough shit as it us doing exactly egat I intended it to do .. >>>>>>>>> it is >>>>>>>>> my simple attempt to change away from the pendulum swing toward >>>>>>>>> violence >>>>>>>>> toward others. The best way of leadership lies in ones actions. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Do not murder, rape, enslave or harm others >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: RP Singh <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> To: Minds Eye <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Sun, 07 Dec 2014 8:48 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: the law of our own growth >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Oppression of women is decidedly wrong , but for a married person >>>>>>>>> to fall in love with another is not character. You fall in love with >>>>>>>>> a girl >>>>>>>>> and marry her then you fall in love with another woman , divorce your >>>>>>>>> wife >>>>>>>>> and marry again or just have an extra-marital affair is decidedly >>>>>>>>> wrong. >>>>>>>>> Even if your wife is ordinary in body and mind you still owe her >>>>>>>>> loyalty >>>>>>>>> and respect. There is no dearth of beautiful people , >>>>>>>>> but to love and respect your own partner even of ordinary >>>>>>>>> countenance is character. To be faithful to your society is character >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> if there are shortcomings in your society you should try to remove >>>>>>>>> them and >>>>>>>>> that is what has been done by great people in all societies. Even >>>>>>>>> ordinary >>>>>>>>> people can try to remove the abuses in their society according to >>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>> capabilities , and to convert to other religions is escaping the duty >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> bettering your society. You owe your family and society a duty to >>>>>>>>> work for >>>>>>>>> its betterment and to convert is escaping from that duty. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 11:55 PM, archytas <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Once the realization is accepted that even between the closest >>>>>>>>>> human beings infinite distances continue, a wonderful living side by >>>>>>>>>> side >>>>>>>>>> can grow, if they succeed in loving the distance between them which >>>>>>>>>> makes >>>>>>>>>> it possible for each to see the other whole against the sky. Fancy >>>>>>>>>> something a little different then Tony? Shall we 'admire' men who >>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>> women to live in black bags? Flowers rarely ask tough questions - >>>>>>>>>> Rilke >>>>>>>>>> was one. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, December 7, 2014 4:27:22 PM UTC, facilitator wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Healthy growth also requires a time or doing nothing. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > ""Minds Eye"" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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