Yes,  the idea is for flood  protection more than anything.  But the same idea 
would work..  You have to be extremely  careful  of the environment. 

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: gabbydott <[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 12:14 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: What could the internet be?

You have water house communities in holland.

Am Sonntag, 15. Februar 2015 schrieb :

> Utopia,,   strange thought..  The future is not bright.. But there is hope
> in small communities.. Verses standing valiantly alone against the odds..
>  Ocean community  barges are looking good..
> تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
> Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: archytas <[email protected]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>>
> To: [email protected]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>
> Sent: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 9:18 PM
> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: What could the internet be?
>
> More;s Utopia is pretty grim.  No astrology for Gabby and no tavern for me
> - indeed privacy was no concern at all - rather activity was supposed to be
> under public scrutiny.  Atheists were tolerated, but had to take
> instruction from priests.  We would have to get Facil to build a full size
> raft to commemorate our arrival on the place, close to somewhere to launch
> it.
>
> On Sunday, February 15, 2015 at 5:41:59 PM UTC, archytas wrote:
>>
>> One of the fantasies of academics who want a free internet is that this
>> will somehow remove bias.  This rather like the fantasy that markets are
>> free and unregulated (like in the unregulated times of the robber barons on
>> the Rhine?).  Astrology is based on fictions, yet what of such as
>> personality psychology in search of the ungroundable personality, or any of
>> the 'bag of words' my lot use that rely on words?  I'm Taurus and might get
>> on with half of you.  Solomon's sword comes to mind!
>>
>> On Sunday, February 15, 2015 at 5:16:01 PM UTC, archytas wrote:
>>>
>>> Utopia is a book that, like More (who preached religious tolerance and
>>> persecuted Protestants), attempted to navigate a course through the ideal
>>> and the real, between a desire to create perfection and the pragmatic
>>> understanding that perfection, given the fallibility of mankind, is
>>> impossible. Your social romantic might be interesting.  I must have spotted
>>> your sense of humour to invite you down the rabbit hole.  There remains the
>>> question we might just be ostrich and sticking our heads into the ground to
>>> evade an already unromantic world.  Gemini is a long way away.  We must be
>>> flouting relativity, but then, what are rules?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, February 15, 2015 at 3:17:25 PM UTC, Gabby wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I understood your title question. I have decided to not argue
>>>> along the your-question-is-wrong line but to take it a step further,
>>>> to take better care of my energy balance and to see where I am a social
>>>> romantic myself. I find it relatively easy yo laugh at myself, maybe a side
>>>> effect of my Gemini nature. But I don't want to bore you with my trivia.
>>>>
>>>> Am Sonntag, 15. Februar 2015 schrieb archytas :
>>>>
>>>>> I was thinking more of a shift from hurt and pain from authority
>>>>> claiming expertise and some radically different ways to live.  Surfacing
>>>>> the deep iconography which humans invent manners to avoid is obviously
>>>>> hurtful.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sunday, February 15, 2015 at 11:38:02 AM UTC, Gabby wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I prefer the social romantic quote from Facil to this quote here. New
>>>>>> times demand new imagery to hurt and to ridicule.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am Sonntag, 15. Februar 2015 schrieb Molly :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://youtu.be/sZrgxHvNNUc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 6:20:05 PM UTC-5, archytas wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's true Molly.  I'm only Oliver asking for more.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 8:45:34 PM UTC, Molly wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No doubt the current event stuff is conCOCKted and restricted. Net
>>>>>>>>> neutrality in the US is presented as not allowing broadband vendors 
>>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>>> what the government already does. Though all that crap, we can still 
>>>>>>>>> manage
>>>>>>>>> to extend our reach and ourselves in ways that raise consciousness 
>>>>>>>>> (McLuhan)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 12:13:03 PM UTC-5, archytas
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Foucault (1979) put forward some ideas on what would happen as
>>>>>>>>>> information technology took hold (The Postmodern Condition: a report 
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> knowledge).   Essentially, the  professor would be less a repository 
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> facts as we got free access to these.  Much of this literature would 
>>>>>>>>>> glow
>>>>>>>>>> bright from Gabby's red pen.  Quite a few have taken Fuller's view 
>>>>>>>>>> on how
>>>>>>>>>> to get more material into public scrutiny.  These should include the
>>>>>>>>>> distribution and circulation of knowledge claims. The task of social
>>>>>>>>>> epistemology of science, according to Fuller, should be regulation 
>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>> production of knowledge by regulating the rhetorical, technological, 
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> administrative means of its communication. While there has not been 
>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>> uptake of Fuller's proposals as articulated, Lee's work begins to 
>>>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>>>> detailed recommendations that take into account the current 
>>>>>>>>>> structures of
>>>>>>>>>> funding and communication.  Fuller encounter between individual-based
>>>>>>>>>> social epistemology with its focus on testimony and disagreement as
>>>>>>>>>> transactions among individuals and the more fully social 
>>>>>>>>>> epistemologies
>>>>>>>>>> that take social relations or interaction as partially constitutive 
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> empirical knowledge, is the goal.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Whatever this mouthful says, much is not on the internet because
>>>>>>>>>> existing power interests have prevented it.  A new business model 
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> countervailing structures is not really emerging.  The lack of 
>>>>>>>>>> progress is
>>>>>>>>>> not surprising, but I suspect most of us don't know how much has been
>>>>>>>>>> blocked.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Fuller, Steve, 1988. Social Epistemology, Bloomington, IN:
>>>>>>>>>> Indiana University Press.
>>>>>>>>>> Lee, Carole J., 2012. “A Kuhnian Critique of Psychometric
>>>>>>>>>> Research on Peer Review,” Philosophy of Science, 79(5): 859–870.
>>>>>>>>>> –––, Cassidy R. Sugimoto, Guo Zhang, and Blaise Cronin, 2013,
>>>>>>>>>> “Bias in Peer Review,” Journal of the American Society for 
>>>>>>>>>> Information
>>>>>>>>>> Science and Technology, 64(1): 2–17.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 3:14:39 PM UTC, archytas wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Welcome Twirly - you sound remarkably like someone else.  We'll
>>>>>>>>>>> be playing our cards right soon.  I'm glad you bought a pair of 
>>>>>>>>>>> Facil's
>>>>>>>>>>> boots.  Allan seems to have been filling his.  The question probably
>>>>>>>>>>> concerns what expert knowledge is.  There is now a long history of 
>>>>>>>>>>> what it
>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't.  Think clerks trying to smash Babbage's counting machine or
>>>>>>>>>>> Luddites on machinery generally.  The shipyards I worked in were 
>>>>>>>>>>> full of
>>>>>>>>>>> expert skills not actually needed in building ships.  We have 
>>>>>>>>>>> embedded a
>>>>>>>>>>> lot of work skill in technology.  The resistance of the allocation 
>>>>>>>>>>> class
>>>>>>>>>>> has been aggressive.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Do??? - there must be some German distinction between knowing
>>>>>>>>>>> that and knowing how - wohl wissend, dass and zu wissen, wie?  
>>>>>>>>>>> Finding the
>>>>>>>>>>> root metaphors is quite difficult.  People are reluctant to show 
>>>>>>>>>>> you what
>>>>>>>>>>> they actually do; perhaps beyond your category error and being left 
>>>>>>>>>>> trying
>>>>>>>>>>> to model a non-slip process with grease.  We have plenty of 
>>>>>>>>>>> examples of TPM
>>>>>>>>>>> (total production maintenance) as you say.  Teachers, lawyers, 
>>>>>>>>>>> accountants,
>>>>>>>>>>> managers and politicians all claim expert knowledge.  The expertise 
>>>>>>>>>>> may be
>>>>>>>>>>> keeping up the delusion of expertise, rather than rule following and
>>>>>>>>>>> ability to break the rules of actual practice, a bit like a 
>>>>>>>>>>> secretive form
>>>>>>>>>>> of a soccer player allowed to carry a machine gun - think big 
>>>>>>>>>>> company
>>>>>>>>>>> tax-dodging and stuff like high frequency trading, front-running 
>>>>>>>>>>> and other
>>>>>>>>>>> investment tricks since telescopes were used to spot ships on the 
>>>>>>>>>>> horizon
>>>>>>>>>>> by commodities traders.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Big issues, of course, concerning who controls the technology.
>>>>>>>>>>> Currently, ownership is very restricted, to niche markets like 
>>>>>>>>>>> Molly's and
>>>>>>>>>>> those behind the smiling pussy internet and government and 
>>>>>>>>>>> commercial
>>>>>>>>>>> spying.  Many still have no access.  And we have no challenge to 
>>>>>>>>>>> really big
>>>>>>>>>>> news-entertainment corporations - other than Democracy No, Real 
>>>>>>>>>>> News and
>>>>>>>>>>> illegal streams of the same old content.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 1:46:35 PM UTC, Gabby wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay. Next round. Twirly-girly at your service or at your
>>>>>>>>>>>> command, whatever you prefer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In a different context I pulled my red pen on the sentence
>>>>>>>>>>>> before the one that Facil marked. (Excellent video translation 
>>>>>>>>>>>> btw, Facil!)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> My main point was that you cannot do(???) expert knowledge on a
>>>>>>>>>>>> root metaphor with a categorical break at the wrong place - if not 
>>>>>>>>>>>> to say
>>>>>>>>>>>> on the wrong metaphor, because the same car driving training one 
>>>>>>>>>>>> was used.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Meaning in speed and business terms, the earlier in the process
>>>>>>>>>>>> you identify the error, the cheaper the error eradication process.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I took down a different different keyword from my eternal
>>>>>>>>>>>> savior's doings in the delusion thread, but I will take better 
>>>>>>>>>>>> care this
>>>>>>>>>>>> time as to not have it overwritten again this time. It will be one 
>>>>>>>>>>>> brick of
>>>>>>>>>>>> a solid square.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Freitag, 13. Februar 2015 15:41:22 UTC+1 schrieb archytas:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of my use of the internet concerns researching pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dire academic papers and books through still largely restricted 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> access.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's much cheaper than buying the stuff directly, particularly as 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 99% of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what shows up is dross.  I've played with the rest to find out 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> there.  Search is a big plus compared with rooting through stuff 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> university library.  Now, much google search just turns up dross 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> want.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In an academic project we are interested in what is on the net
>>>>>>>>>>>>> generally - in terms of how much of general consciousness this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> represents.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rational discussion is a tiny part of what is on the net.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Techies spend a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lot of time looking for cut and paste code and ways we might 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> automate this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sweep.  There is a background idea that we are looking for new 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ways to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'expert knowledge' on the metaphor of people not being able to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> build cars
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but able to drive them with a bit of training.  My own bad is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'big data' as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a new language that would bring a different speed to human 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> discourse and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> potentially control of the means of production.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lately, I'm interested in the lack of a business model for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything except trash.  I can join a site where a couple of young 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> women
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will send me off-the-peg clothes on approval to ensure my 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sartorial
>>>>>>>>>>>>> elegance, though don't.  There are plenty of interesting Moochs, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't have time.  I bank n line and have the joy of never seeing 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a bank
>>>>>>>>>>>>> clerk. Shopping can be done in the same manner as shops don't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interest me
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at all.  My insurance renewals are always 30% higher than I can 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> get the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> same cover for via one of the broker sites on the day.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do electronic teaching.  So I'm no longer racked by whatever
>>>>>>>>>>>>> diseases undergraduate classes try to kill me with.  And I never 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> see a boss
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or have to attend a useless staff meeting, or have my classes 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> flooded as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the students discover I'm an easier touch and tell jokes.  The 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work is more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or less pre-prepared and my timetable is not changed at 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ridiculous short
>>>>>>>>>>>>> notice and I don't have to take time to teach kids from other 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> classes, at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my door because they can't get anywhere with the guy supposed to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> help.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can watch television and films through illegal sites, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would really prefer to pay for channels where I could select from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wider material without packaging.  The current business model 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> encourages
>>>>>>>>>>>>> loads of channels with the same (usually old) dross, or stuff 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like Netflix
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with only 1% I'd want to see and don't want to pay to support.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sports
>>>>>>>>>>>>> channels require me to pay for soccer I don't want.  Tony has 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> done more for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> me in a few minutes (neglecting his production time) than Sky 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arts bores
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ever could.  We lack a business model of actual choice.  With one,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> insanestream news and other entertainment, the crap science 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pornography of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the BBC, Discovery and so on, would be things of my past.  In 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> chronic
>>>>>>>>>>>>> business terms, I wonder how they do market segmentation at all.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am sick
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Blue Peter (kids programme here) presentation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> One can imagine plenty of people like the best through this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> group wanting something very different and something large enough 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a part of when time presses and so on.  Uber, properly supervised 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> against
>>>>>>>>>>>>> racist drivers, could bring very radical change - I meet few who 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> explain why - though we have not yet worked out that technology 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>>>>>> massively reduce what we currently call work and planet burning.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> meantime we can't even set up a discussion group without Gabby 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone really) worrying on the curtain shades.  Give us a twirl 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>>>> girl, like one of those doxies Bruce Forsythe used to encourage.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can see
>>>>>>>>>>>>> something of a business model, starting with Chris' 'attractors'. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  The
>>>>>>>>>>>>> eventual key is content for a sophisticated audience - 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> remembering very few
>>>>>>>>>>>>> people do education without any kind of accreditation pay-off and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the means
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to pay for organisation does not move easily from free.  Current 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> strategies
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are advertising and the begging bowl.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>>
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