That's one perspective. Another perspective sees dams and water drainage
systems as protection against nature's constant attempt to get back what
man has stolen. Or so. ;)

Am Montag, 16. Februar 2015 schrieb :

> Yes,  the idea is for flood  protection more than anything.  But the same
> idea would work..  You have to be extremely  careful  of the environment.
>
> تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
> Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gabbydott <[email protected]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>>
> To: "[email protected]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>" <
> [email protected]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>>
> Sent: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 12:14 AM
> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: What could the internet be?
>
> You have water house communities in holland.
>
> Am Sonntag, 15. Februar 2015 schrieb :
>
>> Utopia,,   strange thought..  The future is not bright.. But there is
>> hope in small communities.. Verses standing valiantly alone against the
>> odds..
>>  Ocean community  barges are looking good..
>> تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
>> Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: archytas <[email protected]>
>> To: [email protected]
>> Sent: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 9:18 PM
>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: What could the internet be?
>>
>> More;s Utopia is pretty grim.  No astrology for Gabby and no tavern for
>> me - indeed privacy was no concern at all - rather activity was supposed to
>> be under public scrutiny.  Atheists were tolerated, but had to take
>> instruction from priests.  We would have to get Facil to build a full size
>> raft to commemorate our arrival on the place, close to somewhere to launch
>> it.
>>
>> On Sunday, February 15, 2015 at 5:41:59 PM UTC, archytas wrote:
>>>
>>> One of the fantasies of academics who want a free internet is that this
>>> will somehow remove bias.  This rather like the fantasy that markets are
>>> free and unregulated (like in the unregulated times of the robber barons on
>>> the Rhine?).  Astrology is based on fictions, yet what of such as
>>> personality psychology in search of the ungroundable personality, or any of
>>> the 'bag of words' my lot use that rely on words?  I'm Taurus and might get
>>> on with half of you.  Solomon's sword comes to mind!
>>>
>>> On Sunday, February 15, 2015 at 5:16:01 PM UTC, archytas wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Utopia is a book that, like More (who preached religious tolerance and
>>>> persecuted Protestants), attempted to navigate a course through the ideal
>>>> and the real, between a desire to create perfection and the pragmatic
>>>> understanding that perfection, given the fallibility of mankind, is
>>>> impossible. Your social romantic might be interesting.  I must have spotted
>>>> your sense of humour to invite you down the rabbit hole.  There remains the
>>>> question we might just be ostrich and sticking our heads into the ground to
>>>> evade an already unromantic world.  Gemini is a long way away.  We must be
>>>> flouting relativity, but then, what are rules?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sunday, February 15, 2015 at 3:17:25 PM UTC, Gabby wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I understood your title question. I have decided to not argue
>>>>> along the your-question-is-wrong line but to take it a step further,
>>>>> to take better care of my energy balance and to see where I am a social
>>>>> romantic myself. I find it relatively easy yo laugh at myself, maybe a 
>>>>> side
>>>>> effect of my Gemini nature. But I don't want to bore you with my trivia.
>>>>>
>>>>> Am Sonntag, 15. Februar 2015 schrieb archytas :
>>>>>
>>>>>> I was thinking more of a shift from hurt and pain from authority
>>>>>> claiming expertise and some radically different ways to live.  Surfacing
>>>>>> the deep iconography which humans invent manners to avoid is obviously
>>>>>> hurtful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sunday, February 15, 2015 at 11:38:02 AM UTC, Gabby wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I prefer the social romantic quote from Facil to this quote here.
>>>>>>> New times demand new imagery to hurt and to ridicule.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am Sonntag, 15. Februar 2015 schrieb Molly :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://youtu.be/sZrgxHvNNUc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 6:20:05 PM UTC-5, archytas wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That's true Molly.  I'm only Oliver asking for more.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 8:45:34 PM UTC, Molly wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No doubt the current event stuff is conCOCKted and restricted.
>>>>>>>>>> Net neutrality in the US is presented as not allowing broadband 
>>>>>>>>>> vendors
>>>>>>>>>> doing what the government already does. Though all that crap, we can 
>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>> manage to extend our reach and ourselves in ways that raise 
>>>>>>>>>> consciousness
>>>>>>>>>> (McLuhan)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 12:13:03 PM UTC-5, archytas
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Foucault (1979) put forward some ideas on what would happen as
>>>>>>>>>>> information technology took hold (The Postmodern Condition: a 
>>>>>>>>>>> report on
>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge).   Essentially, the  professor would be less a 
>>>>>>>>>>> repository of
>>>>>>>>>>> facts as we got free access to these.  Much of this literature 
>>>>>>>>>>> would glow
>>>>>>>>>>> bright from Gabby's red pen.  Quite a few have taken Fuller's view 
>>>>>>>>>>> on how
>>>>>>>>>>> to get more material into public scrutiny.  These should include the
>>>>>>>>>>> distribution and circulation of knowledge claims. The task of social
>>>>>>>>>>> epistemology of science, according to Fuller, should be regulation 
>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>> production of knowledge by regulating the rhetorical, 
>>>>>>>>>>> technological, and
>>>>>>>>>>> administrative means of its communication. While there has not been 
>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>> uptake of Fuller's proposals as articulated, Lee's work begins to 
>>>>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>>>>> detailed recommendations that take into account the current 
>>>>>>>>>>> structures of
>>>>>>>>>>> funding and communication.  Fuller encounter between 
>>>>>>>>>>> individual-based
>>>>>>>>>>> social epistemology with its focus on testimony and disagreement as
>>>>>>>>>>> transactions among individuals and the more fully social 
>>>>>>>>>>> epistemologies
>>>>>>>>>>> that take social relations or interaction as partially constitutive 
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> empirical knowledge, is the goal.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Whatever this mouthful says, much is not on the internet because
>>>>>>>>>>> existing power interests have prevented it.  A new business model 
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> countervailing structures is not really emerging.  The lack of 
>>>>>>>>>>> progress is
>>>>>>>>>>> not surprising, but I suspect most of us don't know how much has 
>>>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>>>> blocked.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Fuller, Steve, 1988. Social Epistemology, Bloomington, IN:
>>>>>>>>>>> Indiana University Press.
>>>>>>>>>>> Lee, Carole J., 2012. “A Kuhnian Critique of Psychometric
>>>>>>>>>>> Research on Peer Review,” Philosophy of Science, 79(5): 859–870.
>>>>>>>>>>> –––, Cassidy R. Sugimoto, Guo Zhang, and Blaise Cronin, 2013,
>>>>>>>>>>> “Bias in Peer Review,” Journal of the American Society for 
>>>>>>>>>>> Information
>>>>>>>>>>> Science and Technology, 64(1): 2–17.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 3:14:39 PM UTC, archytas wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Welcome Twirly - you sound remarkably like someone else.  We'll
>>>>>>>>>>>> be playing our cards right soon.  I'm glad you bought a pair of 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Facil's
>>>>>>>>>>>> boots.  Allan seems to have been filling his.  The question 
>>>>>>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>>>>>>> concerns what expert knowledge is.  There is now a long history of 
>>>>>>>>>>>> what it
>>>>>>>>>>>> wasn't.  Think clerks trying to smash Babbage's counting machine or
>>>>>>>>>>>> Luddites on machinery generally.  The shipyards I worked in were 
>>>>>>>>>>>> full of
>>>>>>>>>>>> expert skills not actually needed in building ships.  We have 
>>>>>>>>>>>> embedded a
>>>>>>>>>>>> lot of work skill in technology.  The resistance of the allocation 
>>>>>>>>>>>> class
>>>>>>>>>>>> has been aggressive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do??? - there must be some German distinction between knowing
>>>>>>>>>>>> that and knowing how - wohl wissend, dass and zu wissen, wie?  
>>>>>>>>>>>> Finding the
>>>>>>>>>>>> root metaphors is quite difficult.  People are reluctant to show 
>>>>>>>>>>>> you what
>>>>>>>>>>>> they actually do; perhaps beyond your category error and being 
>>>>>>>>>>>> left trying
>>>>>>>>>>>> to model a non-slip process with grease.  We have plenty of 
>>>>>>>>>>>> examples of TPM
>>>>>>>>>>>> (total production maintenance) as you say.  Teachers, lawyers, 
>>>>>>>>>>>> accountants,
>>>>>>>>>>>> managers and politicians all claim expert knowledge.  The 
>>>>>>>>>>>> expertise may be
>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping up the delusion of expertise, rather than rule following 
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> ability to break the rules of actual practice, a bit like a 
>>>>>>>>>>>> secretive form
>>>>>>>>>>>> of a soccer player allowed to carry a machine gun - think big 
>>>>>>>>>>>> company
>>>>>>>>>>>> tax-dodging and stuff like high frequency trading, front-running 
>>>>>>>>>>>> and other
>>>>>>>>>>>> investment tricks since telescopes were used to spot ships on the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> horizon
>>>>>>>>>>>> by commodities traders.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Big issues, of course, concerning who controls the technology.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Currently, ownership is very restricted, to niche markets like 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Molly's and
>>>>>>>>>>>> those behind the smiling pussy internet and government and 
>>>>>>>>>>>> commercial
>>>>>>>>>>>> spying.  Many still have no access.  And we have no challenge to 
>>>>>>>>>>>> really big
>>>>>>>>>>>> news-entertainment corporations - other than Democracy No, Real 
>>>>>>>>>>>> News and
>>>>>>>>>>>> illegal streams of the same old content.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 1:46:35 PM UTC, Gabby wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay. Next round. Twirly-girly at your service or at your
>>>>>>>>>>>>> command, whatever you prefer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In a different context I pulled my red pen on the sentence
>>>>>>>>>>>>> before the one that Facil marked. (Excellent video translation 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> btw, Facil!)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My main point was that you cannot do(???) expert knowledge on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a root metaphor with a categorical break at the wrong place - if 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the wrong metaphor, because the same car driving training one 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was used.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Meaning in speed and business terms, the earlier in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> process you identify the error, the cheaper the error eradication 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> process.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I took down a different different keyword from my eternal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> savior's doings in the delusion thread, but I will take better 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> care this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> time as to not have it overwritten again this time. It will be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one brick of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a solid square.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Freitag, 13. Februar 2015 15:41:22 UTC+1 schrieb archytas:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of my use of the internet concerns researching pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dire academic papers and books through still largely restricted 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> access.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's much cheaper than buying the stuff directly, particularly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as 99% of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what shows up is dross.  I've played with the rest to find out 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there.  Search is a big plus compared with rooting through stuff 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> university library.  Now, much google search just turns up dross 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In an academic project we are interested in what is on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> net generally - in terms of how much of general consciousness 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> represents.  Rational discussion is a tiny part of what is on 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the net.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Techies spend a lot of time looking for cut and paste code and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ways we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might automate this sweep.  There is a background idea that we 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are looking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for new ways to do 'expert knowledge' on the metaphor of people 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to build cars but able to drive them with a bit of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> training.  My own
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad is 'big data' as a new language that would bring a different 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speed to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> human discourse and potentially control of the means of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> production.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lately, I'm interested in the lack of a business model for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything except trash.  I can join a site where a couple of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> young women
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will send me off-the-peg clothes on approval to ensure my 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sartorial
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> elegance, though don't.  There are plenty of interesting Moochs, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't have time.  I bank n line and have the joy of never seeing 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a bank
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clerk. Shopping can be done in the same manner as shops don't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interest me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at all.  My insurance renewals are always 30% higher than I can 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same cover for via one of the broker sites on the day.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do electronic teaching.  So I'm no longer racked by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever diseases undergraduate classes try to kill me with.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I never
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see a boss or have to attend a useless staff meeting, or have my 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> classes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flooded as the students discover I'm an easier touch and tell 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jokes.  The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work is more or less pre-prepared and my timetable is not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changed at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ridiculous short notice and I don't have to take time to teach 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kids from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other classes, at my door because they can't get anywhere with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the guy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> supposed to help.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can watch television and films through illegal sites, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would really prefer to pay for channels where I could select 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wider material without packaging.  The current business model 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> encourages
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> loads of channels with the same (usually old) dross, or stuff 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like Netflix
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with only 1% I'd want to see and don't want to pay to support.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sports
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> channels require me to pay for soccer I don't want.  Tony has 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> done more for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me in a few minutes (neglecting his production time) than Sky 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Arts bores
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ever could.  We lack a business model of actual choice.  With 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> insanestream news and other entertainment, the crap science 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pornography of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the BBC, Discovery and so on, would be things of my past.  In 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chronic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> business terms, I wonder how they do market segmentation at all. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  I am sick
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Blue Peter (kids programme here) presentation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One can imagine plenty of people like the best through this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> group wanting something very different and something large 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough not to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a part of when time presses and so on.  Uber, properly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> supervised against
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> racist drivers, could bring very radical change - I meet few who 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explain why - though we have not yet worked out that technology 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> massively reduce what we currently call work and planet burning. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  In the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meantime we can't even set up a discussion group without Gabby 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone really) worrying on the curtain shades.  Give us a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> twirl then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> girl, like one of those doxies Bruce Forsythe used to encourage. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  I can see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something of a business model, starting with Chris' 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'attractors'.  The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eventual key is content for a sophisticated audience - 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remembering very few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people do education without any kind of accreditation pay-off 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the means
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to pay for organisation does not move easily from free.  Current 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strategies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are advertising and the begging bowl.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>>>
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