Hi, this is the conversation I had with Theo:
1. mail, 12.03.2007 01:29 Dear Theo, allBSD is currently prepairing for the Stop Blob! campaign an we have a poster ready here: http://www.allbsd.de/src/Kampagnen/StopBlob/StopBlob-en-Poster.pdf This is already translated into some languages, more are to come soon and I'm currently writing a flyer that will be translated too in as many languages as possible. Any objections/ideas? Best regadrs, Daniel 2. mail from Theo, 12.03.2007 02:34: I don't know why you are using a BSD daemon, when the two BSD's that use Daemon imagery are the ones that ACCEPT blobs, in particular, Sam Leffler's atheros driver. So I absolutely do not see how you think you can go stealing our campaign for your own use! WE are the only people of the ones that you claim to represent who are actually standing up for this issue. If you put those other project's names on there, that's unbelieveably disrespectful of our efforts. FreeBSD *specifically* has vendor drivers in it, and has developers who work at vendors. Not just Sam, but they also have an employee of NVidia who they consider a developer, and who now makes changes to the ethernet driver everyone got from us, without even replying to mails from our developers who wrote it! No. I entirely object to what you are doing here. You are trying to make it look like those other projects are anti-blob, when they are NOT. 3. mail from Theo, 12.03.2007 03:00: Did you even think about the fact that there are only two operating systems that ship without blobs? OpenBSD Debian (and derived systems) FreeBSD and NetBSD are not on the list of blob-less operating systems. Both of them ship with at least one blob, compiled directly into the kernel. Their developers have NEVER helped us fight for documentation, or fight the blob. They've made a couple vague words sometimes, but then gone back to their American ways and talked about the need to sometimes compromise. They have UNDERMINED our efforts to fight the blob, and now you want to include them in a poster about it? I think you are not thinking your campaign through very well at all. 4. mail from me to Theo, 13.03.2007 01:16: Theo de Raadt qrote: > > I don't know why you are using a BSD daemon, when the two BSD's > > that use Daemon imagery are the ones that ACCEPT blobs, in particular, > > Sam Leffler's atheros driver. > > > > So I absolutely do not see how you think you can go stealing our > > campaign for your own use! > > > > WE are the only people of the ones that you claim to represent > > who are actually standing up for this issue. If you put those other > > project's names on there, that's unbelieveably disrespectful of > > our efforts. > > > > FreeBSD *specifically* has vendor drivers in it, and has developers > > who work at vendors. Not just Sam, but they also have an employee > > of NVidia who they consider a developer, and who now makes changes > > to the ethernet driver everyone got from us, without even replying > > to mails from our developers who wrote it! > > > > No. I entirely object to what you are doing here. You are trying > > to make it look like those other projects are anti-blob, when they > > are NOT. Hi Theo, in short: This campaign was startet after a long discussion internally and we couldn't find ANY BSD-guy from whatever BSD that claimed Blobs or NDAs are a good idea. We have a large number of individuals using and contributing to all BSDs and this is not a campaign pointing fingers to certain people using Blobs. This is a campaign to rise public awareness that Blobs are a bad idea and they should support ALL BSDs fighting against it. We all need free documentation and we all want it. This campaign is totally unrelated to the one started with OpenBSD 3.9 and the poster for it and we haven't used anything from it, so there's absolutely no "stealing our campaign". And no, nobody is unrespectful here. And btw it's not our own use. We want to help all BSDs in getting more documentation. Yes, there are 4 Blobs in FreeBSD-Generic, NetBSD maybe 1 but I would better subscribe it as a firmware modul, MirOS none, DragonFly none afaik. But this is a bad idea and a lot of FreeBSD-people sharing that view. But this is BSD and freedom of choice. If somebody wants to use NVidia drivers or the like it's his own risk, not mine or ours. Don't complain, tell why it's wrong. And for that very purpose I'm writing the flyer following soon. The BSD deamon was used because it's the only symbol shared by all BSDs and it looks nice, people liked the first poster draft a lot when we showed it 2 weeks ago in Chemnitz (the poster was changed in between after that experience). You claim you don't get any support from the other BSDs and now a group of other BSD-users starts that campaign and you complain. Where's the beef? Best regards, Daniel 5. mail from Theo, 13.03.2007 02:36: > in short: This campaign was startet after a long discussion internally > > and we couldn't find ANY BSD-guy from whatever BSD that claimed Blobs > > or NDAs are a good idea. Did you ask Sam Leffler, who writes a BLOB that is included in FreeBSD? I guess not. Did you ask the Nvidia employee who works for FreeBSD? Oh, they may they would say that Blobs are a bad idea, but sure as hell won't argue against them either. > > We have a large number of individuals using and contributing to all > > BSDs and this is not a campaign pointing fingers to certain people > > using Blobs. > > > > This is a campaign to rise public awareness that Blobs are a bad idea > > and they should support ALL BSDs fighting against it. We all need free > > documentation and we all want it. > > > > This campaign is totally unrelated to the one started with OpenBSD > > 3.9 and the poster for it and we haven't used anything from it, so > > there's absolutely no "stealing our campaign". And no, nobody is > > unrespectful here. This campaign is using our words. If you release > > And btw it's not our own use. We want to help all BSDs in getting > > more documentation. This campaign will not get the BSD's more documentation. It will tell a lie -- that lie being that the other BSD's are anti-BLOB, when they have developers actively incorporating and shipping BLOBS. Your whole campaign is a lie. > > Yes, there are 4 Blobs in FreeBSD-Generic, NetBSD maybe 1 but I would > > better subscribe it as a firmware modul, MirOS none, DragonFly none > > afaik. If those are firmware modules, then I don't know what a blob is. > > But this is a bad idea and a lot of FreeBSD-people sharing that > > view. But this is BSD and freedom of choice. Fuck that. It is not about freedom of choice. Our campaign is about the freedom to impliment on our hardware, code that we can trust. You want to subvert our campaign, and turn it into a shadow of itself. > > If somebody wants to use > > NVidia drivers or the like it's his own risk, not mine or ours. Don't > > complain, tell why it's wrong. And for that very purpose I'm writing > > the flyer following soon. The vendors are free to not release documentation, and they are free to convince projects to incorporate blobs. But you are going to send out a flyer saying that the BSD's contain no blobs. That is a big fat lie. And it is not the vendors lying, nor is it the projects lying. You are the one telling a lie. > > You claim you don't get any support from the other BSDs and now a > > group of other BSD-users starts that campaign and you complain. > > Where's the beef? You are not one of "the other BSDs". Your campaign will not support more documentation. It puts the name of BLOB-including operating systems on a poster saying that they are anti-blob. That's a bald lie, and it undermines our effort. OpenBSD distinguishes itself on the fact that it does not include blobs. Most other operating systems are completely fine with incorporating blobs. The other projects you are showing on the poster specifically include blobs. They do NOT help us get documentation. When we ask vendors for documentation, the other projects do NOT back us. I've seen mails sent to vendors where FreeBSD developers try to make our requests look wrong. Yes, they have actively SHUTTLED our attempts to get more documentation. Why are you not capable of thinking clearly on this? If you release that poster which uses our slogan in such an incredibly false way, I will come out swinging. I will probably post all these emails. If you want a campaign of some sort, invent something of your own. Stealing our campaign just shows that you don't have any brains. I am cc'ing Wim, to bring him into this conversation. 6. mail from me to Theo and Wim, 13.03.2007 19:08: Theo de Raadt wrote: >> >> in short: This campaign was startet after a long discussion internally >> >> and we couldn't find ANY BSD-guy from whatever BSD that claimed Blobs >> >> or NDAs are a good idea. > > > > Did you ask Sam Leffler, who writes a BLOB that is included in > > FreeBSD? > > > > I guess not. > > > > Did you ask the Nvidia employee who works for FreeBSD? The mere fact that some FreeBSD-guys include Blobs in GENERIC instead of shipping a Blob-free FreeBSD and let the user choose if they like to add Blobs is a sad story. I am totally sure we need to make clear that a large part or maybe the majority of FreeBSD users don't like that to change things. You are a guy who hasn't learned anything from the past and that accusations in public need to exactly nothing. And you will likely never learn till the end of your life. That's your Karma and I respect that. > > Oh, they may they would say that Blobs are a bad idea, but sure as > > hell won't argue against them either. > > >> >> We have a large number of individuals using and contributing to all >> >> BSDs and this is not a campaign pointing fingers to certain people >> >> using Blobs. >> >> >> >> This is a campaign to rise public awareness that Blobs are a bad idea >> >> and they should support ALL BSDs fighting against it. We all need free >> >> documentation and we all want it. >> >> >> >> This campaign is totally unrelated to the one started with OpenBSD >> >> 3.9 and the poster for it and we haven't used anything from it, so >> >> there's absolutely no "stealing our campaign". And no, nobody is >> >> unrespectful here. > > > > This campaign is using our words. If you release Ok, the only thing OpenBSD-related is "Stob Blob!" and the OpenBSD-logo. We respect that and we will eliminate that asap to make sure nobody thinks this campaign has anything to do with OpenBSD. >> >> And btw it's not our own use. We want to help all BSDs in getting >> >> more documentation. > > > > This campaign will not get the BSD's more documentation. It will > > tell a lie -- that lie being that the other BSD's are anti-BLOB, > > when they have developers actively incorporating and shipping BLOBS. > > > > Your whole campaign is a lie. > > >> >> Yes, there are 4 Blobs in FreeBSD-Generic, NetBSD maybe 1 but I would >> >> better subscribe it as a firmware modul, MirOS none, DragonFly none >> >> afaik. > > > > If those are firmware modules, then I don't know what a blob is. > > >> >> But this is a bad idea and a lot of FreeBSD-people sharing that >> >> view. But this is BSD and freedom of choice. > > > > Fuck that. It is not about freedom of choice. Our campaign is about > > the freedom to impliment on our hardware, code that we can trust. > > You want to subvert our campaign, and turn it into a shadow of itself. > > >> >> If somebody wants to use >> >> NVidia drivers or the like it's his own risk, not mine or ours. Don't >> >> complain, tell why it's wrong. And for that very purpose I'm writing >> >> the flyer following soon. > > > > The vendors are free to not release documentation, and they are free > > to convince projects to incorporate blobs. But you are going to send > > out a flyer saying that the BSD's contain no blobs. No, I havent't told you I would write that and you haven't seen the unfinished flyer yet. You are assuming that I will tell lies, which I will not. I will tell people which Blobs are used in each BSD and that this is wrong imho. I'm not in a position to lie about anything, neither to you nor any other person. > > That is a big fat lie. And it is not the vendors lying, nor is it > > the projects lying. > > > > You are the one telling a lie. Sorry, this is personal without any evidence/argument. >> >> You claim you don't get any support from the other BSDs and now a >> >> group of other BSD-users starts that campaign and you complain. >> >> Where's the beef? > > > > You are not one of "the other BSDs". Your campaign will not support > > more documentation. It puts the name of BLOB-including operating > > systems on a poster saying that they are anti-blob. That's a bald > > lie, and it undermines our effort. > > > > OpenBSD distinguishes itself on the fact that it does not include > > blobs. Most other operating systems are completely fine with > > incorporating blobs. The other projects you are showing on the poster > > specifically include blobs. They do NOT help us get documentation. > > > > When we ask vendors for documentation, the other projects do NOT back > > us. I've seen mails sent to vendors where FreeBSD developers try to > > make our requests look wrong. Yes, they have actively SHUTTLED our > > attempts to get more documentation. > > > > Why are you not capable of thinking clearly on this? > > > > If you release that poster which uses our slogan in such an incredibly > > false way, I will come out swinging. I will probably post all these > > emails. Please post all the mails on misc or whereever you may like, we don't have anything to hide in public. > > If you want a campaign of some sort, invent something of your own. > > Stealing our campaign just shows that you don't have any brains. We will eliminate anything that has the slightest touch of OpenBSD and your campaign in it. > > I am cc'ing Wim, to bring him into this conversation. No prob with that. Best regards and thanks for your attention and advice. - Daniel That was the conversation in detail, nothing altered, nothing left out, read and draw your own conclusions. Sorry, I'm not angry, I'm focused and productive. Best regards, Daniel
