Hi Tuukka,
this is not an easy question.
There will be a benefit for the manufacturer if we build a first class
mapping for one, but not for an other.
If we by a controller via the normal distribution chain, there are
many parties which earn money from that.
This feels like a bead deal compared to a free sample from an
manufacturer, which counts only the
hardware cost, on a depreciable marketing account.
Also the mapping work itself is an issue. Why should a contributor
spend time on a second mapping when
he has already a working setup at home? How should we decide which
controller will be the next when there
is no personal interest.
This deal sound better to me: A free controller for a mapping included
in the Mixxx setup and an entry on a recommendation list
sound fair to me.
Kind regards,
Daniel
2015-11-23 7:44 GMT+01:00 Tuukka Pasanen <pasanen.tuu...@gmail.com
<mailto:pasanen.tuu...@gmail.com>>:
Hello,
Should we have some fundraiser to buy some controllers for devs to
make
good mappings for the high-end contollers?
Tuukka
23.11.2015, 00:22, Be kirjoitti:
> (I'm consoldiating these related threads into one.)
>
> On 11/19/2015 08:18 PM, RJ Ryan wrote:
>
> > The standards are much lower since there is little risk to
doing so. If
> > we took in C++ patches without review we could cause crashes
or actual
> > damage to the user's computer. The sandboxed environment we run
> > Javascript in is not capable of this. While it's true that
Javascript
> > can trigger unexpected behavior in Mixxx there is not an
effective way
> > to explore the set of possible inputs a script will provide
to Mixxx
> > without the device in hand. In most cases, a preset is not
going to take
> > down Mixxx.
>
> Mixxx crashing is beside the point to someone who has spent
$600+ on a
> controller if Mixxx doesn't even support the controller.
>
> Reviewers have been saying for years that the haphazard controller
> support is one of Mixxx's biggest weak points and not much has
been done
> about it till now. They're not just talking about any support
because
> that is beside the point for someone who spent money on a
controller and
> could use other software that came with the controller and does
support
> it. They're talking about fully mapped controllers with
documentation.
> For example:
>
> http://djtechtools.com/2012/08/07/review-mixxx-1-10-dj-software/
>
> "Besides, Mixxx includes a good start on MIDI controller
compatibility,
> with Mixx Certified mappings for 13 controllers — including the Midi
> Fighter Classic — and community supported mappings for 29
controllers.
> They would love to have you fill in the blanks by creating a new
> mapping. *The functionality and quality of documentation among the
> community-supported mappings varies.* [emphasis mine]
>
> I tested Mixxx with the community-supported mapping for the M-Audio
> Xponent. It was a nice way to resurrect a controller I had
mostly placed
> on the shelf. I was able to control Mixxx almost entirely from the
> Xponent. With the exception of some browser functions and
Sampler Deck
> control, keyboard shortcuts could make up for what the controller
> mapping didn’t provide."
>
>
> http://djworx.com/mixxx-1-12-beta-still-free/
>
> "Setting up isn’t as plug ‘n’ play as commercial offerings,
either, with
> mapping options relying on DIY rather than a large existing
library of
> controllers."
>
> Including incomplete mappings like the Xponent mapping reviewed
above
> does not change this situation. It's still DIY to get one's
hardware to
> actually work.
>
>
>
http://www.digitaldjtips.com/2011/11/review-mixxx-10-1-0-free-dj-software/
>
> "Review Summary:
>
> Mixxx is now better than it’s ever been. If you’re an open source
> enthusiast who knows a bit about Midi, XML and coding in
general, you
> can get involved and adapt Mixxx to suit whatever Midi gear you
have,
> but if you’re just a plug-and-play DJ, unless you have one of the
> controllers it is already mapped for, *it isn’t going to be of
much use
> to you.* [emphasis mine]
>
> ...
>
> Midi and mappings
> But the crucial area where Mixxx still lacks for me is in
out-of-the-box
> Midi control. Mixxx 1.10.0 comes with support of variable
quality for a
> small number of controllers, *but it’s not the ones that are selling
> well today.* [This was four years ago and the situation hasn't
changed
> much.]
>
> Now, it is perfectly possible to produce your own mappings. Indeed
> there’s a Midi Learn option where you are talked through the various
> controls to get a rudimentary mapping going in a matter of
minutes (I
> got the Vestax VCI-400 we are currently reviewing partly
controlling the
> software in less than five minutes).
>
> But getting your mapping 100% right? That’s harder. Jogwheels are
> famously the hard bit about Midi mapping, and you need to get your
> sleeves rolled up and start hacking in order to add this kind of
> functionality to a custom mapping, using Midi sniffer apps and
writing
> XML. If you thought mapping Traktor was hard, wait until you get
stuck
> into this beast. There’s a friendly user community and an excellent
> wiki, but plug and play it ain’t, unless you have one of the
controllers
> it natively supports."
>
> > None of us are lawyers, so we should not be making
decisions about a
> > legal grey area. I think the legally clearest and safest
> situation would
> > be to require mappings to be licensed under the GPLv2 or
later
> and have
> > mapping authors sign the agreement.
> >
> >
> > I understand your position here. I've consulted lawyers
about this. I'd
> > prefer to not discuss this any further on our public email list.
>
> The question of legality isn't my only concern about taking mappings
> without explicit consent. I am also concerned about the quality
of the
> mapping. If mappers have to submit mappings themselves, I don't
think
> anyone is going to submit a mapping before they feel it is
complete and
> ready.
>
> On 11/22/2015 02:22 PM, Be wrote:
>> On 11/20/2015 10:53 AM, Sean M. Pappalardo - D.J. Pegasus wrote:
>>> On 11/19/2015 11:06 PM, Be wrote:
>>>> Also, what devices do people want supported? IMO it is a big
problem
>>>> that Mixxx lacks much support for popular brands that
make quality
>>>> hardware that is commercially available today. Where is the
support
>>>> for contemporary Native Instruments, Pioneer, Akai, and DJ
Tech Tools
>>>> controllers?
>>> Supporting newer controllers requires either manufacturer
cooperation
>>> (many of them have their hands tied when they do bundling
deals with
>>> other DJ software,) or funds to purchase the controllers
ourselves,
>>> which we definitely don't have because we have no income stream.
>> Both of those would be great, but neither are necessary. For
popular
>> controllers, enough users come by Mixxx interested in a
mapping. Soon
>> enough one of them has the ability and time to make a mapping.
These
>> users need to be supported technically and encouraged, which I
have been
>> doing.
>>
>>>> ~3/4 mappings in Mixxx are for devices that have been
discontinued.
>>> That's due to a number of things 1) the market moves so
quickly that
>>> controllers are discontinued within a year in some cases and 2) a
>>> majority of Mixxx users are in situations where second-hand
controllers
>>> make the most sense for them, so those are what people create
presets for.
>>> (This latter point isn't a bad thing because people new to
Mixxx can try
>>> it with whatever controller they already have or can get
inexpensively.)
>> The market moving quickly is not an excuse for not keeping up.
We can.
>> As I mentioned above, people want the latest controllers to
work with Mixxx.
>>
>> I think a majority of Mixxx users are in situations where
second-hand
>> controllers make the most sense for a few interrelated reasons.
It's
>> kinda a chicken-and-egg problem. Before I overhauled the wiki this
>> summer, it was difficult to tell what Mixxx actually supported,
which
>> made it confusing and difficult to pick a controller to use
with Mixxx.
>> So, it's not surprising that many people would get whatever
controller
>> they could find cheaply and hope it worked. Also, Mixxx has a
reputation
>> of being just a nice thing to try for beginner DJs without
having to
>> invest much, so these have generally been the people who came
to Mixxx.
>>
>> I would like to see Mixxx outgrow this reputation. I would like
to see
>> new DJs coming to Mixxx and staying with Mixxx. I would like to
see DJs
>> switching to Mixxx from proprietary DJ programs and sticking
with Mixxx.
>> This requires fully supporting popular middle and high grade
controllers
>> like the Traktor Kontrol S4 and Pioneer DDJ-SR and DDJ-SX2.
With 2.0,
>> Mixxx is getting close to outgrowing that reputation in terms of
>> features. But I think including mappings without any quality
control
>> will hold it back.
>>
>>>> Write the documentation, and people step up to do the work.
>>> While good documentation is indeed essential, our experience
with many
>>> Mixxx users who want to add support for a controller is that
they are
>>> spooked even by the idea of editing an XML file*, let alone
working with
>>> JavaScript, despite the extensive documentation on the wiki
which was
>>> available when the scripting engine was released.
>>>
>>> *So often that one person made a lighthearted joke about it:
>>> http://downloads.mixxx.org/mess/baddudes.gif
>>>
>>> In short, the average Mixxx user is not a developer by any
stretch and
>>> has no interest in becoming one. While it's fine to have a
>>> developer-friendly work flow (i.e. Github PRs) _available_ for
preset
>>> contributors, it cannot be required. There are already too
many required
>>> technical hurdles for non-developer contributors; we certainly
can't
>>> afford to add another.
>> The XML mapping format is inadequate and any GUI that could be
designed
>> around it would be too. It may have made sense 8 years ago when
MIDI
>> controllers designed for DJing were just starting to be made
and when
>> the M-Audio Xponent and Vestax VCI-100 were decent controllers.
But now,
>> even cheap controllers like the Mixtrack Pro 3 and Pioneer
DDJ-SB2 are
>> complex devices designed to have multiple layers of
functionality (and
>> increasingly the LEDs make use of different colors).
>>
>> There is no good way to support such devices without a fully
featured
>> programming language -- unless you think Traktor's maze of
mouse-driven
>> menus or VirtualDJ's hacky scripting language are good solutions. I
>> suspect extending the XML mapping format would bring us closer
to those
>> messes. I think the best way to move forward with mappings is
to make it
>> easier to use JavaScript well.
>>
>> Being free software and the only digital DJ program for
GNU/Linux that
>> can do anything more than vinyl control, Mixxx attracts plenty of
>> technically-inclined people who could program mappings in
JavaScript.
>> I'm thinking of people like myself who have programmed a few little
>> things here and there, may or may not have any formal training in
>> programming, and probably don't know JavaScript well or at all.
These
>> are generally the people who have been making mappings. As
evidence,
>> consider that many mappings were previously scattered around
the web in
>> their own GitHub repository (that wasn't forked from
mixxxdj/mixxx) or
>> on a personal blog. For this group, learning the basics of git
is not
>> too much to ask. The mapping documentation should be written
for this
>> audience. It should go out of the way to explain some basic
things about
>> JavaScript and good coding practices rather than assuming the
reader
>> understands the example code with minimal explanation.
>>
>>> Remember that Mixxx users are our customers and this (like all
>>> user-facing items) is a customer service issue. To that end,
what the
>>> average user needs most is a GUI preset creation system that
can map
>>> everything, jog wheels included. (I have plans to make this
actually
>>> happen even for HID controllers.) They are then free to share
these with
>>> us any way they are able, be it Github PR, forum post, E-mail
>>> attachment, SD card on a carrier pigeon, etc.
>> As explained above, we shouldn't expect good mappings without
coding.
>> There is a place for incomplete mappings. That place is the
forum. But
>> those mappings should not be included in Mixxx. No matter what
>> disclaimers we say, if someone buys a controller and tries a
mapping
>> included in Mixxx but it doesn't really work, or it works in an
awkward
>> way, that reflects poorly on Mixxx.
>>
>> On that note, "Community Supported Mappings" has been a
misleading term.
>> A mapping author continuing to staying involved in the Mixxx
community
>> and supporting the mapping has been more the exception than the
rule.
>> Keeping mappers involved is also important for getting input on
how to
>> improve the mapping system. I don't think requiring mappings to go
>> through code review on a GitHub pull request will totally solve
this
>> issue, but I think it is a step towards keeping mappers
engaged. Towards
>> that end, I just put a note on the Contributing Mappings wiki page
>> encouraging mappers to join the mailing list.
>>
>>> Again, thank you for your time and interest in improving Mixxx. We
>>> appreciate the occasional whip-crack to keep the documentation
up to
>>> stuff. (It's important for fellow developers as well as users!)
>> Thanks for making the only mapping system for DJ software that
uses an
>> actual programming language. :)
>>
>>
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