Hello, Should we have some fundraiser to buy some controllers for devs to make good mappings for the high-end contollers?
Tuukka 23.11.2015, 00:22, Be kirjoitti: > (I'm consoldiating these related threads into one.) > > On 11/19/2015 08:18 PM, RJ Ryan wrote: > > > The standards are much lower since there is little risk to doing so. If > > we took in C++ patches without review we could cause crashes or actual > > damage to the user's computer. The sandboxed environment we run > > Javascript in is not capable of this. While it's true that Javascript > > can trigger unexpected behavior in Mixxx there is not an effective way > > to explore the set of possible inputs a script will provide to Mixxx > > without the device in hand. In most cases, a preset is not going to take > > down Mixxx. > > Mixxx crashing is beside the point to someone who has spent $600+ on a > controller if Mixxx doesn't even support the controller. > > Reviewers have been saying for years that the haphazard controller > support is one of Mixxx's biggest weak points and not much has been done > about it till now. They're not just talking about any support because > that is beside the point for someone who spent money on a controller and > could use other software that came with the controller and does support > it. They're talking about fully mapped controllers with documentation. > For example: > > http://djtechtools.com/2012/08/07/review-mixxx-1-10-dj-software/ > > "Besides, Mixxx includes a good start on MIDI controller compatibility, > with Mixx Certified mappings for 13 controllers — including the Midi > Fighter Classic — and community supported mappings for 29 controllers. > They would love to have you fill in the blanks by creating a new > mapping. *The functionality and quality of documentation among the > community-supported mappings varies.* [emphasis mine] > > I tested Mixxx with the community-supported mapping for the M-Audio > Xponent. It was a nice way to resurrect a controller I had mostly placed > on the shelf. I was able to control Mixxx almost entirely from the > Xponent. With the exception of some browser functions and Sampler Deck > control, keyboard shortcuts could make up for what the controller > mapping didn’t provide." > > > http://djworx.com/mixxx-1-12-beta-still-free/ > > "Setting up isn’t as plug ‘n’ play as commercial offerings, either, with > mapping options relying on DIY rather than a large existing library of > controllers." > > Including incomplete mappings like the Xponent mapping reviewed above > does not change this situation. It's still DIY to get one's hardware to > actually work. > > > http://www.digitaldjtips.com/2011/11/review-mixxx-10-1-0-free-dj-software/ > > "Review Summary: > > Mixxx is now better than it’s ever been. If you’re an open source > enthusiast who knows a bit about Midi, XML and coding in general, you > can get involved and adapt Mixxx to suit whatever Midi gear you have, > but if you’re just a plug-and-play DJ, unless you have one of the > controllers it is already mapped for, *it isn’t going to be of much use > to you.* [emphasis mine] > > ... > > Midi and mappings > But the crucial area where Mixxx still lacks for me is in out-of-the-box > Midi control. Mixxx 1.10.0 comes with support of variable quality for a > small number of controllers, *but it’s not the ones that are selling > well today.* [This was four years ago and the situation hasn't changed > much.] > > Now, it is perfectly possible to produce your own mappings. Indeed > there’s a Midi Learn option where you are talked through the various > controls to get a rudimentary mapping going in a matter of minutes (I > got the Vestax VCI-400 we are currently reviewing partly controlling the > software in less than five minutes). > > But getting your mapping 100% right? That’s harder. Jogwheels are > famously the hard bit about Midi mapping, and you need to get your > sleeves rolled up and start hacking in order to add this kind of > functionality to a custom mapping, using Midi sniffer apps and writing > XML. If you thought mapping Traktor was hard, wait until you get stuck > into this beast. There’s a friendly user community and an excellent > wiki, but plug and play it ain’t, unless you have one of the controllers > it natively supports." > > > None of us are lawyers, so we should not be making decisions about a > > legal grey area. I think the legally clearest and safest > situation would > > be to require mappings to be licensed under the GPLv2 or later > and have > > mapping authors sign the agreement. > > > > > > I understand your position here. I've consulted lawyers about this. I'd > > prefer to not discuss this any further on our public email list. > > The question of legality isn't my only concern about taking mappings > without explicit consent. I am also concerned about the quality of the > mapping. If mappers have to submit mappings themselves, I don't think > anyone is going to submit a mapping before they feel it is complete and > ready. > > On 11/22/2015 02:22 PM, Be wrote: >> On 11/20/2015 10:53 AM, Sean M. Pappalardo - D.J. Pegasus wrote: >>> On 11/19/2015 11:06 PM, Be wrote: >>>> Also, what devices do people want supported? IMO it is a big problem >>>> that Mixxx lacks much support for popular brands that make quality >>>> hardware that is commercially available today. Where is the support >>>> for contemporary Native Instruments, Pioneer, Akai, and DJ Tech Tools >>>> controllers? >>> Supporting newer controllers requires either manufacturer cooperation >>> (many of them have their hands tied when they do bundling deals with >>> other DJ software,) or funds to purchase the controllers ourselves, >>> which we definitely don't have because we have no income stream. >> Both of those would be great, but neither are necessary. For popular >> controllers, enough users come by Mixxx interested in a mapping. Soon >> enough one of them has the ability and time to make a mapping. These >> users need to be supported technically and encouraged, which I have been >> doing. >> >>>> ~3/4 mappings in Mixxx are for devices that have been discontinued. >>> That's due to a number of things 1) the market moves so quickly that >>> controllers are discontinued within a year in some cases and 2) a >>> majority of Mixxx users are in situations where second-hand controllers >>> make the most sense for them, so those are what people create presets for. >>> (This latter point isn't a bad thing because people new to Mixxx can try >>> it with whatever controller they already have or can get inexpensively.) >> The market moving quickly is not an excuse for not keeping up. We can. >> As I mentioned above, people want the latest controllers to work with Mixxx. >> >> I think a majority of Mixxx users are in situations where second-hand >> controllers make the most sense for a few interrelated reasons. It's >> kinda a chicken-and-egg problem. Before I overhauled the wiki this >> summer, it was difficult to tell what Mixxx actually supported, which >> made it confusing and difficult to pick a controller to use with Mixxx. >> So, it's not surprising that many people would get whatever controller >> they could find cheaply and hope it worked. Also, Mixxx has a reputation >> of being just a nice thing to try for beginner DJs without having to >> invest much, so these have generally been the people who came to Mixxx. >> >> I would like to see Mixxx outgrow this reputation. I would like to see >> new DJs coming to Mixxx and staying with Mixxx. I would like to see DJs >> switching to Mixxx from proprietary DJ programs and sticking with Mixxx. >> This requires fully supporting popular middle and high grade controllers >> like the Traktor Kontrol S4 and Pioneer DDJ-SR and DDJ-SX2. With 2.0, >> Mixxx is getting close to outgrowing that reputation in terms of >> features. But I think including mappings without any quality control >> will hold it back. >> >>>> Write the documentation, and people step up to do the work. >>> While good documentation is indeed essential, our experience with many >>> Mixxx users who want to add support for a controller is that they are >>> spooked even by the idea of editing an XML file*, let alone working with >>> JavaScript, despite the extensive documentation on the wiki which was >>> available when the scripting engine was released. >>> >>> *So often that one person made a lighthearted joke about it: >>> http://downloads.mixxx.org/mess/baddudes.gif >>> >>> In short, the average Mixxx user is not a developer by any stretch and >>> has no interest in becoming one. While it's fine to have a >>> developer-friendly work flow (i.e. Github PRs) _available_ for preset >>> contributors, it cannot be required. There are already too many required >>> technical hurdles for non-developer contributors; we certainly can't >>> afford to add another. >> The XML mapping format is inadequate and any GUI that could be designed >> around it would be too. It may have made sense 8 years ago when MIDI >> controllers designed for DJing were just starting to be made and when >> the M-Audio Xponent and Vestax VCI-100 were decent controllers. But now, >> even cheap controllers like the Mixtrack Pro 3 and Pioneer DDJ-SB2 are >> complex devices designed to have multiple layers of functionality (and >> increasingly the LEDs make use of different colors). >> >> There is no good way to support such devices without a fully featured >> programming language -- unless you think Traktor's maze of mouse-driven >> menus or VirtualDJ's hacky scripting language are good solutions. I >> suspect extending the XML mapping format would bring us closer to those >> messes. I think the best way to move forward with mappings is to make it >> easier to use JavaScript well. >> >> Being free software and the only digital DJ program for GNU/Linux that >> can do anything more than vinyl control, Mixxx attracts plenty of >> technically-inclined people who could program mappings in JavaScript. >> I'm thinking of people like myself who have programmed a few little >> things here and there, may or may not have any formal training in >> programming, and probably don't know JavaScript well or at all. These >> are generally the people who have been making mappings. As evidence, >> consider that many mappings were previously scattered around the web in >> their own GitHub repository (that wasn't forked from mixxxdj/mixxx) or >> on a personal blog. For this group, learning the basics of git is not >> too much to ask. The mapping documentation should be written for this >> audience. It should go out of the way to explain some basic things about >> JavaScript and good coding practices rather than assuming the reader >> understands the example code with minimal explanation. >> >>> Remember that Mixxx users are our customers and this (like all >>> user-facing items) is a customer service issue. To that end, what the >>> average user needs most is a GUI preset creation system that can map >>> everything, jog wheels included. (I have plans to make this actually >>> happen even for HID controllers.) They are then free to share these with >>> us any way they are able, be it Github PR, forum post, E-mail >>> attachment, SD card on a carrier pigeon, etc. >> As explained above, we shouldn't expect good mappings without coding. >> There is a place for incomplete mappings. That place is the forum. But >> those mappings should not be included in Mixxx. No matter what >> disclaimers we say, if someone buys a controller and tries a mapping >> included in Mixxx but it doesn't really work, or it works in an awkward >> way, that reflects poorly on Mixxx. >> >> On that note, "Community Supported Mappings" has been a misleading term. >> A mapping author continuing to staying involved in the Mixxx community >> and supporting the mapping has been more the exception than the rule. >> Keeping mappers involved is also important for getting input on how to >> improve the mapping system. I don't think requiring mappings to go >> through code review on a GitHub pull request will totally solve this >> issue, but I think it is a step towards keeping mappers engaged. Towards >> that end, I just put a note on the Contributing Mappings wiki page >> encouraging mappers to join the mailing list. >> >>> Again, thank you for your time and interest in improving Mixxx. We >>> appreciate the occasional whip-crack to keep the documentation up to >>> stuff. (It's important for fellow developers as well as users!) >> Thanks for making the only mapping system for DJ software that uses an >> actual programming language. :) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ >> Get Mixxx, the #1 Free MP3 DJ Mixing software Today >> http://mixxx.org >> >> >> Mixxx-devel mailing list >> Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Get Mixxx, the #1 Free MP3 DJ Mixing software Today > http://mixxx.org > > > Mixxx-devel mailing list > Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Go from Idea to Many App Stores Faster with Intel(R) XDK Give your users amazing mobile app experiences with Intel(R) XDK. Use one codebase in this all-in-one HTML5 development environment. Design, debug & build mobile apps & 2D/3D high-impact games for multiple OSs. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=254741551&iu=/4140 _______________________________________________ Get Mixxx, the #1 Free MP3 DJ Mixing software Today http://mixxx.org Mixxx-devel mailing list Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel
