Just want chime in that mapping controllers in Mixxx by binding to Ctrla
callbacks and outputs directly in JS, without having to map midi signals in
XML beforehand would make for a great experience.
On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 11:35 AM, Harry van Haaren <harryhaa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 7:04 PM, Daniel Schürmann <dasch...@mixxx.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Harry,
>>
>> thank you for pointing me to ctlra_info_get_name.
>> That is a good help to locate the event on the controller.
>>
>
> Yep, and together with the layout info, it is enough to provide good UX on
> what it is, and where it is on the device.
>
>
>
>> However, I think we have the chance here to also represent the intended
>> use of a control in machine readable way
>
>
> Interestingly, my "v1" iteration of the Ctlra library worked like that.
> Human/machine readable strings, that would be interpreted between device
> and application, to attempt to provide "semantic" meaning to a control, so
> the application would "automagically" connect with it. I discussed the idea
> with a few Linux Audio developers who's opinions I regard highly (aka; they
> have years of experience), and they discouraged the idea. In *theory* it
> works really well, but then practice comes along and it just doesn't work
> as intended.
>
> For DJ controllers to DJ software, it will probably work OK. Gain, Pitch,
> Play - those have pretty obvious mapping targets. But then there's a range
> of other capabilities, that just *dont* fit, and unless the user maps them
> explicitly, its just not gonna work. For example, how to map a WiiMote to
> Mixxx; there is no "correct" or even "logical" way of mapping it. Its
> user-specific, depending on what they want to do.
>
>
> It would be just natural to define some kind of application profiles for a
>> controller, that a controller manufacturer may implement.
>> This can be linked into the OSC namespace. Just to be compatible with
>> OSC. OSC can benefit in the same way from our application profiles. And
>> when we one day have a device connected over network using OSC it can be
>> quite well wrapped and presented in Ctlra. There is no other relationship
>> between OSC and Ctlra and OSC just the shared OSC address.
>>
>> For example we can define
>>
>> "Deck X Gain profile":
>>
>> A control that is intended to control the gain of a deck.
>> Value x means lowest gain value y means highest gain and value z (centre)
>> means 0 dB.
>> OSC Address: /CTLRA/DEVICE/DECK1/GAIN
>>
>> Thats all. This is IMHO quite natural and does not effect directly the
>> API.
>>
>> For now it requires "only" an other string for each event.
>> ctlra_info_get_osc_address(). Which can default to
>> /CTLRA/DEVICE/TYPE/ID if there is no profile defined.
>>
>>
>> This solves also the LED connections:
>>
>> "Deck X Play/Pause profile":
>>
>> A control that is intended to toggle between play and pause of a deck.
>> Value x means pressed value y means released. It may feature also an
>> indicator light that can be controlled independently.
>>
>> OSC Address: /CTLRA/DEVICE/DECK1/PLAY_PAUSE
>> OSC Address: /CTLRA/DEVICE/DECK1/PLAY_PAUSE_LED
>>
>> All this is optional, but if a controller implements Application
>> Profiles, it is instantly usable with a basic function in all Ctlra enabled
>> devices. We are back in the good old midi days, where you can plug in a
>> keyboard and it just works.
>>
>> The OSC Addresses are only needed once to setup the initial mapping for a
>> direct Ctlra application and are used as OSC as communication address in
>> case of a OSC gateway.
>>
>> I see that OSC is increasingly supported by various DAW application.
>> So Ctlra will immediately benefit from it. There is no need to explain
>> the DAW and Controller manufactures: "You do not need OSC, use Ctlra".
>>
>
>> We can ask them, to consider the "Ctlra Application Profiles" on top of
>> the OSC support, to benefit from great source of instantly usable
>> controllers. This will IMHO help a lot to make Ctlra popular, and wash away
>> the impression that Ctlra is just a new concurrent standard.
>>
>
> I don't object to an application taking this route - if it wishes to map
> events to OSC, that's fine. I don't think adding some form of OSC metadata
> overlay into the plain C Ctlra API makes any sense. Unix philosophy, one
> thing, and do it right. That one thing is making hardware devices available
> under a single API, and abstracting events and feedback to be generic.
>
>
> Taking a step back, the problem we are trying to solve is to easily allow
> users to use their hardware with an application (eg: Mixxx).
>
> Say a developer (me) adds a default Ctlra map for a device (eg, the NI S2
> Mk2), and provides sane default mappings. 80% of DJs will probably be
> happy. The remaining 20%, probably want to remap a few FX controls, or have
> some buttons perform differently (sampler control instead of loops, or
> smth). For these 20%, we provide a way to re-purpose controls - the
> existing JS Mixxx infrastructure for example. Is that not a good-enough end
> goal?
>
> I see the above suggestion as the "pragmatic" path to success. Lets not
> try fix all the mapping problems, semantic usages, and OSC-DAW integration
> at once. Lets fix hardware integration, in a forward compatible way so that
> more devices can be implemented under it, and that the
> device-implementation effort is shared across manufacturers and all
> developers in the community.
>
> My 0.02$, Cheers -Harry
>
> PS: I'll kick off a new thread to discuss the Ctlra/Mixxx PR itself.
>
>
>> Am 09.07.2017 um 14:57 schrieb Harry van Haaren:
>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Daniel Schürmann <dasch...@mixxx.org
>>> <mailto:dasch...@mixxx.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Harry,
>>>
>>> > At no point to I think Ctlra will *require* also using TCC. It
>>> just so happens that they complement each other well for my
>>> use-cases.
>>>
>>> That seams to be a good approach. If the architecture allows to put
>>> Ctlra drivers into runtime loaded object files, it does not matter
>>> which compiler is used and if it turns out that TCC is the best for
>>> our needs on a platform, fine.
>>>
>>> > That proposal looks really good. It basically means, from a Ctlra
>>> POV, that Ctlra is plain old C code, and exposes
>>> generic events.
>>>
>>> No, not generic events. The Ctlra using apllications should receive
>>> a specific event.
>>>
>>>
>>> By "generic event", what I mean is a specific event type, with a
>>> specific event ID. These two combined identify one specific control item on
>>> a physical controller device. For example, a specific button (eg Play)
>>> sends a button event when pressed / released, using this struct for
>>> metadata: https://github.com/openAVproductions/openAV-Ctlra/blob/maste
>>> r/ctlra/event.h#L63
>>>
>>> Note that the name of the control is *not* included here for performance
>>> reasons. Passing strings around just isn't a good idea for performance.
>>> Ctlra provides functions to lookup the name of each event based on type/ID.
>>> I have "generic" applications (don't care about which HW controller is
>>> used) that provide fully labelled UIs showing all control names - so your
>>> use-case is covered here. (If there is an issue, we can resolve it at the
>>> Ctlra API layer, but AFAIK the API caters for the application's
>>> requirements).
>>>
>>> If you turn the gain Knob on a controller, the application should be
>>> able to now that this is the Knob labeled with "Gain" grouped for
>>> Deck A.
>>>
>>>
>>> See above paragraph - names of events are provided, based on the labels
>>> physically printed on the hardware.
>>>
>>> This might be done by a generic event + a link into a manifest file,
>>> which may also include a photo of the controller. This metada of
>>> each event should be optimized to be translated into a OSC address,
>>> this should be a mandatory part of Crtra. So we need a document like
>>> this:
>>> https://github.com/fabb/SynOSCopy/wiki
>>> <https://github.com/fabb/SynOSCopy/wiki>
>>>
>>>
>>> I see no value in *demanding* that Ctlra supports OSC, in the same way
>>> that Ctlra will not demand the use of TCC. Ctlra must be a standalone
>>> library (with only *essential* dependencies like libUSB). Any metadata
>>> should be directly related to the physical device capabilities. Mapping and
>>> adding semantic meaning to the controls is up to the application.
>>>
>>> I do not wish to include images in Ctlra - it complicates things, and is
>>> generally just un-conventional. That said, I so see value in "visually
>>> showing" users what controls are available, and what thier labels are. This
>>> has already been discussed, and a POC implemented:
>>> https://github.com/openAVproductions/openAV-Ctlra/issues/7 (note to
>>> self, I still need to cleanup and publish the branch with the POC).
>>>
>>> I feel the scope of Ctlra should not include the "semantic meaning" of
>>> controllers. This was discussed previously (there's one question at the end
>>> of the LAC talk asking exactly this), and it doesn't scale well, and only
>>> complicates things. So Ctlra will provide an Event per button
>>> press/release, with type/ID to identify the exact physical change.
>>> Interpreting the meaning of that event, and mapping it to application
>>> functionality is *not* in the scope of Ctlra.
>>>
>>> > The application can interpret those in whatever way it wants -
>>> OSC, JS/Mixxx, or however OpenAV stuff will end up doing this. It
>>> keeps Ctlra just generic events, and allows the application to solve
>>> the mapping problem in its own way. That sounds logical and a good
>>> abstraction, which is exactly what Ctlra aims for.
>>>
>>> Yes, that is right. Today in case of midi, the user has to figure
>>> out which midi key is doing what. With a Ctlra enabled controller
>>> this issue should be gone. The mapping solution can for example show
>>> the photo of the controller, and highlight the place of action.
>>> But even without the photo, the user knows exactly how to enable a
>>> knob LED, using the OSC name-space as address.
>>>
>>>
>>> The human-readable string that is provided by Ctlra library API enables
>>> the user to understand the event. For an example of the name lookup, please
>>> see here: https://github.com/openAVproductions/openAV-Ctlra/blob/maste
>>> r/examples/simple/simple.c#L51
>>>
>>>
>>> > In order to progress this idea, I'll post code up ASAP, which
>>> makes the generic Ctlra events available in a callback as
>>> part of the CtlraController class. After that, the Mixxx/JS
>>> components must be designed / worked on to fully enable Ctlra in
>>> Mixxx.
>>>
>>> Thank you :-)
>>>
>>> I think for the OCS Plug and Play stuff we just need to rethink the
>>> API a bit.
>>> I would like to do something like this
>>> https://github.com/mixxxdj/mixxx/blob/lv2_support2/src/effec
>>> ts/lv2/lv2manifest.cpp
>>> <https://github.com/mixxxdj/mixxx/blob/lv2_support2/src/effe
>>> cts/lv2/lv2manifest.cpp>
>>> in Ctlra as well.
>>> (Sorry, I am not completely though the API so this might be wrong)
>>>
>>>
>>> As above, I'm not liking the OSC semantic meaning side of things - Ctlra
>>> is a C library and provides events. Mapping (to OSC, or whatever) is up to
>>> the application. Or if there is value, somebody could create a
>>> OscApiForCtlra library - but personally I don't see that as having value at
>>> the moment.
>>>
>>> We need a kind of generic data point enumerator expression for every
>>> event, which is able to discover all controller features.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ctlra API enables this already. The ctlra_dev_info_t struct has all
>>> names of all events, and the counts of each. In the POC implementation, the
>>> size of the controller, and control position / size are available as
>>> integer values in millimeters. This enables a GUI application to "mock up"
>>> the controller, no photos / pictures involved.
>>>
>>> Every data point should have a function for examine like
>>> ctlra_dev_get_osc_namespace() and ctlra_dev_get_picture_location()
>>> Will this work? Does this fit to the ctlra goals?
>>>
>>>
>>> I feel the Ctlra API enables the events + physical device info already.
>>> Adding OSC namespaces etc above it is not it the scope of Ctlra, nor should
>>> it be in my opinion. (Due to not *demanding* applications use any
>>> particular form of mapping / interpreting events). Visually enabling
>>> controllers is achieved by providing physical layout info of the device,
>>> instead of using a photo - a much better solution IMO.
>>>
>>> Thoughts / opinions? -Harry
>>>
>>> Am 09.07.2017 um 13:18 schrieb Harry van Haaren:
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 11:21 AM, Daniel Schürmann
>>>> <dasch...@mixxx.org <mailto:dasch...@mixxx.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Harry, Hi Be,
>>>>
>>>> here some comments:
>>>>
>>>> IMHO arguing about If C or JS is easier will not lead us ahead
>>>> in this discussion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good point - apologies for the rat-hole.
>>>>
>>>> > As noted above, we can take TCC off the table for Mixxx's
>>>> use case. Personally I still love it - and it has radically
>>>> changed how I think about programming in C - but perhaps its
>>>> just not a good fit for Mixxx. I can work with that.
>>>>
>>>> I am afraid a mandatory TCC based Ctlra solution will prevent
>>>> it from being successful.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At no point to I think Ctlra will *require* also using TCC. It
>>>> just so happens that they complement each other well for my
>>>> use-cases.
>>>>
>>>> Only a solution that works nice Windows as well as on non X86
>>>> based architectures will be accepted as a new standard.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> TCC supports a variety of targets; and despite no official
>>>> releases, the git repo is pretty active:
>>>> http://repo.or.cz/w/tinycc.git
>>>>
>>>> For me, the key is here to be modular. Similar to LV2 each
>>>> driver Ctlra driver can be shipped with a source file and a
>>>> meta-data file which should contain a recipe to turn the
>>>> source file into a *.so or a dll. In a future advanced step,
>>>> the hosts Ctlra library code should be responsible to read the
>>>> recipe and do what it should be done to turn it into a binary.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure what the benefit is here - i see a pretty complex
>>>> workflow, but no ultimate gain that TCC doesn't already provide.
>>>> But I said I'd drop the TCC idea and discuss other options.
>>>>
>>>> > Lets find a better solution for novice / casual users who
>>>> don't want to compile anything.
>>>>
>>>> The compile step itself is not the issue. If we look for
>>>> example to OpenGL Shading Language, where we also have a
>>>> compiler step no one noticed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good point.
>>>>
>>>> >> Even if we have a ctlra controller in Mixxx, we need to
>>>> adapt the signals to Mixxx Control Objects using xml or js
>>>> files.
>>>>
>>>> > Why XML or JS? I see many more options, and just because we
>>>> have existing infrastructure for a similar case doesn't mean
>>>> its always the correct solution.
>>>>
>>>> Just because Mixxx is using it right now. It is IMHO not in
>>>> the responds of Ctlra to convert controller events into
>>>> application commands.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OK - then lets investigate this option more. Keep in mind that my
>>>> JS experience is limited, and that I'm not particularly familiar
>>>> with QT/Mixxx's JS engine capabilities.
>>>> I'll post a PR asap that exposes Ctlra events to Mixxx, and then
>>>> see what kind of JS magic is required on top to expose that to the
>>>> JS mapping scripts.
>>>>
>>>> > I'm still not convinced it is possible for any
>>>> point-and-click system to fully map most controllers **in a
>>>> maintainable way**. ...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is should be out of scope of Ctlra.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely yes - this is outside the scope of Ctlra - at this
>>>> point we are talking about the integration of Ctlra + Mixxx in
>>>> particular. This was noted by a few developers at the LAC too,
>>>> that device access is only a part of the problem. Providing a good
>>>> mapping mechanism is the harder part. But we need step 1 (Ctlra
>>>> device access) before step 2 (easy/powerful mappings).
>>>>
>>>> IDEA:
>>>>
>>>> Thinking of all of this again, I think this Ctlra project is a
>>>> great chance to fix some issues, existing standards have.
>>>>
>>>> * Midi: Midi is that successfully, because it is defined up to
>>>> the Application layer for a Midi-Keyboard. Reusing this for
>>>> other types of controllers works, but pushes it down to the
>>>> Presentation Layer.
>>>> * OSC: OSC fails to define the Application layer. It is
>>>> promoted to be a Midi successor, but it even has no standard
>>>> way to even transport good old midi messages. There are
>>>> approaches to fix this in some OSC namespaces, but this is
>>>> somehow stucked.
>>>>
>>>> It would be grate If we could get back to the state of
>>>> original Midi Plug-And-Play behaviour for Midi-Keyboard for
>>>> all type of controllers using Ctlra. If we do this along with
>>>> a OSC namespace for Ctlra, this will be a great benefit and
>>>> probably a very successfully.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lets see!
>>>>
>>>> On a Midi-Keyborad you know exactly which phsical key is
>>>> pressed an how just looking to the midi Message.
>>>> This can be done for Ctlra as well, I we define a message like
>>>> "Gain Knob Deck A 56 %" So a new controller will be instantly
>>>> usable for Mixxx with a basic default mapping. This is
>>>> probably not sufficient, but putting a new function on "Gain
>>>> Knob Deck A" can be done by existing mapping solutions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, simple "static" mapping schemes can be easily handled by
>>>> mapping event IDs to ControlProxy objects. As Be pointed out, the
>>>> difficult point is layering multiple functionalities over each
>>>> other in a user-workable way.
>>>>
>>>> I have these Architectures in mind:
>>>>
>>>> OpenAV setup:
>>>>
>>>> HID-Controller
>>>> V
>>>> Ctlra Driver
>>>> V
>>>> Cltra Lib
>>>> V
>>>> C Mapping
>>>> V
>>>> OpenAV App
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mixxx setup:
>>>>
>>>> HID-Controller
>>>> V
>>>> Ctlra Driver
>>>> V
>>>> Cltra Lib
>>>> V
>>>> Controller Proxy
>>>> V
>>>> XML / *js mapping
>>>> V
>>>> Mixxx engine
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gnereic OSC setup:
>>>>
>>>> HID-Controller
>>>> V
>>>> Ctlra Driver
>>>> V
>>>> Cltra Lib
>>>> V
>>>> OSC Wrapper (process)
>>>> V
>>>> UDP/TCP
>>>> V
>>>> OSC to OSC mapper
>>>> V
>>>> UDP/TCP
>>>> V
>>>> OSC enabled DAW
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What do you think?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That proposal looks really good. It basically means, from a Ctlra
>>>> POV, that Ctlra is plain old C code, and exposes generic events.
>>>> The application can interpret those in whatever way it wants -
>>>> OSC, JS/Mixxx, or however OpenAV stuff will end up doing this. It
>>>> keeps Ctlra just generic events, and allows the application to
>>>> solve the mapping problem in its own way. That sounds logical and
>>>> a good abstraction, which is exactly what Ctlra aims for.
>>>>
>>>> In order to progress this idea, I'll post code up ASAP, which
>>>> makes the generic Ctlra events available in a callback as part of
>>>> the CtlraController class. After that, the Mixxx/JS components
>>>> must be designed / worked on to fully enable Ctlra in Mixxx.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for all the input - we seem to be converging on a solution,
>>>> great! -Harry
>>>>
>>>> Am 09.07.2017 um 06:52 schrieb Be:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Harry,
>>>>> I read the paper for the presentation at LAC 2017 that you
>>>>> linked on IRC:
>>>>> http://musinf.univ-st-etienne.fr/lac2017/pdfs/01_C_E_137795.
>>>>> pdf
>>>>> <http://musinf.univ-st-etienne.fr/lac2017/pdfs/01_C_E_137795
>>>>> .pdf>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Going along with what I mentioned in my previous post, I do
>>>>> not think Ctlra should be aware of the "userdata". IMO that
>>>>> should be left to the application and its scripting
>>>>> environment.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 07/08/2017 08:36 PM, Be wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 07/08/2017 06:51 PM, Harry van Haaren wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3. The programming language. It is a lot easier to find
>>>>>>> someone who
>>>>>>> knows JavaScript, or at least kinda knows JavaScript
>>>>>>> enough to get
>>>>>>> by for a small project, than it is to find someone who
>>>>>>> knows C. For
>>>>>>> people with minimal or no prior programming experience,
>>>>>>> higher level
>>>>>>> languages are much easier to learn.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Surely anybody somewhat proficient in JS can figure out
>>>>>>> what this (link below) does?? Programming is programming -
>>>>>>> logical thinking. I don't think that the C code there is
>>>>>>> "harder" than achieving the same in JS. Keep in mind we're
>>>>>>> not asking people to do pointer-magic here - its basic
>>>>>>> arithmetic, and calling a functions.
>>>>>>> https://github.com/openAVproductions/openAV-Ctlra/blob/maste
>>>>>>> r/examples/vegas_mode/z1.c#L45
>>>>>>> <https://github.com/openAVproductions/openAV-Ctlra/blob/mast
>>>>>>> er/examples/vegas_mode/z1.c#L45>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> C is more difficult to learn than JavaScript. There are a
>>>>>> lot of details in that code that you simply don't have to
>>>>>> think or know about with JavaScript. To a novice developer
>>>>>> who knows nothing about C, they'd have to answer these
>>>>>> questions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > if(e->slider.id <http://slider.id> ==
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NI_KONTROL_Z1_SLIDER_LEFT_FADER) {
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is the difference between "->" and "."?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > uint32_t iter = (int)((d->volume+0.05) * 7.f);
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. What is a uint32_t? Why should I use that instead of a
>>>>>> different number type?
>>>>>> 2. What is that "(int)" doing?
>>>>>> 3. Why is there a ".f" after the "7"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's just the tip of the iceberg of understanding a few
>>>>>> lines of code. Fully mapping controllers requires
>>>>>> considerably more complex logic than that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, I think it would make more sense to expose Ctlra to
>>>>>>> Mixxx's
>>>>>>> existing JavaScript environment for controller mapping.
>>>>>>> There would
>>>>>>> only need to be two capabilities added for this to work:
>>>>>>> 1. Scripts would be able to register JavaScript
>>>>>>> callback functions
>>>>>>> that would be called when particular Ctlra events are
>>>>>>> passed to Mixxx.
>>>>>>> 2. Scripts would need to have a way to send output
>>>>>>> messages to
>>>>>>> Ctlra. There should be a way to freeze/unfreeze the
>>>>>>> sending of
>>>>>>> output messages so many outputs could be updated
>>>>>>> simultaneously in a
>>>>>>> single HID packet.
>>>>>>> I have written a proposal for how to do this with MIDI:
>>>>>>> https://mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/registering_midi_input_handl
>>>>>>> ers_from_javascript
>>>>>>> <https://mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/registering_midi_input_hand
>>>>>>> lers_from_javascript>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/registering_midi_input_hand
>>>>>>> lers_from_javascript>
>>>>>>> <https://mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/registering_midi_input_hand
>>>>>>> lers_from_javascript>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It would be great if we could create JS APIs that are
>>>>>>> almost
>>>>>>> identical for MIDI and Ctlra.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm still not sold on the idea of wrapping all of Ctlra up
>>>>>>> in JS callbacks and then exposing it to Mixxx. Its
>>>>>>> possible, but I fail to see why this should be the
>>>>>>> holy-grail of how mappings should work. I should probably
>>>>>>> do up a design-doc or video on how I think *eventually* the
>>>>>>> Ctlra / Mixxx UX for mapping a controller would look: and
>>>>>>> if I can figure out the technical parts, it will be pretty
>>>>>>> revolutionary in how it enables novice users to create
>>>>>>> unique mappings. Punch line is to present the functionality
>>>>>>> (multi-layered bindings) in a way that is easily consumed
>>>>>>> by "ordinary" humans, and provide a doc + video explaining
>>>>>>> it. Give me a few weeks - some POC Ctlra + Mixxx code
>>>>>>> first, then onwards to the exact mapping UX.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm still not convinced it is possible for any
>>>>>> point-and-click system to fully map most controllers *in a
>>>>>> maintainable way*. Years ago, device specific hacks were
>>>>>> added to Mixxx in C++ to make the XML system work with MIDI
>>>>>> signals for jog wheels. Someone please correct me if I am
>>>>>> wrong, but my understanding is that the JS engine was added
>>>>>> to avoid the need for such compiled-in device specific
>>>>>> hacks. Almost all mappings submitted for inclusion in Mixxx
>>>>>> recently have been done mostly or entirely in JS. Traktor
>>>>>> has an elaborate point-and-click mapping system and users
>>>>>> complain how awful it is to work with (refer to
>>>>>> https://djworx.com/what-do-you-want-from-traktor-pro/
>>>>>> <https://djworx.com/what-do-you-want-from-traktor-pro/> for
>>>>>> example).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have previously thought about designing a GUI that used
>>>>>> tabs to organize different layers of functionality. But this
>>>>>> would break down quickly for handling the interaction of
>>>>>> multiple layers and create a mess even worse than Traktor's
>>>>>> mapping GUI. For example, consider a cue button that uses
>>>>>> the cue_default ControlObject normally but start_stop while
>>>>>> a shift button is held. You could define a layer that the
>>>>>> unshifted button belongs to and another layer that the
>>>>>> shifted button belongs to. Okay, easy enough. Now you want
>>>>>> to make that side of the controller able to be toggled
>>>>>> between deck 1 & deck 3. How would you accomplish this? With
>>>>>> a simple layering system, you could create 4 different layers:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Deck 1 unshifted
>>>>>> Deck 1 shifted
>>>>>> Deck 3 unshifted
>>>>>> Deck 3 shifted
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then you'd need to copy & paste all those 4 layers for the
>>>>>> other side of the controller with decks 2 & 4! It would be
>>>>>> possible to hack support for toggling decks into Mixxx so
>>>>>> the mapping could deal with a virtual deck and Mixxx would
>>>>>> maintain the state of which deck is active, but that would
>>>>>> only handle this specific use case. And you'd still need to
>>>>>> copy & paste for the left & right sides of the controller.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What if I want pushing a button to use the beatloop_activate
>>>>>> ControlObject when no loop is active but use reloop_toggle
>>>>>> when a loop is active? I'd need to create a layer for a loop
>>>>>> being enabled and a layer for no loop enabled, then somehow
>>>>>> tell Mixxx to switch between them when that state changes.
>>>>>> Then I'd have to duplicate both those layers for deck 1 &
>>>>>> deck 3. Now I want pressing that button to act differently
>>>>>> when shift is pressed -- and act differently depending on
>>>>>> whether a loop is active. When shift is pressed, I want to
>>>>>> use reloop_toggle with no loop active and reloop_andstop
>>>>>> with a loop active. With a GUI layering system, I'd need
>>>>>> layers for:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Deck 1, loop disabled, no shift
>>>>>> Deck 1, loop disabled, shift
>>>>>> Deck 1, loop enabled, no shift
>>>>>> Deck 1, loop enabled, shift
>>>>>> Deck 3, loop disabled, no shift
>>>>>> Deck 3, loop disabled, shift
>>>>>> Deck 3, loop enabled, no shift
>>>>>> Deck 3, loop enabled, shift
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And again copy and paste for decks 2 & 4. Now there are 16
>>>>>> layers for pushing this button! What if you wanted to remap
>>>>>> it? Maintaining even this example would be a pain, and
>>>>>> that's just one component of the controller. Programming an
>>>>>> entire mapping this would would be awful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also consider how you could implement
>>>>>> https://mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/standard_effects_mapping
>>>>>> <https://mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/standard_effects_mapping>
>>>>>> for the Kontrol X1, S2, S4, and S5 with such a system.
>>>>>> Again, you could hack all that logic into the C++ side of
>>>>>> Mixxx like the deck toggling case, but then what would you
>>>>>> do to implement something like the effects mapping for the
>>>>>> Pioneer DDJ-SB2:
>>>>>> https://mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/pioneer_ddj-sb2#effects
>>>>>> <https://mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/pioneer_ddj-sb2#effects>
>>>>>> (particularly the Mixxx 2.1 mapping).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This video talks about the uselessness of visual diagramming
>>>>>> languages like UML, and I think much of what is said about
>>>>>> visual diagramming languages in this applies to programming
>>>>>> with a GUI as well:
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_SvuUYQ5Fo
>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_SvuUYQ5Fo>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That said, if you have revolutionary ideas for how to design
>>>>>> a GUI for mapping controllers that could actually handle all
>>>>>> the complexity above and not be a huge pain to work with,
>>>>>> please share. I'd love to be proven wrong... but I think
>>>>>> it's more likely that you'd waste time that could be better
>>>>>> spent making Mixxx do other cool things or writing a new
>>>>>> OpenAV application.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for your input again - good points raised. -Harry
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 07/06/2017 04:57 PM, Harry van Haaren wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First of all - this is my first post to the
>>>>>>> Mixxx-devel list, so
>>>>>>> a brief intro is in order;
>>>>>>> I'm Harry van Haaren, developer of the OpenAV audio
>>>>>>> software,
>>>>>>> bit of a music/tech/linux head :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've recently been working on improving controller
>>>>>>> support in
>>>>>>> Linux audio land, in particular
>>>>>>> what I call "modern USB HID" controller devices
>>>>>>> (think DJ
>>>>>>> controllers like Akai/NI/Abletons range).
>>>>>>> I've developed the Ctlra library as OpenAV, which
>>>>>>> provides
>>>>>>> access to these hardware devices
>>>>>>> on Linux. The library allows hotplug and various
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> "advanced" features like accessing
>>>>>>> screens on devices.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd like to integrate Ctlra into Mixxx - to provide
>>>>>>> access to
>>>>>>> hardware currently not available
>>>>>>> to Linux users, and also to provide hotplug support
>>>>>>> to those
>>>>>>> controllers. I've created a blueprint
>>>>>>> on Launchpad[1], and written an introduction on
>>>>>>> Ctlra and how I
>>>>>>> propose to integrate it in Mixxx[2].
>>>>>>> Finally, there is a documentation page on what
>>>>>>> Ctlra itself
>>>>>>> achieves here[3], and the source is here[4].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you have an interest in hotplug of controllers,
>>>>>>> controller
>>>>>>> support or hardware on Linux,
>>>>>>> do have a read of the wiki page and others, and I'd
>>>>>>> appreciate
>>>>>>> your input on the ideas!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for all your efforts on Mixxx so far,
>>>>>>> onwards and upwards!
>>>>>>> -Harry of OpenAV
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>>> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/mixxx/+spec/ctlra-controlle
>>>>>>> r-support
>>>>>>> <https://blueprints.launchpad.net/mixxx/+spec/ctlra-controll
>>>>>>> er-support>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://blueprints.launchpad.net/mixxx/+spec/ctlra-controll
>>>>>>> er-support>
>>>>>>> <https://blueprints.launchpad.net/mixxx/+spec/ctlra-controll
>>>>>>> er-support>
>>>>>>> [2]
>>>>>>> https://www.mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/ctlra_support
>>>>>>> <https://www.mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/ctlra_support>
>>>>>>> <https://www.mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/ctlra_support>
>>>>>>> <https://www.mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/ctlra_support>
>>>>>>> [3] http://openavproductions.com/doc/ctlra.html
>>>>>>> <http://openavproductions.com/doc/ctlra.html>
>>>>>>> <http://openavproductions.com/doc/ctlra.html>
>>>>>>> <http://openavproductions.com/doc/ctlra.html>
>>>>>>> [4]
>>>>>>> https://github.com/openAVproductions/openAV-ctlra
>>>>>>> <https://github.com/openAVproductions/openAV-ctlra>
>>>>>>> <https://github.com/openAVproductions/openAV-ctlra>
>>>>>>> <https://github.com/openAVproductions/openAV-ctlra>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> http://www.openavproductions.com
>>>>>>> <http://www.openavproductions.com>
>>>>>>> <http://www.openavproductions.com>
>>>>>>> <http://www.openavproductions.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> ------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the
>>>>>>> world's most
>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>>>>>>> http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Get Mixxx, the #1 Free MP3 DJ Mixing software Today
>>>>>>> http://mixxx.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mixxx-devel mailing list
>>>>>>> Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
>>>>>>> <mailto:Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
>>>>>>> <mailto:Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel
>>>>>>> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel>
>>>>>>> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel>
>>>>>>> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> ------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the
>>>>>>> world's most
>>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>>>>>>> http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Get Mixxx, the #1 Free MP3 DJ Mixing software Today
>>>>>>> http://mixxx.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mixxx-devel mailing list
>>>>>>> Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
>>>>>>> <mailto:Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
>>>>>>> <mailto:Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel
>>>>>>> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel>
>>>>>>> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel>
>>>>>>> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> http://www.openavproductions.com
>>>>>>> <http://www.openavproductions.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> ------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's
>>>>>> most
>>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Get Mixxx, the #1 Free MP3 DJ Mixing software Today
>>>>>> http://mixxx.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mixxx-devel mailing list
>>>>>> Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>>>> <mailto:Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel
>>>>>> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Get Mixxx, the #1 Free MP3 DJ Mixing software Today
>>>>> http://mixxx.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mixxx-devel mailing list
>>>>> Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>>> <mailto:Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel
>>>>> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Get Mixxx, the #1 Free MP3 DJ Mixing software Today
>>>> http://mixxx.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mixxx-devel mailing list
>>>> Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>> <mailto:Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net>
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel
>>>> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> http://www.openavproductions.com <http://www.openavproductions.com>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> http://www.openavproductions.com
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> http://www.openavproductions.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Get Mixxx, the #1 Free MP3 DJ Mixing software Today
> http://mixxx.org
>
>
> Mixxx-devel mailing list
> Mixxx-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mixxx-devel
>
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