On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Gunther Birznieks wrote: > OK, I learned mod_perl, now where are my hot chicks! :)
no, no, you have to pledge the frat! > I think a UI tool would help a bit, but it wouldn't > necessarily solve the hard part of mod_perl which is the > lack of Interpreter cleanup between invocations. PHP and > ASP clear their variables at the start so it seems > harder for applications to overwrite each other and > cause weird subtle bugs. > > To some degree, the nature of mod_perl "feels like" it > makes it harder. true, altho it can be said that persistent state is part of the nature of server programming, and whether you use a tool to generate an app or code it all by hand, you have to learn to exist according to that nature. you can certainly write php code that scopes its variables properly, uses disk- and shmem-based configuration and persistence mechanisms rather than global variables, etc. but you don't have to, cos php bends over backwards to make the world a very forgiving place. i think that best practices should be enforced by the environment. i don't think it's inconsistent to create tools that make a developer's job "easier" (enabling him to speed up the implementation lifecycle) and that also enforce best practices. > A point to note... even though we give out free Perl and > Java applications, we feel that even our own config > files are large and therefore daunting for beginners so > we have been doing R&D to come up with a web interface > to create config files for MVC based web apps. A UI is > not what we want because we'd like people to go through > the wizard and then be able to download a pre-packaged > app. web and desktop uis are all guis, right? hell, emacs jde is an ide/gui. it shouldn't be a huge technical challenge to design an application that can have multiple types of gui layered onto it. i built my last little project exactly that way - with a web interface and a command line interface. mvc helped immensely with that. > I Think making things "easier" is always a "noble" > effort but it's not always clear until you try, what is > truly easier. 1 size doesn't usually fit all. Many peple > like IDEs, many people hate them... yah. i don't really feel very comfortable in them myself. i wasn't suggesting that i was going to build this tool myself; i just thought i'd share the idea. because given the number of gui tools that exist, and the testimony of users, it's clear that at last some people find those tools useful. subject line aside, the idea/opinion that really got me in this thread was "mod_perl is not for less/non experienced programmers". that may be the reality today, but it doesn't have to be by nature. it's like we were talking about on #modperl yesterday. somebody wondered why php applications tend to sport prettier/cleaner/better ui's than perl applications. i think it's cos the php community is more design oriented, specifically because the environment is so conducive to less experienced programmers getting stuff done. if you were a designer sitting down to do your first application, which would you choose - php or perl+mason/tt/whatever? you can go to php.net and see a comprehensive searchable manual of all core apis. you don't have to install anything to be able to send an email or connect to a database. you don't have to look at many web sites - just one (maybe two, if you consult phpbuilder for tips and tricks). you can store data in a web session with 2 function calls. you can reasonably make a dynamic page within 30 seconds of your admin telling you that php is installed in the web server. contrast that with what's available for mod_perl, mason, tt, etc. all well documented, but at a lower level technically. you have to ask your admin to install DBI and MIME-tools (or figure out how to install them into your home dir). you have to figure out how to cause registry scripts or mason pages to be executed (and you have to install mason). you have to write wrapper code to rig up a session framework (and you have to install session modules). etc. the bar is higher for mod_perl and friends. you have to read and understand many more concepts in order to make a hello world web page. you can't be a 9th level designer/1st level coder.
