Wow! I used to think MOPO was kind of boring. But lately I have seen some genuine excitement. John Reid loses a little money as a result of Paypal policies. He warns the MOPO faithful; I sympathize with his troubles and post a little story of my own to further illustrate the perils of Paypal. All of a sudden we've got Fedex vs. UPS; We've got Paypal vs. [well paypal sucks but nothing competes]; and I land myself on the shitlist of the wicked framestress of the west (the crippling consequence of publicly calling a good customer an honest business person). All the meanwhile Eugene Hughes emerges with perhaps the most eloquent piece of literature the hobby has ever seen. If we can keep up the pace, maybe I'll get back into the poster business full time!
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Fedex pickups: At this point I am unsure of the name of the Fedex software we were using at the time of the transaction in question. "Online Shipping Manager"... maybe. You punch in the address and the service desired; it spits out the label; you slap it on the package (or in the pouch for international); you hand the packages to the driver and he runs off with them. End of story. No on-site scanning; no copies / leaflets of the waybill (there were none...just one label); no manifests; no driver signatures / information. No nothing. No paper trail. It is nice to hear that most of you seem to have a better system in place. But where I worked at the time: ever since the introduction of the Powership program (1996?) that was the way it went. We had been through 3 completely different Fedex systems/softwares; none of them had ever given us the opportunity for proof of pickup.
My Fedex grievances otherwise: Loss: They have lost two outgoing packages of mine indefinitely; they have misplaced two outgoing packages of mine for at least 2 weeks. They have lost one incoming package of mine indefinitely. Delivery: "The World on Time" ranks up there with Fox News' "Fair and Balanced" in terms of ludicrous slogans. A generous estimate would have 9 of 10 Fedex Express shipments making it on time. I don't think that really cuts in it today's day and age. Then, when they are late half the time it is 2 or 3 days late. Dirt: ALL of our incoming Fedex Express packages arrive filthy. Covered in heavy dust and dirt. Disgusting. Dropboxes: They had the great idea of putting pickup indicators on the drop boxes. I really patted Fedex on the back for that one; until I discover they were triggered by timers, not the actual pickup of the dropbox. Rural Fuel Surcharge: This was a year ago...god knows what it is now. $1 fuel surcharge per package picked up. So ten Fedex envelopes... $10 fuel surcharge. One 50 pound box... $1 fuel surchage. Makes a lot of sense. Efficiency: They were so concerned about fuel they figured it'd be a good idea to send EVERY Express package to Memphis regardless of origin or destination. Refusal to pickup in moderate winter weather. Fedex Home Delivery: what were they thinking?!?
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My conclusions on couriers otherwise:
Domestically: There is no better value than UPS Ground. The package always get there (on time too); the rate is reasonable; the Insurance rates are reasonable. UPS has never lost a package on me. However, they are definately the roughest on packages. I have had a few packages damaged. You have to package very very well with UPS.
Internationally: United States Postal Service Airmail. Register it if it's valuable. It always get there; registered or not; I've never had a problem shipping this way. USPS domestically is also unflinchingly reliable; but gets expensive when you start insuring things.
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Dear Sue: You asked a question; and I answered it. "I would certainly ask Abe, if the shoe was on the other foot, wouldn't you do exactly what Helmut did?" Under the exact circumstances, no, I would not have done what Helmut did. I explained my reasoning in vast detail only because you put forth assumptions that were 100% incorrect. "I would assume that Abe would have some kind of paperwork to show the shipment, so he could prove to Fedex that it was indeed shipped and certainly the item would have had a declared value of $800 which if you could provide paperwork to verify the shipment, even if the tracking number wasn't showing up in the computer system, Fedex would have had to pay for that shipment." No, there was no paperwork. There was no declared value of $800. That is the situation I was put into solely as a result of buyer's special requests which I fulfilled in good faith. That is what I was up against. Furthermore I find it insultingly suggestive that because I didn't have the paperwork you mistakenly assumed to exist that I didn't ship the package when I said I did. I had at that point established a history of delivering my goods. I have no history of not delivering. So I don't really understand why you would question my word as to when I shipped a package. My word is my word. If I told someone I sent a package; I sent the package. Helmut can confirm that the date and the tracking # on the package reflected exactly my reported time of shipment and tracking #.
With regards to this statement: "please let me know your ebay name so I make sure to never buy anything from you if this is the way you talk about good customers after the fact." I've gone back and looked at my posts... I can't figure out what you're talking about. I can't find an instance where I said anything bad about Helmut or any other customer. Maybe you can help me out on that??? I kept his name out of it; he came forward and put his name on it. At that point I wanted to get all the facts on table to be fair to both parties. I really hope you'll bid with me if you find something you want, but if I still come off as out of line to you: my ebay id is "(abe)" --- I wouldn't really worry about it though; I don't usually list anything worthwhile anyhow.
Regards, abe
From: Susan Heim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Susan Heim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MOPO] PayPal (and Fedex) = recipe for disaster Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:21:05 -0800
Dear Abe, I have to disagree with your facts. I ship Fedex everyday and ship about 200 boxes a week. Not only does the driver scan the first box of the shipment, but I print a daily manifest that he signs and dates with a time. My daily manifest has a tracking number and all the customer information on it. I don't know Helmut, other than from the group, but he has shipped me items to frame for customers and they have arrived without a hitch using Fedex. In addition, please let me know your ebay name so I make sure to never buy anything from you if this is the way you talk about good customers after the fact.
Sue Heim www.hollywoodposterframe.com<http://www.hollywoodposterframe.com/>
----- Original Message ----- From: Abe Allen<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [MOPO] PayPal (and Fedex) = recipe for disaster
Let me try to air out the facts in their entirety.
Unlike UPS, when shipping Fedex there is never any documentation that they physically picked-up the package. On the UPS Worldship software you have to do an End of Day close out, and it prints out a Pickup Summary, which say the date and how many packages you have. The UPS driver has to sign that Pickup Summary before he leaves with your packages. Fedex has no such system; they just show up, pickup the packages, and go on their way. I have never seen a Fedex driver scan a package as he picks it up. It is my understanding that they are not scanned until they reach the depot. Maybe they do it differently in Europe; but that is how it is here.
And, also at the request of Helmut, I had declared the value at less than $100 if I remember correctly. Presumably, this was to save him money on duties. So the only documentation I had was a waybill that I filled out (and was not validated by any employee of Fedex); and a customs invoice with a declared val of maybe $35 or $50. There was absolutely no insurance for me.
So as a result of the ineptitude of the buyer's courier of special request, the conspiracy to be dishonest with customs (which benefits only the buyer), and Paypal's buyer protection program, I would have been stuck holding the bag in the event Fedex lost the package indefinately. Under those circumstance's if I was wearing Helmut's shoe, I would have given the seller the benefit of the doubt. By that point in time, I had accumulated hundreds of poster related unique positive feedbacks on eBay (many of them on high value items). I have never swindled anyone out of money within or without this hobby, and I had the feedback to prove it. I didn't think there was any reason for me to be considered potentially untrustworthy. I think he was worried because it took me 6 days to email him the tracking #. There was a viable reason for that which was explained, and I did finally get him the tracking #. Whether or not that delay warranted a refund is debatable I guess.
The fact that I went out of my way to accomodate Helmut, the fact that his carrier fucked up big time, and the fact that I was on the brink of paying for it really really really pissed me off. I explained all this to him; he asked for a refund; and I declined on those grounds. Then he filed the claim with Paypal... my money was gone... I found that to be unfair; my hands were tied there was nothing I could do.
To Helmut: I know we've had no correspondence since this incident. I hope there is no bad blood. It is obvious that we are both honest business people. You paid for the poster; I delivered the poster. We had a bumpy ride - but it worked out OK in the end (and thank god for that... b/c I'd probably hate your guts if they never found the package!). Who knows, maybe we can even do business again someday.
Moral of the story: a) Don't trust anything with Fedex... this is one of my numerous Fedex horror stories. b) you better be feeling lucky if you're going to accept paypal. i for the most part have been lucky. As JR pointed out there are ways try to protect yourself... but that's a hell of a lot of work.
ok i think thats it.
love, abe
p.s. did i mention i hate fedex?
>From: Susan Heim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> >Reply-To: Susan Heim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [MOPO] PayPal >Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:51:39 -0800 > >Re: [MOPO] PayPalHey all, > I can certainly see both sides of the coin here, but I have to say, I >would have done exactly what Helmut did. The problem is that the Fedex >tracking number was nowhere in the system to follow. If I had never done >business with Abe as a seller before, I would have been worried that I was >being taken. I have customers that have their own accounts with Fedex and >UPS and, while I use Fedex, if they ask me to send it on their UPS account, >I obliged them. If the package disappears and there is no record on the >system of me having shipped the item, I would be extremely frustrated, but >could certainly understand the customers skepticism. I would assume that >Abe would have some kind of paperwork to show the shipment, so he could >prove to Fedex that it was indeed shipped and certainly the item would have >had a declared value of $800 which if you could provide paperwork to verify >the shipment, even if the tracking number wasn't showing up in the computer >system, Fedex would have had to pay for that shipment. I would certainly >ask Abe, if the shoe was on the other foot, wouldn't you do exactly what >Helmut did? > > In this case, everything worked out. Unfortunately it doesn't always >and sometimes it is just the cost of doing business. That's why there is >insurance of all kinds available. > >Sue Heim
>www.hollywoodposterframes.com<http://www.hollywoodposterframes.com/<http://www.hollywoodposterframes.com/>> >(800) 463-2994 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Helmut Hamm<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 9:34 AM > Subject: Re: [MOPO] PayPal > > > I was Abe's buyer in the story below and while things basically happened >the way he describes them there is one important detail missing: > > > When I tried to track the package online, the tracking number he had >given was "unknown" to the Fedex system. > > > In the days to follow I spoke to several Fedex employees, and the bottom >line was there was no record THAT THEY HAD EVEN PICKED IT UP. > Fedex normally scans anything immediately upon pickup, so this was most >unusual. > > > So there I was: With $800 at stake (and no chance to ever see any of it >back once Paypal's "30 days to file a complaint" were over), a seller I had >never dealt with before and didn't know anything about, who couldn't show a >valid tracking number, yet denied any responsibility. > > > What was I supposed to do? What would you have done? > > > Fortunately, after three weeks the poster showed up out of nowhere and >of course I dropped the Paypal claim immediately and he got his money. > > > Again, if you were me, what would you have done in this situation? > > > Helmut > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Abe Allen<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> > To:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 12:17 > Subject: Re: [MOPO] Paypal > > > Indeed. It was over a year ago when I sold a poster for around $800 >to > someone in Germany. The buyer asked that I ship the item via Fedex >(I > usually just ship via Airmail). So I obliged by shipping it Fedex, >which of > course had a tracking number. Only problem was, Fedex lost the >package for > three weeks! I had the tracking number.... but that doesn't matter >to > Paypal; you have to have a tracking # that proves the package was >delivered. > So if the courier fucks up, the seller bites the bullet. Amazingly, >the > buyer then insisted that I refund his money (remember it was his >courier of > choice that caused the problem). I told him: not my problem; your >courier > lost it; sorry. He filed the complaint with paypal, and they took >the $800 > out of my account promptly. There was nothing I could do even though >I could > prove that I shipped it. You can't talk to anybody at paypal; you >can't > plead your case; you can't write them a letter; it's either a >tracking # > that shows delivered or bye bye cash! Fedex found the package 3 >weeks after > I shipped it, finally delivered it; and the buyer at least had the >decency > to drop the claim; so I ended up getting my money. I have never been >more > pissed off in regards to an eBay transaction. > > -abe > > > Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com<http://www.filmfan.com/> > ___________________________________________________________________ > How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List > Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L > The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. > > Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com<http://www.filmfan.com/> > ___________________________________________________________________ > How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List > > Send a message addressed to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L > > The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. >
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