I was responding, amoung other things, to the following statements. But please don't say I am misinterpreting or trying to read between the lines. The statements are quite blunt, and I don;t see how they can be misinterpreted or misread.
>>JR has made one of the most salient comparisons he could have when he
compared high prices in comics to be a death knell for the ordinary
collector.<<
compared high prices in comics to be a death knell for the ordinary
collector.<<
What are you saying about "the ordinary collector" here? They only go for the high end books and if they get too pricey they are no longer collecting?
>>Today comics & comic book art are in my own opinion the most overpriced
hobbies there are and anything good is beyond the average collector in
price.<< ...
hobbies there are and anything good is beyond the average collector in
price.<< ...
How does one interpret the statement "anything good is beyond the average collector in price."
>>But they also froze out anyone making under $100,000 a year from becoming a
serious collector. <<
serious collector. <<
Again, I am a serious collector but I give a rat's posterior about the high priced slabbed books. The books I buy are from $15 - $300 each.
I will be the first to apologize and admit my error but the average comic book collectgor is not being properly represented in this argument.
Thank you.
Pov
Richard Halegua Comic Art <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Richard Halegua Comic Art <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Mike
I made no allusions to any of the issues you comment on.
I made very specific comments about the rise of prices & the dangers they
pose and never did I say that anyone who collects vgfn books are not
serious collectors. I made very specific arguments about slabbed comics &
high prices that freeze out players like yourself from the higher echelon
which is in no way a commentary that you aren't a serious collector. As a
matter of fact, the things you point out are entirely extrapolations by
yourself. You shouldn't read between the lines..... as there isn't anything
between the lines that I wrote.
Rich=============================
At 10:55 AM 12/20/04, Michael Spampinato wrote:
>These two posts, I have to say, are so skewed in pereception I really
>cannot believe it. Do you all really think the onl! y comic book collector
>who should be seen as a serious collector only buys high end books?
>
>First, most collectors (and they are REAL collectors) do not buy slabbed
>books, nor do they seek out Action 1 or Spidey 1. They have real
>interests, the way a real collector does, in anything from Walt Disney C&S
>to war comics to good girl comics to whatever. They don't buy slabbed
>books ecause they want to read their comics. And they ARE in the majority.
>They just don;t get all the media hype.
>
>I collect pre-code horror comics and Bronze Age DC/Charlton comics.
>Unslabbed. In grades ranging from VG-VF for the precode (a few a bit
>better) and NM - NM+ for the Bronze Age. Does this mean I am not a serious
>comic book collector? Or that I am in the comic collector low-life club
>because I am not seeking an Action 1, an AF15 or a TOS39 in high grade? As
>I said, the majority of co! llectors are just like me. They are not
>interested in slabbed books. They collect a wide range of ages and genres
>that do not include the few issues that have been mentioned to make a
>point. I guess we really ARE are low life collectors and not real ones.
>
>::sarcasm on:: But I guess that is true of poster collectors too. I do not
>consider ANYONE a serious poster collector unless they are interested in
>original Universal Horror 1-sheets from the Laemmle era. Anyone who cannot
>afford a Dracula, Mummy or Frankenstein original release piece obviously
>is now in the bottom tier of collecting. I pity them all. ::sarcasm off::
>
>The thing that gets me the most is that many of the points trying to be
>made here ignore the reality of the majority of the comic book collecting
>world in favor of making it look like only a few untra-high end pieces are
>the only things worth acquiring. I don't! get it. I am especially surprised
>at Rich, who I would assume has an understanding of the total comic market
>beyond the hype one reads in the Wall Street Journal or Forbes.
>
>Pov
>Michael Spampinato
>
>
>Richard Halegua Comic Art <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>JR has made one of the most salient comparisons he could have when he
>compared high prices in comics to be a death knell for the ordinary
>collector. While comic dealers and others may trumpet how good high prices
>are, anyone must realize the dangers they pose to any hobby.For
>instance, in an economy where 50% of the population makes less than
>$25,000 a year, you would have to wonder how that half could possibly
>afford to collect anything, and you have to go all the way up to the top 5%
>of the american population to get to $50,000 a year. You must also remember
>that the average cost of living in any good sized city! in America is
>$48,000 it doesn't leave very much for spending money without sacrificing
>something else and while most collectors would happily sacrifice eating to
>get that comic book or poster, if that goes on too long.. one more
>! collector gone!
>
>Back in the middle 80's I was on the way to becoming the top dealer of
>original comic art & pulp illustration in the world. Only Russ Cochran was
>on my level. Well as time went by, I only began selling more & more
>expensive items. So in 1986 I took in $20,000 at San Diego Comicon (SDC
>from here on ) with about 400 customers. at SDC in 1990 I took in $35K, but
>with only 150 customers. In 1992 I did $40K with less than 100 and in 1995
>I took in over $50K, but with only 40 buyers as they were the only ones who
>could afford my stuff. Not only that, I was finding I could not afford to
>buy collections anymore as the prices had become ! so high & the margin was
>getting so low that I was going to have to start taking in almost
>$1,000,000 a year to make the same profits I made in 1989 one $350K. In
>other words I would have to work 3times as hard to make no extra. But wait
>there's more, at the same time several bigtime collec! tor's had either
>stopped collecting, or personal issues (like divorce, loss of good job etc)
>removed these top customers from the field resulting in difficulty
>achieving the same high price were getting for things like Flash Gordon
>sunday pages by Alex Raymond (up to $50K in 1991, same pages sold in 1996
>for $15) and taking losses on those items to move them out, or be forced to
>hold them for 10 years to sell which is a negative.
>
>Today comics & comic book art are in my own opinion the most overpriced
>hobbies there are and anything good is beyond the average collector in
>price. If you want ! to complete a collection of Spiderman in fine condition
>(which is the minimum condition for investment) it would cost you soemthing
>in the range of $150,000. A near mint, slabbed collection in 9.0 or better
>could get to $1,000,000. How many of you wish to be at the mercy of such a
>market where it's possible the only collector for that item at that price
>actually dictates the market price instead of you as the seller and he is
>very simply the ONLY collector at that level??
>
>To me it's a simple calculation, at an auction when something sells for
>$50,000, but only 2 players are over $25K. When the $50K buyer wishes to
>sell..... the item is not worth $50K but the $25K that was forced by the
>presence of the $24,500 bidder and anyone who bought another copy of that
>poster at $50K because he thought it was worth it because of the auction
>price realized is in for a rude awakening... and that is ! as bad for the
>hobby as Enron stock raping a Wall Street investor.
>
>Of course teh fact that now everyone with a Cat People poster is going to
>ask $12K will bring an end to the sale. That poster is worth the same $4000
>today it was yesterday.. unless you are Bruce H and have very simply the
>best customer base there is.
>
>About slabbing collectibles... No one mentioned the reason comics are
>slabbed. One reason.. investors !!
>
>When you go to SDC and every dealer has a Spider Man #1, the only
>difference between them is how each individual dealer grades the same copy
>of the book and grading the same copy differently can mean $1000's to the
>dealer who grades it at very fine instead of the guy who honestly grades it
>at fine-very fine. So in comes a third party who will be recognized as
>the independent arbiter (Comics Guaranty Company or CGC) and places a
>grade that is rec! ognized by all dealers without dispute, so now a collector
>- or more specifically an investor - can come in & know with a reasonable
>certainty that no dealer can try to cheapen his copy when he goes to sell
>it and therefore his investment is protected. What has resulted of course
>is that a "census" of number of issues of that title has also been able to
>be manufactured so everyone can see that comics in 9.8 are rare and
>investors value them at as! much as 20x value. A Spawn #1 in 10.0 (only
>known copy in that grade) sold for over $2000 in 2003 which was something
>like 100x the listed guide value.
>
>Another way to look at it.. the comics hobby cooked up the perfect scam to
>be able to reap profits they would not have otherwise been able to get. But
>they also froze out anyone making under $100,000 a year from becoming a
>serious collector. That is very bad for the hobby.
>
>There h! as to be massive collectors at the bottom levels who become the
>bottom of the pyramid & work their way up so that years from now thety
>become the top collectors. With Heritage and others, the only thing that
>exists is the top of the pyramid today and there is no bottom, so will
>there be collectors moving up the pyramid becomes the question for the
>future and that's when the pyramid crumbles to dust.
>
>this was just my way of saying that prices of collectibles increasing at a
>pace that is faster than the populace's increasing fortunes is dangerous
>for any hobby.... including movie posters..
>
>Rich===========================
>
>
>
>
>At 06:51 PM 12/19/04, J R wrote:
> >If you're a seller, don't bother to answer that question. But if you're in
> >the majority -- someone who buys for their own collection with no real
> >intention of selling anytime soon! , if ever -- then how can this sudden,
> >recent rash of ultra-high pricing (for even some of the more common stuff)
> >possibly be considered "good" for you? Or for the hobby?
> >
> >I've been wondering out loud about this for some time... about the absurd
> >prices the "better" posters now seem to be going for on a regular basis.
> >Back in the 1980's this effect swept through comic book collecting. It
> >continued and got to the point where by now you simply must be a rich
> >person -- not doing well, but actually *rich* -- to buy and collect the
> >"really nice comics". A person of average means just can't buy them
> >anymore, even if they only eat rice and beans for dinner all year.
> >
> >Now I suppose some will trot out the worn old maxim about "something is
> >only worth what someone wants to pay for it" (as if that explained or
> >justified anything w! hen there are so many millionaires in the world). And
> >there will be others who say, well so what? That's just the way the
> >capitalist cookie crumbles and trickles down on the rest of the world. But
> >I say it's a damn shame nonetheless. Anyway, it looks like this elitist
> >shut-out is now happening to all the "really nice movie posters" -- even
> >the lobby cards!
> >
> >What can be done about it? Nothing. But let's not all of us pretend that
> >this trend is good for everybody, shall we?
> >
> >-- JR
> >
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