As a dealer, I would welcome it and I can grade posters by any
standard that
anyone sets up. I've used Warren's C-7, C-8 etc, I've used VG VF NM
etc, I've used A B C, I've used 1-10. The
practical thing is that with my customers I take the time to
enumerate every little detail. And I think I've
been successful at communicating to my customers what the actual
state of the posters are. But I'm willing
to adopt any standard that all or even a preponderance of the dealers
and auction houses agree on. I don't have the time
to lobby for a standard with all the parties and be the clearing
house for implementing the standard (and I know - nobody's
asked me !! ) --- but I would sign on. Your idea is a good one, Ron.
And no, I didn't want to say that's it's impossible.
Improbable...??? Maybe. Impractical? Not really, actually it's quite a
practical idea.
Kirby
www.movieart.net
On Jan 23, 2006, at 11:14 AM, Ron Moore wrote:
Hey Kirby!
How true! But I take it from your comment, that you don't think a
unified grading system can be established? Or that is is next to
impossible? I think it can be done. The other major hobbies like
coins, comics and sports cards are much, much larger than our
relatively small hobby. And frankly, if they can do it and get
their collectors to agree and accept a unified system then I think
we should be able to do it a whole lot easier. Maybe get the
auction houses together and develop a "standard" that they can all
agree to and then get some of the major dealers at galleries, shows
and online sellers to acept as well. Listen to everyone's comments
and try to find a middle ground that meets the majorities standards.
Ron
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Kirby McDaniel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I certainly did not mean to demean Michael's post or his experience
with Bonham's. I simply chose 10 posters - and it didn't hurt that I
had Freeman Fisher look at them for me - and the posters I got were
all OK. I agree with Ron that a unified grading system would be
good, but then so would peace in the mideast.
Kirby McDaniel
www.movieart.net
On Jan 22, 2006, at 9:47 PM, Ron Moore wrote:
I wasn't able to attend the Bonham's auction and I was not planning
on bidding with them because I couldn't attend- that is until I had
a friend in LA look at the items for me in person. Then I felt I
could at least bid via phone. My prior experience with Bonhams &
Butterfield's has not been a happy one. I never returned anything-
but that's only because I felt it was my own fault for bidding on
something sight unseen and I should have known better. I bid (and
won) many items from one of their sales a little over a year ago
and when I got the items listed in A- condition, I realized that
these were at best what I would have called VG, what Hershenson
would have called "Lesser" and what Grey would have graded as VG
4.5. The only guys I will bid with (at major auctions) on items
sight unseen are Bruce and Grey and that's because I know they have
enough integrity to acurately describe the material they're
selling. I know there are other online/ ebay dealers that are
respec!
table as well (Deke, Phil, Kirby etc.) but, there's a lot of
others that play fast and loose with condition as well.
Butterfields entire history of grading posters has been at best
horrible. I remember when Michael Schwartz was their consultant and
I used to point out severe problems with posters to him that he had
listed in their catalogs as near mint or mint. He would look right
at the problem I pointed out to him (and we're not talking about a
minor problem either- these were MAJOR), and he would matter of
factly state, "Looks mint to me". Shocking! Even though Michael
is not with them any more- the grading problems persist.
You're right in the fact that the old A,B, C grades are the loosest
in the hobby. They should be junked as they actually mean nothing.
You might as well put on a blindfold and play "pin the grade on the
poster". What this hobby needs (like all of the other major
hobbies) is a unified grading system. No more ABC, no C8 or C9's,
no Fine/ Very fine or does that really mean excellent? What we
need is something far more defined. It's the only way to get
people's confidence in the hobby to last and to get rid of the
frustration. Restoration needs to be detailed and sellers need to
let people know what the condition of the item was prior to
restoration. Bruce is good at this, but with the sheer volulme of
material he unloads on the internet every week even he and his crew
can't do that kind of detail. So far, the only major auction house
giving this kind of detail is Heritage.
Comic books have moved into this direction the best so far (in my
opinion) as they list restored books with "Apparent" grades.
Meaning, a book may only "appear" in near mint 9.4 condition as it
has been restored to that appearance. But even this doesn't denote
what condition it was in prior to the restoration. It should have
a dual grade- something like "7.5/ AP 9.4" which would denote it
was in 7.5 condition but has now been restored to appear as a 9.4.
Just an idea.
Ron Moore
Cinema Icons
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Toochis Morin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I was at the auction and unfortunately won nothing. I
did notice, however, that there were several faded
posters which people won and they were at the auction!
They saw the damage and still bid. Those buyers
knew what they bought. I wanted the IN A LONELY PLACE
insert but when I saw it person, it was so faded. A
couple who was there bought it and not for cheap.
Toochis
--- Michael B <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
kirby---
kirby, my guess is that you attended the auction or
had a dealer-friend look at the items you sought.
clearly, if you attend in person, you cannot get
burnt. people who bid absentee, like me, must rely
on the descriptions. the poster i returned was
based on my absentee bid. no one in the room
thought much of it. the description said A- .
wouldnt you think, that would be close to mint?
prior to my bid when i was providing credit info, i
was told there was a no-return policy. isnt it odd
that for the issues i raised (not only the gross
fading), i was given full credit including postage
both ways?
when a poster is returned, do not overlook the
disappointment factor of the excited winner.
so, kirby, thank you for your contribution to my
thread that you have no complaints. perhaps, its
relevance will come to me soon.
michael
Begin forwarded message:
From: Kirby McDaniel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: January 22, 2006 11:29:02 AM CST
To: Shelly Whitworth-King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [MOPO] BONHAM'S DISASTER not a disaster
for MovieArt
I bought ten posters from Bonham's and all of them
were quite good. So
I have no complaints.
Kirby McDaniel
www.movieart.net
On Jan 22, 2006, at 11:21 AM, Shelly Whitworth-King
wrote:
Sorry to hear about your disappointment, Michael.
Pretty shoddy of Bonhams to get the information on
the colour/fading wrong
AND the fact it was paperbacked not linen. I prefer
paperbacking on some of
the smaller sized pieces myself, but expect the
auction houses to get their
facts right. One would think that for framed
pieces, they would be removed
from their frames as a matter of course and checked
to make sure the
condition matched the description.
Shelly
----Original Message Follows----
From: Michael B <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Subject: [MOPO] BONHAM'S DISASTER
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 12:11:47 EST
it took about 28 days for me to get my full credit
from Bonham's on the
poster i purchased/won last month.
i won STRANGER'S ON A TRAIN insert. it was
described in A- Condition,
whatever that means. for those who know the poster,
it is a beautiful
orange
color. when i opened the package, it was
YELLOW!!!!! i called BONHAM'S
immediately, and they agreed to take the poster
back, and pay postage both
ways
(especially because of the defect/issue described
below). it was back on
the
FEDEX truck within one hour and fifteen minutes.
for a moment, i thought that, perhaps, (maybe) the
studio, also, issued the
same art in a YELLOW poster because the color was so
uniform. i called
bruce
h immediately because i knew he had this poster at
his auction, and
asked............hey, what color is STRANGERS ???
i was warned in advance on this website that the
last auction at bonhams
had
tons of faded stuff.
Also, the poster was described as linen backed. it
was not---it was on
paper, and rolled, causing damage and chipping at
the fold lines. I
learned
after the fact that many posters were photographed
framed, so the photo and
the
description insufficient.
SO,,,,,,,,,,,,, STRANGERS ON A TRAIN insert
is still on my Want
List.
anyone have it? how about inserts for ALL ABOUT
EVE or THE PARADINE
CASE?
CHECK OUT a few quality Sinatra pieces, a
Marilyn, a Paradine
Case,
and some other pieces i Have listed on ebay now.
LINK: _http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZwitnessfor_
(http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZwitnessfor)
michael
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