Wait unitl the "investment boys" get going with "slabbing" (first lobby
cards, eventually everything).
Then condition won't just be important, it will be the ONLY thing they care
about (a pure mint "unrestored" card from a crappy 1940s movie will likely
sell for more than a "fair" condition restored Casablanca card)!
Don't laugh, because they have successfully done it in other hobbies, and
those with a real love of the items slowly leave the hobby and are slowly
replaced by "investment types" (with no love of what they are buying, just
buying because they are told they are "good investments).
35 years ago, when these guys came into the comic book hobby and pretty much
ruined it, a good friend of mine named Joe Brancatelli wrote a great article
that pretty much nailed how it was ruining the hobby for those who really
loved the comics themselves. He described how at comic book conventions,
collectors *USED* to gather together and discuss their favorite comics and
the stories they contained, and how now "investors" would gather together
and discuss "pricing trends".
He concluded by facetiously saying that he passed by a group of "investors"
and watched as one of them dropped some ketchup from his cheeseburger onto
one of his purchases (this was in the pre-slabbing days). He said that true
collectors would have been greatly saddened to have a precious comic
stained, but that the investor merely opened his trusty price guide and
turned to the section on "stains" to see how much less his "investment" was
worth!
I think this hobby may be pretty unrecognizable in 10 years, especially once
many of those with true love of the paper have exited (either out of
disgust, or because they have passed on).
Bruce
On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 7:34 AM, Phil Edwards <p...@cinemarts.com> wrote:
> MOPO post of the year (2008) and far from a rant. What long time poster
> dealers and collectors have always known.
>
>
> Already in 2009 down under (just).
>
> Happy New Year.
> Phil
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Robert D. Brooks <b...@damnthe.com>
> *To:* mop...@sol03.american.edu
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 31, 2008 6:41 PM
> *Subject:* [MOPO] Condition...
>
> OK, I'm going to go off on a rant here... Been meaning to write this post
> for years, but never got around to it...
>
> Over the last 5 years, movie poster collectors have gotten a lot more
> condition-conscious. No offense, but those people just don't understand the
> first thing about movie poster collecting, and haven't bothered to think
> about it in the slightest. They just look at coin and stamp collecting,
> comic books, sportscards, etc... and (wrongly) assume that the same issues
> transfer over to poster collecting. They don't. Not in the slightest.
>
> Let me explain...
>
> Collecting is ALL about rarity. But, sportscards and coins and stamps
> AREN'T rare... Movie posters are... It's NOT the same thing.
>
> Let's break down the important factors...
>
> Sportscards:
> quantity - millions of each card
> issued - mint
> meant to be collected
> slight damage with use
> available to the general public
> typical display method - protects and does no damage
>
> Stamps:
> quantity - up to tens or hundreds of millions of each stamp
> issued - mint
> (somewhat) meant to be collected
> damaged with use
> available to the general public
> typical display method - protects and does no damage
>
> Coins:
> quantity - up to tens or hundreds of millions of each coin
> issued - mint
> (somewhat) meant to be collected
> slight damage with use
> available to the general public
> typical display method - protects and does no damage
>
> Comics:
> quantity - up to hundreds of thousands or millions of each comic
> issued - mint
> meant to be collected
> minimal damage with use
> available to the general public
> typical display method - protects and does no damage
>
> Paper Money:
> quantity - up to tens of millions of each bill
> issued - mint
> (somewhat) meant to be collected
> slight damage with use
> available to the general public
> typical display method - protects and does no damage
>
> Notice how there were huge amounts of each produced, and each was saved in
> massive quantities (with insane amounts of mintstate or near-mintstate
> examples of each item).
>
> Now, here is where we see some important differences.
>
> Movie Posters:
> quantity - only THOUSANDS of each poster
> issued - DAMAGED (folded)
> NOT meant to be collected
> destroyed after use
> NOT available to the general public
> NOT saved in massive quantities
> typical display method (linenbacking) - COMPLETELY DESTROYS POSTER
>
> Comics, coins, stamps, paper money and sportscards ALL need to create
> artificial scarcity, since each is available in such massive quantities, in
> decent condition. That's why there's been such an explosion of 3rd party
> grading services recently. They need a way to separate these huge
> quantities and make some identical items more desirable than others,
> otherwise, none of them would be worth anything. That's why you have such
> ridiculous condition premiums. There's probably twenty Barry Bonds rookie
> cards for every sportscard collector out there. So, they shouldn't be worth
> that much at all. They only are because of the artificial scarcity of
> condition that's been imposed on the market.
>
> Now, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a premium for mint posters -
> but it should be nowhere near the premium in other hobbies. Nowhere even
> remotely close (despite what some poster collectors seem to think)...
> There's only a few known copies of many of the top movie posters. Do you
> really think the one in the worst condition is worth a fraction of 1 percent
> of the one in the best condition??? Of course not. The premium is
> miniscule in our hobby.
>
> There's tons of reasons why condition is important in those other hobbies -
> there's virtually NO reason why condition is important in movie poster
> collecting.
>
> If comics, sportscards, coins, etc... were issued DAMAGED, in miniscule
> quantities, to insiders only, and were irreparably damaged in the slabbing
> process, then the condition-conscious amongst us MIGHT have a point. But,
> they weren't... You can easily compare collecting coins to comics. You can
> compare sportscards to stamps. Paper money to comics. YOU CANNOT compare
> any of those to movie posters. It's a completely different hobby - with
> completely different issues, despite the fact that, at first glance, they
> appear to be very similar hobbies with very similar issues.
>
> Almost NO comics, coins, stamps, etc... are the only known copy. Virtually
> none. Whereas, there are literally hundreds or even thousands of posters
> that are one of one. When you are talking about THAT kind of rarity -
> condition is NOT an issue. Heck, even the most abundant movie poster is
> exceedingly rare when compared to the numbers in all those other hobbies.
> There's not a hundred thousand Lawrence of Arabia roadshow one sheets out
> there - so there's absolutely NO need to separate the best from the worst,
> like there is in all those other hobbies.
>
> A penny in G condition might be worth less than a dollar. That same penny
> in MS-69 might be worth ten thousand. The MS-69 is worth so much more,
> because it's literally one in a million. One in a hundred million. That
> sort of thing DOES NOT translate to the movie poster hobby in the
> slightest. Movie posters WERE NOT created in quantity. And, they were not
> distributed to the general public. So there's no need to separate the chaff
> from the gems. They are far too rare to bother with that. There might be a
> hundred thousand Mickey Mantle rookie cards out there (or Spiderman number
> 1's), so of course the best copies will be worth a fortune more than the
> worst copies. But, there's not a hundred thousand Citizen Kane one sheets
> out there! Are there even more than 50?
>
> In those other hobbies, the average spread might be 10,000% (probably a lot
> more). The condition-conscious collectors look at that, and assume it
> should be the same in the poster hobby. But, they aren't looking at it
> critically. The spread in the poster hobby shouldn't be the same as the
> average spread in those other hobbies - it should be about the same as the
> spread in those other hobbies FOR THE RAREST OF THE RARE ONLY. You don't
> compare apples to oranges, you compare apples to apples... It should be the
> same as the spread between a Honus Wagner rookie in poor and mint, not a
> Michael Jordan rookie in poor and mint... If you don't believe me, check
> out the spreads on the common and the rare
> (comics/coins/stamps/cards/etc...). You'll easily see that the spreads on
> the widely available items are unbelievably larger than they are on the
> rarest items. There's practically no spread on the rare items (just like
> most movie posters).
>
> And, again, it's worth pointing out that (probably) 80 or 90% of the most
> important movie posters out there have all been completely destroyed by
> linen-backing (and 99.9% of them were irreparably damaged on issuance by
> being folded). Virtually EVERY major poster has been destroyed this way
> (it's funny to note that the condition-conscious amongst us are completely
> and absolutely ignorant of this fact, or simply choose to ignore it).
> That's not the same in those other hobbies.
>
> When there's a million identical items (like in coin, comic or sportscard
> collecting), you NEED to distinguish the best items from the rest. When
> there's only a handful (like in movie-poster collecting), it's nowhere near
> as important.
>
> Certain poster collectors look at the other hobbies, and assume that the
> poster hobby should be exactly the same - without taking time to see WHY
> those other hobbies have to be so condition-conscious - they don't take the
> time to think critically. They don't understand that the issues in those
> hobbies ARE NOT the same as the issues in the poster hobby. Not even
> remotely close.
>
> That's why it seems like the only people who complain about condition are
> the newer collectors, who don't understand the hobby (and the older
> collectors who have been swayed by their faulty reasoning). Those people
> need to start thinking about WHY condition is such an issue in those other
> hobbies, and whether or not it should be the same in the poster hobby. If a
> Metropolis one sheet surfaced, it would still sell for 6 or 7 figures,
> whether it was mint - or torn to shreds. It wouldn't matter (sure, if it
> was mint, it might sell for 10% more). In this hobby, condition is not that
> big an issue.
>
> The dollar-spread between poor and mint in all those other hobbies might be
> 100,000% or more (and for very good reason). In the movie poster hobby,
> it's only (perhaps) 50-100% at best. Not the same league. Not even the
> same sport...
>
> There's absolutely no need to create artificial scarcity in the movie
> poster hobby. Posters are already scarce to begin with.
>
> Of course, I didn't do a very good job explaining all of this, but you get
> my point (I hope)...
>
> Do you think condition would be an issue if comic books (or sportscards)
> were issued folded in eighths? Stamps already cancelled and stuck to
> envelopes? Coins already worn down?...
>
> Of course not...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bob
>
> PS. This is not to say that you shouldn't be pissed when someone sells you
> a poster claiming it to be in much better condition than it really is...
> Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com
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