You can add another 35 years there from me. But after a ludicrous go-around with Dave on his claimed to be first release but every Australian dealer worth their salt knows are 1982 re-release MAD MAX one sheets.... I have given up trying to convince him about anything.
I recall a similar extended round on NSFGE about a JAWS minty white. As I pretty much did my Posters 101 with Fred Zentner of London's The Cinema Bookshop; Al Reuter (the godfather of British poster dealers) Jack Banning of Poster America (you can add another 150 years right there) and went to Poster School with Greg Edwards (another 40 years there) I can say there are a couple of golden rules... one is, you don't sell or advertise something at a price stating empirically what it is unless you know what it is for sure. Secondly, you pay attention to more experienced dealers, and especially those who have expertise in specific areas. Other wise why are you bothering to even ask at all? Phil Edwards ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Hershenson To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 2:03 PM Subject: Re: [MOPO] Real Woodstock posters Hmmm... Sam, Rich, and Rick on one side, with about 100 years of experience together.... Hmmmm.... On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Richard Halegua Comic Art <[email protected]> wrote: I am in total agreement with Sam in this perspective for instance, I have some autographs that cost me beaucoup dollars that became suspect after my purchase (or trades) with someone who turned out to be not what he said he was. I showed them to a pro who said he thinks some are authentic and others are not (The more expensive ones are apparent forgeries, so it's easy to see what the scam was). They sit in a folder in my vault - all o fthem - and I have no intention of selling them. I may even destroy them so they cannot be sold by my estate someday. We're talking about maybe $15,000 in value. The fellow who looked at them for me was shocked when I told him I wouldn't be selling them. He explained that normally when he "de-authenticates" (in his unpaid opinion) the owners almost always continue to try to recoup their monies from unknowing buyers. I have no such intentions. However, before I destroy them, I plan on sending them to noted authenticators for their opinions (paid opinions I'm sure). If ultimately they are garbage, they will be treated as such. Dave is my friend, but sometimes David, I don't get you. If the Vertigo poster is faded, why argue about it?? Same goes for apparently suspect bootlegs. If you even have to question the facts, then the poster is hinky. If later it proves to be authentic - you have shown your quality by refusing to sell the product, and now your reputation would be solidified by your refusal to profit until there is proof positive of authenticity. There have been bootlegs in posters for decades. The first bootlegs I ever saw were Hard Day's Night lobby card sets almost 30 years ago. Those were the ones where the pinholes were reproduced. They may have been printed for sale as repros, but some people sold them as originals be it by intent or lack of knowledge. Woodtsock posters were also bootlegged back then and seeing as I used to sell R&R posters at R&R conventions, I never touched those either (I did sell over 3000 original Fillmore and Family Dog posters over those years). I don't find it unlikely these posters were produced after the fact, and may have sat in storage for 30 years in someone's attic, basement, garage or where ever. But regardless of that, the facts that we do have - very very many available, from one source etc - I would not trust them and ultimately, the money that I could make isn't worth the hushed whispers that I might be selling a bootleg. If I get offered any of these, they're going on the same shelf as the Star Wars bootlegs. If the day comes they are found authentic.. sell them I will.. Chances are that day will never come Rich At 11:26 AM 11/30/2009, Posteritati wrote: I recently returned one of these to a very reputable Ebay seller and my two cents in this debate is that I would never consider selling something that I was not sure was authentic. The questions surrounding it are enough to walk away (even if the seller did not take it back). I think every honest and reputable dealer has that obligation. I have a tube with other suspect items (including two minty white ENFORCER inserts) that I am not interested in selling. At the end of the day, we only have our reputation and one (or a few) posters are not worth that risk. Regards, sam sarowitz Posteritati 239 Centre Street New York, NY 10013 212-226-2207/ Fax: 212-226-2102 http://www.posteritati.com/ On Nov 30, 2009, at 7:14 AM, Bruce Hershenson wrote: Aside from whether these are real or fake, there is also the issue of just how many this guy has. He has sold them all over the place, but seems to keep coming up with more. If he had 20 or 30 of them he would have sold them all to one person and been done with it. He may well have hundreds of these, even if they ARE authentic. So this is one poster where you surely can't say, "Years can go by without one of these coming up for sale"! Also, the vast majority of posters where I say, "We have never seen this particular style one sheet before!" is a poster that is consistent with those of that year. But this one is not, as it is rolled. You write "rolled yes....a red flag certainly.....but not unheard of especially if it was a giveaway". So if it is a "giveaway", then it certainly is not "theater-used" as well. If you want truth in advertising, say it is likely a giveaway from an unknown date. Then if you sell it, the buyer has nothing to complain about. Especially because he is sure to see it over and over and over again in the next few months and years. This reminds me of the "pink" Doc Octopus Spider Man posters a guy was selling on eBay. He ASSURED everyone he had received them at the ComiCon, and that they had given away pink and red ones, and that anyone who preferred a red one could trade the pink one in to him, which bought him more time to sell more of them. Trouble was he disappeared soon after he sold his supply of pink bootlegs, never to be heard from again. Offer this Woodstock poster for sale if you want, but it is never going to sell for much, given its murky origins, and its huge supply. On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 1:03 AM, David Lieberman <[email protected]> wrote: This "everything is fake lately" hysteria is just ridiculous. The conspiracy theorists are alive and well!! (not aimed at you Freeman or Kirby!!) reasons we believe they are authentic.....given the evidence presented so far. 1. full size 27x41 2. right kind of paper consistent with the era....thin stock, glossy/semi gloss front with matte back. 3. LPIU printer union logo. 4. L hash marks on the corners. 5. Some of them have light foxing.....signs of age (so we've been told by a mopo dealer who has a few).....so they are definitely old unless someone faked foxing on a few of them. 6. Print quality is far from perfect.....which suggests authenticity........not repro. If someone were creating a bootleg/fake for resale they would undoubtedly fix the minor printing defects this has. 7. expert opinions from 3 other dealers who have actually handled them (admittedly, they like to stay out of the fray and remain anonymous). 8. I've been told that the source these came from had just a few other titles from that same time period (unconfirmed). 9. If anyone was trying to create a poster to commemorate and capitalize on the 40th anniversary.....it certainly wouldn't be a poster like this.......one that has (see points 1 through 6 above) rolled yes....a red flag certainly.....but not unheard of especially if it was a giveaway. Freeman says there really were no giveaways back then..........well, this I can't really explain...I also can't explain why this particular one sheet (see below how it differs) never seems to have surfaced before until recently. But if you think about it.....how many times have we read in one of Bruce's auctions "We have never seen this particular style one sheet before!" or something to that effect. He doesn't say it often.......but he has said it before. And could it be a commercial poster from spencers, suncoast, etc? Well anything is possible but again it just doesn't seem/feel like a commercial poster. again, here is a closeup of the one we have: http://www.cinemasterpieces.com/aapics09/woodoct09.jpg many coming to light all from the same source.....a bit of a red flag yes....but totally plausible they were tucked away all these years. it is highly unlikely someone just all of a sudden decided to bootleg this poster....one that is far from being in "high demand". look at the bottom of this poster.......it has completely different and more info. than pictures of other woodstock style c one sheets. The two that heritage has sold are different.....one of them is completely blank at the bottom (a rolled wilding poster), and the other is folded...theater issued but with no nss info..... And there are NO credits....blank on the bottom except for the copyright line, the printer union logo, and where it says C style. This one we are selling has full credits. It even gives credit to magnum photos inc. and to the photographers on the bottom right. What does that mean? Is that significant? is this a clue? So where did the supposed bootlegger copy this poster from?? Did he just create the credits?? We only have one by the way......and it is on consignment. I don't expect it to sell....but we have been pleasantly surprised before with this title so we agreed to give it a shot. And rick please get your facts straight....we have NEVER had a rolled cool hand luke one sheet. Never claimed to have one. We did have 1000's of rolled posters from 68-72...but sadly cool hand luke wasn't one of them....and we still have hundreds of obscure titles from this find that are rolled near mint that no one would ever want (well, no one except Rich H as we sent him several a few years ago)...... We have sold several of these rolled one sheets to dozens of mopo members......and not one of them has ever suggested they weren't authentic. Only you. Someone who hasn't even seen one in person.........someone who can't even tell a fake rolled Friday the 13th from a real one. so much petty jealousy in this hobby!! again.....I am more than open to pulling it at the drop of a hat. I just think that it looks and feels real so I'm going with my instinct. If anyone else has anything to add.....just let me know! ---------------------------------------- Hey, Dave, I'm not alone. Guys like Bruce were there, too. I think you're single-handedly attempting to create your own "movie poster reality" in insisting that these obvious reproductions are authentic. It's far more plausible that they're repros than they suddenly appeared out of nowhere after 40 years. It would be different if we were only dealing with the Woodstock one sheets----but we're not. It seems like over the past two or three years you've had more explanations for the appearance of rolled one sheets from the 60's---first Cool Hand Luke, then a dozen other titles. If you proclaim their authentic long enough, people will believe what you're saying is true---with one lame explanation after another for their appearance out of nowhere. I can't believe being the respected dealer that you are---the pride of eBay---that you wouldn't wait until you were ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN of a poster's authenticity--to offer it to your trusting clientele. Sure, you say you'll refund every buyer's money if the posters are ultimately found to be reproductions. But tell me, Dave, who's keeping track? You're certainly keeping track of all the money your stuffing into your pockets in the meantime, aren't you....... ---------------------------------------------------- David Lieberman CineMasterpieces.com | 15721 N. Greenway Hayden Loop, Suite 105 -- Scottsdale, Az 85260 Vintage Original Movie Posters | 602 309 0500 | Office/Gallery Open By Appt. Only. 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